• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

How Covenant Theology Can Order Our Reading of Evolution and Genesis

Nevermind. I was just checking in see if anyone was planning on replying to me. Looks like that's just not happening. No point getting into something else.
 
Last edited:
I agree that Genesis is written in the language of redemptive history and covenant, not as a modern scientific description. Scripture is not attempting to provide a technical account of natural history; it reveals creation in order to explain humanity’s relation to God and the necessity of redemption.

However, redemptive history does not float free from origins. It begins with them. Genesis is not only a book of redemption; it is also a book of beginnings, because the need for a Savior arises precisely from how and why humanity was created and fell. Covenant presupposes nature. Grace presupposes creation.

Adam and Eve are therefore archetypal because they are historical, not instead of being historical. Scripture does not treat Adam as a covenantal role assigned within an already-existing human population, but as the first man, the father of humanity, and the federal head whose act stands at the headwaters of human history. Paul’s argument in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 requires ontological solidarity between Adam and the human race, not merely a theological or symbolic association.

This is why Luke traces Christ’s genealogy back to Adam. Jesus had to be born fully human—of the same humanity that fell—and born under the law in order to redeem those under the law. Detaching redemptive history from real human origins, or reclassifying Adam as merely archetypal rather than genealogical, severs the logic of federal headship on which substitutionary redemption depends.

Genesis is covenantal and theological, yes—but its theology is grounded in real creation. Redemptive history begins exactly where we do: with our creation, our fall, and our need for Christ.
For Pauline salvation being tied into a literal adam nd Eve, to holding to a federal headship viewpoint, they would have had to special creations, the first humans on Earth
 
For Pauline salvation being tied into a literal adam nd Eve, to holding to a federal headship viewpoint, they would have had to special creations, the first humans on Earth

That does not follow in any obvious way. Please elaborate. I hold to a robust covenant theology with federal headship, and Adam and Eve not being the first humans has no discernible impact on that. I encourage you to expose why this can't hold.
 
That does not follow in any obvious way. Please elaborate. I hold to a robust covenant theology with federal headship, and Adam and Eve not being the first humans has no discernible impact on that. I encourage you to expose why this can't hold.
Where is there any mention in the bible that there existed any humans before them?
 
Where is there any mention in the Bible that there existed any humans before [Adam and Eve]?

Directly? Nowhere. But there is indirect evidence in Scripture for more humans than Adam and Eve.

For example, when Cain was banished from Eden to homeless wandering, he expressed fear: “Whoever finds me will kill me” (Gen 4:14). Notably, he does not use a kinship term like “brothers” (אַחִים, ʾāḥîm) or “house of my father” (בֵּית אָבִי, bêt ʾābî), but rather an open and indefinite “whoever” (כּל, kôl). He is not worried about revenge from his family but the vulnerability of exile, of no longer belonging to God’s protected community. He is not afraid of remaining among kin, but about being cast out from among them. So, God reassures him that divine protection will follow him in exile, such that Cain will be avenged sevenfold if anyone kills him (v. 15). [1]

A similar pressure emerges when we consider the world in which Abraham lived—a world of cities, kingdoms, and civilizations stretching from Uruk in Sumer to the Longshan in China. The global population was roughly 25 million people, about 4 million of which lived in Mesopotamia and the surrounding Near East alone. Attempting to derive that world from just eight people in only 300 years misses the demographic target by nearly three orders of magnitude. From the Flood to Abraham, the young-earth creationist model comes in about 500 times too low. The picture coheres, however, if we carry forward the population implied already in Cain’s fear, treating the biblical genealogies as covenantal lineages rather than exhaustive census records—which a redemptive-historical hermeneutic would have us do.

This also entails denying a global Flood with a universal biological bottleneck, but there are a lot of good reasons for doing that—textual, theological, scientific, historical—and rather poor reasons to keep it, which is why it’s basically just young-earth creationists who believe it.

Edited to add: I am reading a new book, The Generations of Heaven and Earth by Jon Garvey (2020), and he adds an interesting piece of indirect biblical evidence for non-Adamic humans, evidence I had not considered before. In this chapter, “Where Are All the People in Genesis,” he details nine pieces of evidence—some of which mirrors what I’ve argued here—but the one that struck me regarded Genesis 4:26, “At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.”

“Which men would those be?” he asks rhetorically. In Genesis, the expression “calling on the name of the Lord” is covenantal language typically denoting formal worship, often in a sacrificial context. Its appearance in connection with Seth’s line should therefore be jarringly unexpected. His parents had known Yahweh face to face, and his older brothers had worshipped him with offerings. It is quite unlikely, then, that Seth’s family were those who began to call upon the name of the LORD. Garvey argues that this verse “appears to suggest that some outsiders began to worship Yahweh, either under his covenant name or at least in substance.”

Now the introduction of outsiders to Yahweh, like the growth of population recorded in these chapters, would actually be a limited fulfilment of the commission that God had always intended for Adam, and so it has a logical place in the unfolding story. This mission was impaired, but not cancelled, by the Fall, just as the parallel commission of Israel, marred from the start by the rebellion at Mount Sinai, nevertheless moved forward under the hand of God.

Greg Beale deals with this at length in A New Testament Biblical Theology, tracing the commission down through its various bearers from Noah onwards, and writes:
After Adam’s sin, the commission would be expanded to include renewed humanity’s reign over unregenerate human forces arrayed against it. Hence, the language of “possessing the gate of their enemies” is included, which elsewhere is stated as “subduing the land …”
Such an understanding takes what is otherwise both a curious and (in the absence of an outside population) incomprehensible snippet of information and ties it into the whole missiological purpose of Genesis, the Torah, and indeed the whole Bible. Adam’s people are damaged goods, but God’s word was not spoken in vain. But in order for this to be the case, we need to see and acknowledge the “invisible” population surrounding the new-creation population which Yahweh has seeded into the world. Somehow people began to perceive the Lord through this family—perhaps through intermarriage, even—and to call on the name of the Lord.

Paul tells us that “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Perhaps this verse includes some of the very first followers of Christ in history.

Jon Garvey, The Generations of Heaven and Earth: Adam, the Ancient World, and Biblical Theology (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2020).



Footnotes:

[1] Interestingly, the Book of Jubilees names Cain’s wife as Awan, identifying her as the third child born to Adam and Eve and roughly fourteen years younger than Cain. On this chronology, Cain is about 32 when he murders Abel (then about 25), making Awan about 18. After Cain’s banishment, Adam and Eve live with Awan alone for 28 years of mourning before Seth is born three years later. Jubilees places the birth of Enoch about 190 years after Adam and Eve’s expulsion from the garden, making it reasonable to infer that Awan had left Adam’s household and joined Cain around that time. On these numbers, there is no rational scenario where Cain builds “houses” much less a “city” by and for himself earlier or with his wife and infant son later (Gen 4:16-14; Jub 4:9). “A city for one family is called a ‘house’,” writes Garvey. “Even if Cain and Awan lived for centuries, that kind of population growth is frankly incredible.”
 
Last edited:
“Which men would those be?” he asks rhetorically. In Genesis, the expression “calling on the name of the Lord” is covenantal language typically denoting formal worship, often in a sacrificial context. Its appearance in connection with Seth’s line should therefore be jarringly unexpected. His parents had known Yahweh face to face, and his older brothers had worshipped him with offerings. It is quite unlikely, then, that Seth’s family were those who began to call upon the name of the LORD. Garvey argues that this verse “appears to suggest that some outsiders began to worship Yahweh, either under his covenant name or at least in substance.”
This might be interesting to the notion of two human species in Genesis 6
 
This might be interesting to the notion of two human species in Genesis 6
Still cannot find any scripture that states there were humans before Adam and Eve, or along with Adam and Eve until Eve had given birth
 
Still cannot find any scripture that states there were humans before Adam and Eve, or along with Adam and Eve until Eve had given birth

Then you're not looking.
 
A population was 2 and doubled exponentially thereafter then the population would be in the hundreds of thousand within a few hundred years
I made a guess. Anyone could do the math.
I lived in a city of 11,000 people.
By the time Cain slew Able there would have been a sizable population from the intitial Adam and Eve
More than enough for the first city

population 100,000 would take 250 - 300 years
 
Last edited:
A population was 2 and doubled exponentially thereafter then the population would be in the hundreds of thousand within a few hundred years.

I made a guess. Anyone could do the math.

That works—as long as we ignore things like disease, famine, infant mortality, even a flood wiping out all life on Earth, things that would make a complete mess of that calculation.

By the time Cain slew Abel, there would have been a sizable population from the initial Adam and Eve.

Not according to Scripture. Adam and Eve first had Cain and then Abel. After Cain slew Abel, there was Adam, Eve, and the now-banished Cain. That is not a “sizeable population.”

The covenant line ran through Seth, not Cain, and Adam and Eve had Seth after Cain was banished. Scripture says that Adam lived another 800 years after he had Seth, and “during this time” (NET) or “after Seth was born” (NIV) he had other sons and daughters (Gen 5:4).

So, when Cain arrived in the land of Nod and found a wife, how many other people were on Earth? Two at least (Adam and Eve), possibly three (Seth). Not a “sizeable population,” and not “more than enough for the first city”—especially when you remember Adam, Eve, and Seth did not live there.

I encourage you to run the math again, keeping in mind that the population of Egypt during the Exodus (c. 1450 BCE) was 2–3 million.
 
A population was 2 and doubled exponentially thereafter then the population would be in the hundreds of thousand within a few hundred years
I made a guess. Anyone could do the math.
I lived in a city of 11,000 people.
By the time Cain slew Able there would have been a sizable population from the intitial Adam and Eve
More than enough for the first city

population 100,000 would take 250 - 300 years

That works—as long as we ignore things like disease, famine, infant mortality, even a flood wiping out all life on Earth, things that would make a complete mess of that calculation.



Not according to Scripture. Adam and Eve first had Cain and then Abel. After Cain slew Abel, there was Adam, Eve, and the now-banished Cain. That is not a “sizeable population.”

The covenant line ran through Seth, not Cain, and Adam and Eve had Seth after Cain was banished. Scripture says that Adam lived another 800 years after he had Seth, and “during this time” (NET) or “after Seth was born” (NIV) he had other sons and daughters (Gen 5:4).

So, when Cain arrived in the land of Nod and found a wife, how many other people were on Earth? Two at least (Adam and Eve), possibly three (Seth). Not a “sizeable population,” and not “more than enough for the first city”—especially when you remember Adam, Eve, and Seth did not live there.

I encourage you to run the math again, keeping in mind that the population of Egypt during the Exodus (c. 1450 BCE) was 2–3 million.
Your views seem to be not accepting stated historical factual information, but "filling in the gaps"
 
The covenant line ran through Seth, not Cain, and Adam and Eve had Seth after Cain was banished. Scripture says that Adam lived another 800 years after he had Seth, and “during this time” (NET) or “after Seth was born” (NIV) he had other sons and daughters (Gen 5:4).
Removed by QVQ (off topic)
 
Back
Top