THE ERROR OF SUPERSESSIONISM

[Josheb]

Many like to stand on the "forever" aspect of the covenant(s).

Deuteronomy 28:15-68
"But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. Cursed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock. Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me. The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you from the land where you are entering to possess it. The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you perish. The heaven which is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you, iron......... Your carcasses will be food to all birds of the sky and to the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away............. A people whom you do not know shall eat up the produce of your ground and all your labors, and you will never be anything but oppressed and crushed continually. You shall be driven mad by the sight of what you see. ................ So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you............... Then you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you.............. Among those nations you shall find no rest, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot; but there the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul. So, your life shall hang in doubt before you; and you will be in dread night and day and shall have no assurance of your life. In the morning you shall say, 'Would that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Would that it were morning!' because of the dread of your heart which you dread, and for the sight of your eyes which you will see. The LORD will bring you back to Egypt in ships, by the way about which I spoke to you, 'You will never see it again!' And there you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer."

Unending curses are just as much a part of the covenant as unending blessing. Unending destruction was promised for the disobedient.

Matthew 21:33-43 KJV
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, they will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, this is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes? Therefore, say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

No more kingdom for those Jews.

I'm not Gentile.

None of us are.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

I'm not Gentile.

And I am not three-headed, covered with scales, striped, or 47 feet tall. I am not a lot of things. What I am is a believer in the resurrected Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

What are you?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Of course when the Lord ‘reasons with us together’ it’s as good as Scripture…it is God’s words/thoughts, but when we ‘reason’, it’s a different story.

I agree. But my reasoning is inspired.

…and the covenant God made with Noah?

With all mankind to not flood the earth again.
Has nothing to do with the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophetic and Redemptive Covenants God was in time going to make with a certain family line.

I figured I’d get a confession out of you, though others tried.

I'm not Jewish, either.
Ta-dum!

I guess Paul was wrong when he spoke of a partial blindness over Israel?

Nope. God is the one who controls the seeing eye.

Again, God is melding the two flocks into ONE.

That comes later, in eternity. But right now there are still two groups in the world:
Covenant Israel being saved, and non-covenant Gentiles being saved.
Everyone else is there just to make it look good.

John 10:16 CSB
But I have other sheep that are not from this sheep pen; I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Take a closer look:

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
[meaning Israel]
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold [meaning Israel]: them [could He be speaking of Samaritans] also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Jn 10:15–16.

Hmmm?

 

[Mr GLee]

I'm not Gentile.

No longer or never were a pagan (gentile) . . . "pagan: without the Spirit of Christ the Spirt of eternal life ?

Abel is the first born of those born again of the Spirit of Christ. The second second born of Adam who became a pagan by doing the will of a creature seen (surely you will not die look at me and live forever. s s s s sssss. why trust a God not seen) .

Remember a Jew is one born again of the Spirit of Christ.. . .inwardly of the heart not dying flesh outwardly. If any man has not the born again Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

He is the God of many nations of colors

Jacob (the decider) the second born used to represent all born again from above, the new Jerusalem (Zion not seen) represented as the mother of all nations. (Galatian 4)

The Holy Father used Joseph as a figure of speech (parable) of the bride of many colors (nations) signified by the word Abraham the father of all nation colors in respect to the born again seed of the living incorruptible word.


Christ infallibly informs us all of dying flesh must be born again to include his own dying flesh which Jesus said does not profit as spirt life (not seen)

.Israel in respect to the Bible believing Jew (inward) It represent born again Things of faith (the unseen things of God)

Genesis 37:3 Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.

Genesis 37:6-11 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed: For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words. And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Isaiah 10:22 NKJV
For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Are you a Hebrew scholar, or is that what others have told you? Which word? What facts?

Are you qualified to work on an Old Testament translation committee? If so, why are you hanging out around Christian Forums?

If God has not called a committee to touch His Word, then no committee has authorization to do so.
And shouldn't.
But men don't listen.

Now, unless I am quoting the wrong OT passage Saul mutilates, this is where that Pharisee makes the change:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom. 9:27.

Saul! Saul! Why persecutest thou me!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Gentile Christian theological doctrine which describes the theological conviction that the Gentile Christian Church has superseded the nation of Israel assuming their role as God's covenanted people, thus asserting that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ has superseded or replaced the Mosaic covenant exclusive to Jews. Supersessionist theology also holds that the universal Gentile Christian Church has succeeded ancient Israel as God's true Israel and that Gentile Christians have succeeded the ancient Israelites as the people of God.

Of course, the Biblical status for "gentiles" is that we've been "Grafted in" (Rom 11:13-22), which, of course means that the "original tree" is still there, and the "Nations" have become part of it. so "Replacement" isn't accurate, it should be "Joined with".

Of course being a Ethnic Jew, has nothing to do with being a "SPIRITUAL JEW" - who is Born Again by FAITH is the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus.

 

[Mr GLee]

If God has not called a committee to touch His Word, then no committee has authorization to do so.
And shouldn't.
But men don't listen.

Now, unless I am quoting the wrong OT passage Saul mutilates, this is where that Pharisee makes the change:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom. 9:27.

Saul! Saul! Why persecutest thou me!

You are confusing two different Sauls

Saul could make no change God has cut of all forms of communication and he sought disembodied workers with father spirits that some call patron saints.Paganism

Just like Saul in Acts 22 having a false zeal for knowing God followed a law of what they call venerable mankind lording it over the faith of the non venerable .

Murder and torture those which oppose doing the will of venerable men seen that lord it over the faith of the non venerable .

Out of sight out of mind the Pagan foundation .Like Cain "I do not know where my brother is???????.

That Saul was given the power to hear God by which born again Paul could be used as a true apostle sent with true prophecy (sola scriptura)

Not a law of "I heard it through the fathers grapevine" .pass it around the table where it stops nobody seems to know?

I believe I am reminded . .

Revelation22: 18-21 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Mr GLee]

Of course, the Biblical status for "gentiles" is that we've been "Grafted in" (Rom 11:13-22), which, of course means that the "original tree" is still there, and the "Nations" have become part of it. so "Replacement" isn't accurate, it should be "Joined with".

Of course being a Ethnic Jew, has nothing to do with being a "SPIRITUAL JEW" - who is Born Again by FAITH is the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus.

I think we could say "grafted back in" .to the period before there were kings in Israel. . a Pagna foundation .God gave them over to do that which the atheist jews required until the time of the 1st century reformation spoken of in Hebrews 9 .

One bride called by our Holy father Christian in Acts . Literally meaning residences of the City of Christ (Zion) prepared for his bride the church A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations previous a calling her Israel.

.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Of course, the Biblical status for "gentiles" is that we've been "Grafted in" (Rom 11:13-22), which, of course means that the "original tree" is still there, and the "Nations" have become part of it. so "Replacement" isn't accurate, it should be "Joined with".

Agree. But being joined in blessings of a cup that runneth over is not the same as being joined in covenant with Israel. There is no mention of Gentiles being in covenant with the House of Israel in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Of course being a Ethnic Jew, has nothing to do with being a "SPIRITUAL JEW" - who is Born Again by FAITH is the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus.

You'll notice the New Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah describes the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob making this covenant with the House of Israel and mentions nothing about "faith" or Gentiles being part of this family covenant. There is also no mention of any "spiritual Jew" in these passages either.
But I will say the "Law" God promised to put in Israel's "inward parts" is the Holy Spirit and according to the language here in this covenant the Holy Spirit will God put in the inward parts of the HOUSE of Israel. This means all the Jews. Makes sense since Saul probably saw the same thing when he said in his Roman letter to Jewish Christians that "all Israel shall be saved."

 

[prism]

I agree. But my reasoning is inspired.

(not worth replying to)

With all mankind to not flood the earth again.
Has nothing to do with the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophetic and Redemptive Covenants God was in time going to make with a certain family line.

Still, it's a covenant. Earlier you said God made no Covenants with Gentiles.

I'm not Jewish, either.
Ta-dum!

Did I say you were? (drum roll)

Nope. God is the one who controls the seeing eye.

Yes, but since all Scripture is inspired by God (remember Peter called Paul's writings 'Scripture'?), you'd also be calling God a liar.

That comes later, in eternity. But right now there are still two groups in the world:
Covenant Israel being saved, and non-covenant Gentiles being saved.
Everyone else is there just to make it look good.

Later? They were made One through the shed Blood of the Lamb, which happened in the past..Where does Scripture say later? My Bible puts it in the past tense...

Ephesians 2:14
Christ himself is our peace. He has made Jews and Gentiles into one group of people. He has destroyed the hatred that was like a wall between us.

Take a closer look:

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
[meaning Israel]
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold [meaning Israel]: them [could He be speaking of Samaritans] also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Jn 10:15–16.

Hmmm?

That says nothing different from what I quoted...
John 10:16 CSB
But I have other sheep that are not from this sheep pen; I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

'Other sheep' are those who eventually put their trust in Jesus.

 

[prism]

Now, unless I am quoting the wrong OT passage Saul mutilates, this is where that Pharisee makes the change:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

So what did Paul write that confuses you?

This?

Romans 9:27 NKJV
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.


Isaiah 10:22 NKJV
For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Isaiah is basically hinting at Jacob's Trouble, where the remnant returns to God; Paul left that out as it wasn't pertinent to the point he was making in Rom 11.

 

[Josheb]

There is no mention of Gentiles being in covenant with the House of Israel in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

There is throughout the epistolary. Why is the newer revelation neglected in favor of the old??

You'll notice the New Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah describes the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob making this covenant with the House of Israel and mentions nothing about "faith" or Gentiles being part of this family covenant.

That is incorrect.

The writers of the epistolary often applied Jeremiah and the other prophets to all Christians, Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ. In point of fact, there are several occasions where I have shown you in particular God made the Abrahamic promises to Abraham and Jesus, not just Abraham. Furthermore, if you are going to leverage the phrase "house of Israel," then you're going to have a difficult time providing anything in the New Testament applies specifically to the house of Israel because the phrase is used only three places in the New Testament - once in Matthew, once in Acts, and once in Hebrews, and the Acts mention is to accuse the house of Israel of murdering the Messiah! NOTHING therein explicitly states any covenant applies specifically and solely to the house of Israel.

Your entire history in this forum is built on inference .

In point of fact the author of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31:31-33 and applies it to all who believe in Christ.

Hebrews 8:6-13 KJV
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Apparently that old covenant vanishing and a new one made.

There is also no mention of any "spiritual Jew" in these passages either.

I completely agree.

But I will say the "Law" God promised to put in Israel's "inward parts" is the Holy Spirit and according to the language here in this covenant the Holy Spirit will God put in the inward parts of the HOUSE of Israel. This means all the Jews.

No, it does not. Not all Israel is Israel. Not all descendants of Abraham are Abraham's descendants. Outward Jews and Jews believing the Law saves are not Israel. We know that at least one Gentile was filled with the Holy Spirit, the Roman Cornelius. We also know from the report in Acts 14-15 that Gentiles were being filled with the Spirit and converted to Christ so if "'inward parts' is the Holy Spirit" then it does not mean all Jews.

Makes sense since Saul probably saw the same thing when he said in his Roman letter to Jewish Christians that "all Israel shall be saved."

Paul also said not all Israel is Israel. Put the two together and it means there is an Israel that is not Israel and only the Israel that is Israel will be saved - all of them.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Agree. But being joined in blessings of a cup that runneth over is not the same as being joined in covenant with Israel. There is no mention of Gentiles being in covenant with the House of Israel in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

And that's TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT- since there's a NEW COVENANT in Jesus' Blood, and the OLD COVENANT has passed away.

 

[prism]

...

 

[jeremiah1five]

So what did Paul write that confuses you?

This?

Romans 9:27 NKJV
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.


Isaiah 10:22 NKJV
For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Isaiah is basically hinting at Jacob's Trouble, where the remnant returns to God; Paul left that out as it wasn't pertinent to the point he was making in Rom 11.

He was referring to when a remnant of the twelve tribes return to their homeland after Exile.

 

[jeremiah1five]

And that's TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT- since there's a NEW COVENANT in Jesus' Blood, and the OLD COVENANT has passed away.

A New Covenant God made with the House of Israel.
Not Gentiles.

 

[prism]

He was referring to when a remnant of the twelve tribes return to their homeland after Exile.

Remnant = believing Jews, not in name only.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Remnant = believing Jews, not in name only.

The prophecy refers to a remnant of the total which were carried away to Assyria and Babylon. It's called the Diaspora and only a remnant or small portion of the tribes returned to their homeland.
They remained in Gentile lands while only a small portion (remnant) returned to Israel.
It was to these twelve tribes "scattered" (James 1:1) to whom Jesus Christ sent His eleven apostles [Gr. "apostolos" = sent] in Acts 1:8, to let them know Israel's Promised Redeemer, Messiah, and King had come. It was a courtesy from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to His Covenant people. This is the original prophecy in Isaiah 10:22.

Saul is dishonest with the First Covenant Scriptures and changes the word from "returned" to "saved" thereby changing the meaning of the original prophecy to say something else entirely.

Saul quotes Isaiah but changes a word:

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom 9:27.

Isaiah did not say that:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

Saul was completely dishonest with the prophetic word.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Saul is dishonest with the First Covenant Scriptures and changes the word from "returned" to "saved" thereby changing the meaning of the original prophecy to say something else entirely.

That's not so. God gave a promise of salvation to the Israelite remnant that would return to their homeland in the post-exilic return.

Ezekiel 36:26-29 describes the conditions of this post-exilic return in terms of salvation. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statues, and ye shall keep my judgments, and so them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses...Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good and shall loath yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations."

Paul in using this OT scripture promise of equating the Israelite remnant's return with salvation was spot on in describing the conditions of this post-exilic return as being "saved" in the spiritual sense as well as the physical - just as there was an Israelite remnant that was being spiritually saved at the present time in Paul's own days.

 

[prism]

The prophecy refers to a remnant of the total which were carried away to Assyria and Babylon. It's called the Diaspora and only a remnant or small portion of the tribes returned to their homeland.
They remained in Gentile lands while only a small portion (remnant) returned to Israel.
It was to these twelve tribes "scattered" (James 1:1) to whom Jesus Christ sent His eleven apostles [Gr. "apostolos" = sent] in Acts 1:8, to let them know Israel's Promised Redeemer, Messiah, and King had come. It was a courtesy from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to His Covenant people. This is the original prophecy in Isaiah 10:22.

Saul is dishonest with the First Covenant Scriptures and changes the word from "returned" to "saved" thereby changing the meaning of the original prophecy to say something else entirely.

Saul quotes Isaiah but changes a word:

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom 9:27.

Isaiah did not say that:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

Saul was completely dishonest with the prophetic word.

Perhaps the term 'Remnant' is in question...

According to Arnold Fruchtenbaum...

"The Remnant is that part of Israel that believes in the Messiah. A believing Remnant will exist in the Tribulation. The Remnant of Israel During the Tribulation. All individual Jewish believers during the seven years of the Tribulation will be part of the Remnant of Israel."

https://faithconnector.s3.amazonaws.com/chafer/files/v6n1_3.pdf

I believe those were the ones Saul/Paul was referring to when he mentions 'remnant', and I agree.

 

[prism]

Saul is dishonest with the First Covenant Scriptures and changes the word from "returned" to "saved" thereby changing the meaning of the original prophecy to say something else entirely.

Why blame Saul/Paul, why not Isaiah?
Your attack is not on Saul, but Scripture as a whole.