THE ERROR OF SUPERSESSIONISM

[Josheb]

The church is not Gentile! The first Christians were almost all Jewish. In any case, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile; we are all one in Him.

Amen!

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ!

 

[Rufus]

Abram was Hebrew.

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Gen. 14:13.

Gentiles did not go to Egypt and become slaves. On the other hand, the Hebrews did.
Gentiles come from Ham and Japheth.
The people that were later to be identified as Jews came from Abraham, Shem, and Noah.

The "nations" and "kings that God said would "come out of thee" are the descendants of Ishmael (who had twelve sons), and Esau whom God blessed greatly.
Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham nor do Gentiles "come out of thee" (Abraham.)

God made no covenant with Gentiles. The sign of the Abrahamic Covenant is circumcision to separate the men (Jews) from the boys (Gentiles), and Gentiles did not circumcise themselves. They were what David called "uncircumcised Philistines and dogs!"

Go, King David.

By the way the "strangers" and "foreigners" are still the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. They were stranger and foreigners to the Abrahamic Covenant. They were allowed close access to the children of Israel, but Gentiles were verboten. Israel was commanded to NOT mingle with the Gentiles nor learn their ways. Nothing has changed. The New Covenant Jewish Christians were told by John and James:

15 Love not the world [non-covenant people], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 Jn 2:15.

and

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:4.

The original command of God to Israel in WHO they were to love is found in Leviticus 19:18-19, and God has instructed Israel in the desert to love covenant brethren ONLY.

The New Covenant by which the Holy Spirit was prophesied was made between God and the House of Israel (northern kingdom) and the House of Judah (southern kingdom), NOT with Gentiles.
God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles. Gentile Christians are joined to Christ by the Spirit. They are NOT joined to Abraham. God is saving Gentiles without a covenant. As a Gentile you should be extremely grateful for your salvation and stop trying to steal the covenants and promises God made with Israel.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I asked re Gen 12:1-3.

Gen 12:1-3
12:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
NIV

The question again is this: Since you claim that Gentile believers are not in a covenant relationship with God in this New Covenant age, did God make good on his promise to bless "all the peoples of the earth" through Abraham, and if so how did he do that specifically?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Abram was Hebrew from the family of Noah and Shem.
Ham and Japheth are the beginnings of Gentiles.

According to the majority of commentary on this "Hebrew" patronym for Abram, it originated due to Eber, Abraham's ancestor. In other words, the "Hebrew" term was a "thing" long before it had any connection at all with Israel or Jewish concerns.

You are making a non-related point. Apples and oranges.

 

[Rufus]

I am saying that in the Jewish Scriptures of their Law, their Psalms, and their Prophets there is NO covenant God has made with Gentiles and definitely Gentiles are not once mentioned or referred to in Genesis 17 where God makes Covenant with Abraham.
But what I do get is none response from Gentile Christians who cannot answer my question about the Abraham Covenant and instead do what you do and that is quote New Covenant Scripture of Saul merely discussing Jewish history not creating doctrine that includes Gentiles in a Covenant in which no Gentiles are part of the Covenant in Genesis 17. IF GOD wanted Gentiles to be included in the Abrahamic Covenant, He would have said so when making Covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17.

God is saving Gentiles without a covenant. The Times of the Gentiles is a one-time blip on God's radar of salvation. This is a sideshow. Everything concerning God's relationship with men is made with a certain family line. The House that will come to be known as Israel from the seed of Abraham.
You can talk about being with Christ makes you automatically included in the Abrahamic Covenant but not even Christ says such a thing. Salvation is of the Jews.

Show me in Genesis 17 where God makes covenant with Abraham that Gentiles are also included.

Really? A mere "one-time blip on God's radar"? With statements like the above, it's little wonder so many here cannot take you seriously.

Isa 49:1-6
1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me;from my birth he has made mention of my name. 2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,in the shadow of his hand he hid me;he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver. 3 He said to me, "You are my servant,Israel, in whom I will display my splendor." 4 But I said, "I have labored to no purpose;I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing.Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand, and my reward is with my God."

5 And now the LORD says — he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself,for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength — 6 he says:"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept.I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
NIV

After you ponder the above passage, then meditate on this one, as well:

2 Tim 1:8-9
8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
NIV

Except for the Gentiles, right? The Gentiles were just an afterthought of God? The Gentiles were just a band-aid solution to Israel's ultimate apostasy which occurred when the nation as a whole rejected their Messiah. I mean...God had to save face somehow, right? This is why Jesus predicted that the Kingdom of God would be taken away from the Jews and given to a nation who will produce its fruit (Mat 21:43). And this "radar blip" has stayed on God's screen now for nearly 2,000 years!

 

[Sereni-tea]

Those Gentiles would be circumcised proselytes. They are the only Gentiles Jews would allow to be near them.

That's right, is it?
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. Galatians 2:1-3

Do you see that - Titus, an uncircumcised Greek, was a companion of Paul.

But the recipients of the epistles are Jewish Christians and the writers - all Jewish Christians - referring to Gentiles would be these circumcised proselytes. If you can see the reasonableness of this then we are on the same page in identifying "Gentiles" in Saul's letters. And this is a big key to understanding more about the early church populated and controlled by Jewish Christians.

I can't see the reasonableness of what you have written, because as I said, it is simply wrong.
Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles (see above).

Stop being stiff-necked.

Yes, you are probably right about that, but still not right about the Gentiles.

The "all nations" are not Gentiles for no Gentiles come from his loins, but the descendants of Ishmael (who had twelve sons and kings did rise from his loins), and the descendants of Esau.

No Gentiles came from Abraham's loins, eh? Except you mentioned the descendants of Ishmael - they are not Jewish, therefore they are Gentiles. Likewise the descendants of Esau.

Saul writes to Jewish Christians: "Christ redeemed us (Jews) from the curse of the Law...is referring to Jews. Gentiles were NEVER under the Law. But circumcised Gentile proselytes would qualify as the "Gentiles" in Saul's letters. There would be no idol-worshiping, hard-core, uncircumcised Gentiles even three streets from the nearest synagogue at this time as everything happening in Israel and to Jews would come from their Law, Psalms, and Prophets about this New Covenant they found themselves in.

Except of course Titus (you know the guy Paul wrote to in the letter that bears his name), who was an uncircumcised Gentile (see above), and the church in Galatia which was predominantly uncircumcised Gentiles, and the Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, and so on. I will say it again - Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, not the Jews.

Let's keep reading Galatians and see what Paul says.
On the contrary, when they saw that I [Paul] had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. Galatians 2:7-9

For before certain men came from James, he [Cephas] was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. Galatians 2:12

You see, this is what the letter to the Galatians is all about - Judaisers trying to get the Gentile believers to become Jewish by getting circumcised, eating kosher, etc. This is the very thing that Paul is writing to the church to combat. He says quite clearly to the Gentiles - do not get circumcised or you are making the work of Christ come to nothing.

No, you're making them "members of the covenant" when the covenant is not even being mentioned. Saul is addressing these Jewish Christians' concern about being Messiah-followers made such by the Holy Spirit and their standing in the Abrahamic Covenant. Promises and covenants were NEVER made to Gentiles (Jer. 31:31-34.)
Tell me you agree the New Covenant described by Jeremiah is with the House of Israel and Judah and no Gentiles are being mentioned or included. Let's see if "explicit" works both ways.

You see, the Gentiles don't need to get circumcised to be brought into God's family. Paul says if you have been baptised into Christ, then you are heirs of the promise to Abraham. Baptism is the sign of the new covenant, not circumcision.

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:27-29

You have taken 3 verses in the Old Testament and seem to ignore the entire rest of the Bible in order to make your point. I, and others, have shown you verse after verse why your views are incorrect. It is up to you whether you believe us or not.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I asked re Gen 12:1-3.

Gen 12:1-3
12:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
NIV

The question again is this: Since you claim that Gentile believers are not in a covenant relationship with God in this New Covenant age,

There is no covenant God has made with Gentiles in the Jewish Scriptures of their Law, their Psalms, and their Prophets.
I have a question for you: Show me a covenant God has made with Gentiles in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets.

did God make good on his promise to bless "all the peoples of the earth" through Abraham,

Not all peoples.
Let me ask you a question: Did ALL peoples go to John the Baptist to be baptized (including the religious leaders i.e. priests, scribes, lawyers?) Because it says John baptized ALL people who lived in Judaea:

5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. Mk 1:5.

and if so how did he do that specifically?

God has worked through covenant with men. As we look back nearly 6000 since Adam and Eve God has made promise/covenant with select persons and people throughout human history. The first promise is with Adam and the woman in Genesis 3:15.

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen. 3:15.
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Another person God has made covenant with is Noah:

8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
Gen. 9:8–17.
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God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew after He changed his name to Abraham as a token of God's faith in Abraham to be a father of many "nations" and "kings" that shall "come out of thee."

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen. 17:1–11.
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God remembers His Covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and steps in to deliver His Covenant people from the 'house' of bondage in Egypt. Shortly thereafter, God gives His Law to His Covenant people, the children of Israel/Jacob, who is a son of Isaac, who is a son of Abraham.
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The New Covenant Promise to the House of Israel/Jacob:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:31–34.

Notice that beginning with Abraham God has made covenant with THIS family line of descendants.
In Deuteronomy 18 God Promised to "raise up a Prophet like unto [Moses] and HIS shall the people of Israel hear/heed.
When this Prophet like unto Moses appeared the apostle John states that [Messiah] appeared/manifest to Israel (Jn. 1:31.)
Jesus Himself states that He "was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
Israels Messiah came to Israel and taught them out of their Law sprinkling His teachings with prophecies from Israel's past prophets, prophets God sent specifically to Israel.
Messiah Himself states He will be killed in Jerusalem for His people for the purpose of THEIR salvation, an inheritance blessing God gave in covenant to Abraham and described in Jeremiah 31.
In ALL the history of this people God has NEVER made covenant with Gentiles.

When Christ sent His disciples out in Matthew 10, He commanded then to NOT go in the way of Gentiles but again, "to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

Right before Christ ascended, He sent His disciples to Jerusalem, to Judaea, to Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth (east, towards the Orient.) He sent them to herald to the twelve tribes scattered throughout the then-known world that their Messiah had come, and that God has kept ALL His Promises.

At the beginning of the institution of the New Covenant with the House of Israel the Holy Spirit of Promise was poured out upon the people of Israel as Promised by the God of Abraham. On the day the Holy Spirit arrived He brought with Him salvation that is OF THE JEWS and 3000 Jews were converted and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Enter Saul. It took approximately 13-17 years before Acts 13 from where he and Barnabas was sent out by the Holy Spirit and he traveled to Gentile lands to visit his Jewish brethren, and upon arriving at these various cities and towns went to the synagogues first and he taught the Jews that this Jesus was their long-awaited Messiah. Because of the split between the Judaizers and the Spirit-filled

For just over 4 decades the Jewish Church Christ built upon the foundation of Himself was populated with members of the twelve tribes of Israel and Gentile proselytes until the destruction of their Temple. After the Temple was destroyed God's timetable program towards Israel was put on hold for a time in order to "bring in Gentiles" in this era we now call the Times of the Gentiles" in which God is saving Gentiles without a covenant.

When the Times of the Gentiles ends, and it will end, God will turn His attention back to Israel, reclaim the 70th week, send two Jewish prophets and at the end return to fight alongside Israel against their common enemies, and then all Israel shall be saved.

AND THROUGH ALL THIS HEBRAIC AND JUDAIC HISTORY GOD HAS MADE NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES.

 

[Arial]

God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew after He changed his name to Abraham as a token of God's faith in Abraham to be a father of many "nations" and "kings" that shall "come out of thee."

God did not have faith in Abraham. Abraham had faith in God.

 

[Josheb]

There is no covenant God has made with Gentiles in the Jewish Scriptures of their Law, their Psalms, and their Prophets.

That is not true. God covenants with both Noah and Abraham and neither fo them were Jewish; the were both Gentiles.

I have a question for you: Show me a covenant God has made with Gentiles in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets.

That is a request, not a question, and why do you make requests for answers with which you have no interest? Why do you move the goalposts? This is about the claim no covenant anywhere - not limited to the law, the psalms and/or the prophets - was made with Gentiles and the scriptures were written for Jewish Christians not Gentile Christians. The answer to your "question" is:

2 Kings 5:1, 15-17
Now Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man with his master, and highly respected, because by him the LORD had given victory to Aram. The man was also a valiant warrior, but he was a leper.... When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said, "Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now." But he said, "As the LORD lives, before whom I stand, I will take nothing." And he urged him to take it, but he refused. Naaman said, "If not, please let your servant at least be given two mules' load of earth; for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering nor will he sacrifice to other gods, but to the LORD.

Ruth 1:16
But Ruth said, “Do not plead with me to leave you or to turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you sleep, I will sleep. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.

Hosea 2:21-23
"It will come about in that day that I will respond," declares the LORD. "I will respond to the heavens, and they will respond to the earth, And the earth will respond to the grain, to the new wine and to the oil, And they will respond to Jezreel. "I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"

Exodus 34:10
Then God said, "Behold, I am going to make a covenant. Before all your people I will perform miracles which have not been produced in all the earth nor among any of the nations; and all the people among whom you live will see the working of the LORD, for it is a fearful thing that I am going to perform with you.

Isaiah 42:6
I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations...

Isaiah 49:8-10
Thus says the LORD, "In a favorable time I have answered You, and in a day of salvation I have helped You; and I will keep You and give You for a covenant of the people, to restore the land, to make them inherit the desolate heritages; saying to those who are bound, 'Go forth,' to those who are in darkness, 'Show yourselves.' Along the roads they will feed, and their pasture will be on all bare heights. They will not hunger or thirst, nor will the scorching heat or sun strike them down; for He who has compassion on them will lead them and will guide them to springs of water.

Luke 2:27-32
And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law, he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said, “Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel.”

Right there in the Law and the prophets. The covenant was intended to be a light to all nations, a covenant in which salvation would be brought to all peoples, and the desolate and dark lands could be healed. Israel's failure to be that light was one of the reasons they were deemed covenant-breakers (so you should be careful about excluding others lest you suffer the same judgment).

Ephesians 3:4-7
By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

Gentiles are fellow heirs.

Now that your request has been met, met diversely, and met with an abundance of scripture, I have a pair of questions for you:

1. Where does scripture state the covenant God made is ONLY with and ONLY for Jews?
2. When do the scriptures state the covenant with the house of Israel was made?

.

AND THROUGH ALL THIS HEBRAIC AND JUDAIC HISTORY GOD HAS MADE NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES.

Noah was not Hebrew and Abraham was not Jewish. Both men were Gentiles (not from Judah), and you have been shown the prof many times from many posters.

Genesis 9:8-17
Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, "Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth." God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." And God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth."

God made a covenant with the non-Jew Noah and it was a covenant made with all flesh on the earth.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

And the flood corresponds to salvation found in Christ.

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Genesis 17:1-5
Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless. I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you exceedingly." Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying, "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you will be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Not one nation, but many; a multitude of them - every single one of them an heir of the promises made to Abraham and his seed, Jesus.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God did not have faith in Abraham. Abraham had faith in God.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. Gen. 17:5.

"Have I made thee" is spoken in the present tense, but it was only Abe and Sarai.
God commands His true-born kids when they pray for something they must believe they already have those things they pray for? This 'act' of mind is called "faith?"

God is not going to tell us to do something He hasn't or didn't or wouldn't do Himself. If He did that, in certain cases, would be hypocrisy and God is not a hypocrite, He doesn't 'play-act' with us. He says what He means and means what He says. Sadly, there are many that don't believe God's Word as written. They either ignore a Scripture that contradicts their belief, or they try to explain the Scripture away that challenges their present belief, of they bring in other Scripture to use AGAINST Scripture to try to confuse the first Scripture. People are just dishonest with Scripture. It's called sin nature.

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom. 4:17.

God commands us to do the same. He does it and He commands us to do the same. This is called "faith" And God has faith. Actually, Christ is the personification of faith. Look up the word "faith" in God's dictionary and you'll see a picture of Christ as the definition.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:23.

A "thing" wasn't revealed. But a Person was. Christ was revealed and He CAME on the day of the Feast of Harvests (Pentecost.)

Your comment reveals a one-dimensional view of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
We exist in a four-dimensional universe.
God exists in an 'extra-dimensional' reality, possibly in at least a 26th dimension or more, or in a dimension which has no dimensions since God is Omnipresent and can be everywhere in our fourth-dimensional existence/world at one time.

So, since Christ is faith personified, and it was HE which was revealed when He came into the world sent by both the Father and the Son, and Scripture says God calleth those things which be not as though they were, then God is exercising "faith" the same in which He commands His kids to do when we "ask, seek, and knock," in relation to Him. God revealing to Abe he was a father of many nations when he didn't even have a son and speaking it in the present tense reveals God who IS Faith as having faith in what He's promised Abe, that is, being a father of many nations when he had no children.
THAT'S the faith He expressed which He desires His kids to have towards Him. He's doing unto Abraham as He wants Abraham to do unto Him.
It's Biblical.

 

[Arial]

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. Gen. 17:5.

"Have I made thee" is spoken in the present tense, but it was only Abe and Sarai.
God commands His true-born kids when they pray for something they must believe they already have those things they pray for? This 'act' of mind is called "faith?"

God is not going to tell us to do something He hasn't or didn't or wouldn't do Himself. If He did that, in certain cases, would be hypocrisy and God is not a hypocrite, He doesn't 'play-act' with us. He says what He means and means what He says. Sadly, there are many that don't believe God's Word as written. They either ignore a Scripture that contradicts their belief, or they try to explain the Scripture away that challenges their present belief, of they bring in other Scripture to use AGAINST Scripture to try to confuse the first Scripture. People are just dishonest with Scripture. It's called sin nature.

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom. 4:17.

God commands us to do the same. He does it and He commands us to do the same. This is called "faith" And God has faith. Actually, Christ is the personification of faith. Look up the word "faith" in God's dictionary and you'll see a picture of Christ as the definition.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:23.

A "thing" wasn't revealed. But a Person was. Christ was revealed and He CAME on the day of the Feast of Harvests (Pentecost.)

Your comment reveals a one-dimensional view of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
We exist in a four-dimensional universe.
God exists in an 'extra-dimensional' reality, possibly in at least a 26th dimension or more, or in a dimension which has no dimensions since God is Omnipresent and can be everywhere in our fourth-dimensional existence/world at one time.

So, since Christ is faith personified, and it was HE which was revealed when He came into the world sent by both the Father and the Son, and Scripture says God calleth those things which be not as though they were, then God is exercising "faith" the same in which He commands His kids to do when we "ask, seek, and knock," in relation to Him. God revealing to Abe he was a father of many nations when he didn't even have a son and speaking it in the present tense reveals God who IS Faith as having faith in what He's promised Abe, that is, being a father of many nations when he had no children.
THAT'S the faith He expressed which He desires His kids to have towards Him. He's doing unto Abraham as He wants Abraham to do unto Him.
It's Biblical.

That was completely irrelevant to the post it is responding to. It is pure deflection and grandstanding.

 

[Arial]

There is no covenant God has made with Gentiles in the Jewish Scriptures of their Law, their Psalms, and their Prophets.

There is, as you have been shown so I won't repeat what has already been said. God made covenants with PEOPLE, long before, during and after, there was a covenant of Law made with the Hebrew nation Israel. And that covenant was related to the land and keeping the land IF they kept His covenant. Which they didn't. They broke it and God did exactly as He promised He would if they did break it. He scattered them,removed them from the land, keeping only a remnant for Himself. It was not a unilateral covenant, it was a bilateral covenant. The new covenant is unilateral and has no quid quo pro.

They were not even called Jews until much later and that technically applies to those of Judah, the southern kingdom.He never brought those scattered when He brought down the northern kingdom back to the land, if I am not mistaken.

But a covenant that encompasses peoples of all nations was prophesied in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets (OT), much of it a mystery at that time but revealed in the new covenant through Christ and His work, whose shed blood is the blood of that new covenant. So for you to make the ugly false claims that you do shows two things:

You have no understanding of covenants and the manner of God interacting on earth with mankind through them.
You still maintain the jealous ignorance of the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' day. And He told them they could not understand or believe because they were blind and were not His sheep.

 

[Rufus]

There is no covenant God has made with Gentiles in the Jewish Scriptures of their Law, their Psalms, and their Prophets.
I have a question for you: Show me a covenant God has made with Gentiles in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets.

Not all peoples.
Let me ask you a question: Did ALL peoples go to John the Baptist to be baptized (including the religious leaders i.e. priests, scribes, lawyers?) Because it says John baptized ALL people who lived in Judaea:

5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. Mk 1:5.

God has worked through covenant with men. As we look back nearly 6000 since Adam and Eve God has made promise/covenant with select persons and people throughout human history. The first promise is with Adam and the woman in Genesis 3:15.

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen. 3:15.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Another person God has made covenant with is Noah:

8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
Gen. 9:8–17.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew after He changed his name to Abraham as a token of God's faith in Abraham to be a father of many "nations" and "kings" that shall "come out of thee."

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen. 17:1–11.
----------------------------------------------------------------
God remembers His Covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and steps in to deliver His Covenant people from the 'house' of bondage in Egypt. Shortly thereafter, God gives His Law to His Covenant people, the children of Israel/Jacob, who is a son of Isaac, who is a son of Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The New Covenant Promise to the House of Israel/Jacob:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:31–34.

Notice that beginning with Abraham God has made covenant with THIS family line of descendants.
In Deuteronomy 18 God Promised to "raise up a Prophet like unto [Moses] and HIS shall the people of Israel hear/heed.
When this Prophet like unto Moses appeared the apostle John states that [Messiah] appeared/manifest to Israel (Jn. 1:31.)
Jesus Himself states that He "was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
Israels Messiah came to Israel and taught them out of their Law sprinkling His teachings with prophecies from Israel's past prophets, prophets God sent specifically to Israel.
Messiah Himself states He will be killed in Jerusalem for His people for the purpose of THEIR salvation, an inheritance blessing God gave in covenant to Abraham and described in Jeremiah 31.
In ALL the history of this people God has NEVER made covenant with Gentiles.

When Christ sent His disciples out in Matthew 10, He commanded then to NOT go in the way of Gentiles but again, "to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

Right before Christ ascended, He sent His disciples to Jerusalem, to Judaea, to Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth (east, towards the Orient.) He sent them to herald to the twelve tribes scattered throughout the then-known world that their Messiah had come, and that God has kept ALL His Promises.

At the beginning of the institution of the New Covenant with the House of Israel the Holy Spirit of Promise was poured out upon the people of Israel as Promised by the God of Abraham. On the day the Holy Spirit arrived He brought with Him salvation that is OF THE JEWS and 3000 Jews were converted and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Enter Saul. It took approximately 13-17 years before Acts 13 from where he and Barnabas was sent out by the Holy Spirit and he traveled to Gentile lands to visit his Jewish brethren, and upon arriving at these various cities and towns went to the synagogues first and he taught the Jews that this Jesus was their long-awaited Messiah. Because of the split between the Judaizers and the Spirit-filled

For just over 4 decades the Jewish Church Christ built upon the foundation of Himself was populated with members of the twelve tribes of Israel and Gentile proselytes until the destruction of their Temple. After the Temple was destroyed God's timetable program towards Israel was put on hold for a time in order to "bring in Gentiles" in this era we now call the Times of the Gentiles" in which God is saving Gentiles without a covenant.

When the Times of the Gentiles ends, and it will end, God will turn His attention back to Israel, reclaim the 70th week, send two Jewish prophets and at the end return to fight alongside Israel against their common enemies, and then all Israel shall be saved.

AND THROUGH ALL THIS HEBRAIC AND JUDAIC HISTORY GOD HAS MADE NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES.

You wrote a tome but didn't answer my question. So, this tells me that you either think God did not make good on his promise to Abraham in Gen 12:3...OR God did keep his promise but you just don't know how. Yet somehow....every single one of God's elect, whether Jew or Gentile, were gifted with God's precious grace in eternity (2Tim 1:9) -- but if we are to believe you then the Jew and Gentile must have been granted this gift on an entirely different basis! The Jews on the basis of the New Covenant and the Gentiles on the basis of what?

So, let's try another approach with a different question to see if you give me a straight answer without writing a dime novel on the internet. Here's the question: In the Ezekiel 36 prophecy, are the promises in vv. 26-27 alluding to the New Covenant?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Isaiah 10:22 NKJV
For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Are you a Hebrew scholar, or is that what others have told you? Which word? What facts?

Are you qualified to work on an Old Testament translation committee? If so, why are you hanging out around Christian Forums?

Does a Christian - even a new born believer have to be a scholar in order to read and understand the Scripture?

Here:

1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. Lk 3:1–2.

One Caesar
One Governor
Three Tetrarchs
Two High Priests

7 individuals. All men of scholarship, credentials and men of letters and accomplishments.

BUT the Word of God came to John in the desert.

The answer is NO, a person does not need to be a scholar in order to read and study the Word of God and receive revelation and understanding.
I'm totally amazed you said such thing as well as believe it.
I think I recall someone saying the Scripture was written at 5th grade level. I'm sure a child can understand it. Why not? There are such things as baby Christians that become pillars in the church without a degree or some other man-instituted form attainment scheme.

Thank God He looks on the 'heart' and not like man who looks on the outward.

 

[Rufus]

Christ is All (Col 3:11), Including God's Appointed Covenant for the People (Isa 42:6; 49:8)​

I will argue in this post that God did indeed enter into a personal, covenant relationship with the the entire human race through Abraham and ultimately through his royal "seed" (Jesus Christ).

A. All Nations Will be Blessed Through Abraham
Gen 12:3; 18:18; Gal 3:8

B. All Nations Will be Blessed Through Abraham's Seed
Gen 22:18; Gal 3:14, 16; Ps 72:8-11, 17; Act 3:25-26

C. Among the Blessings are the Gift of the Holy Spirit upon all Flesh in This New Covenant Economy
Act 2:17-21

D. Promises Spoken to Abraham's Seed
Isa 49:5-6; Gal 3:16

E. God Appointed Abraham's Seed as a Covenant to the People
Isa 42: 5-7; 49:8

F. All God's Promises Terminate in and are Fulfilled in Christ

2 Cor 1:20-22
20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes " in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
NIV

Therefore, when anyone is in Christ that person is in a [new] covenant relationship with the Father, since Christ himself is the embodiment of the eternal New Covenant (Heb 13:20), and the New Covenant is superior to the Old because it is founded on better promises (Heb 8:6). The only people on this earth who are not in a covenant relationship with God are non-believers. Conversely, all born-again believers are the
sons and daughters of their spiritual Father Abraham (Gal 3:9; Rom 4:11-12, 16). Of course, this means that all born-again saints share in Abraham's inheritance and Christ's!

Finally, another way we can know this truth for certain is that Gentile believers share the gift of the Holy Spirit that was promised only to Israel (Ezek 36); yet even so the Holy Spirit was poured on all those who believe and Peter explained this blessed phenomena by Joel's prophecy that extended this precious gift to all in these last days-- anyone on the planet -- who calls on the name of the Lord (Act 2:17-21). Again, this proves that all the promises of God are "YES" in Christ, regardless of ethnicity. Christ is OUR covenant because He is All!

 

[jeremiah1five]

Christ is All (Col 3:11), Including God's Appointed Covenant for the People (Isa 42:6; 49:8)​

I will argue in this post that God did indeed enter into a personal, covenant relationship with the the entire human race through Abraham and ultimately through his royal "seed" (Jesus Christ).

A. All Nations Will be Blessed Through Abraham
Gen 12:3; 18:18; Gal 3:8

B. All Nations Will be Blessed Through Abraham's Seed
Gen 22:18; Gal 3:14, 16; Ps 72:8-11, 17; Act 3:25-26

C. Among the Blessings are the Gift of the Holy Spirit upon all Flesh in This New Covenant Economy
Act 2:17-21

D. Promises Spoken to Abraham's Seed
Isa 49:5-6; Gal 3:16

E. God Appointed Abraham's Seed as a Covenant to the People
Isa 42: 5-7; 49:8

F. All God's Promises Terminate in and are Fulfilled in Christ

2 Cor 1:20-22
20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes " in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
NIV

Therefore, when anyone is in Christ that person is in a [new] covenant relationship with the Father, since Christ himself is the embodiment of the eternal New Covenant (Heb 13:20), and the New Covenant is superior to the Old because it is founded on better promises (Heb 8:6). The only people on this earth who are not in a covenant relationship with God are non-believers. Conversely, all born-again believers are the
sons and daughters of their spiritual Father Abraham (Gal 3:9; Rom 4:11-12, 16). Of course, this means that all born-again saints share in Abraham's inheritance and Christ's!

Finally, another way we can know this truth for certain is that Gentile believers share the gift of the Holy Spirit that was promised only to Israel (Ezek 36); yet even so the Holy Spirit was poured on all those who believe and Peter explained this blessed phenomena by Joel's prophecy that extended this precious gift to all in these last days-- anyone on the planet -- who calls on the name of the Lord (Act 2:17-21). Again, this proves that all the promises of God are "YES" in Christ, regardless of ethnicity. Christ is OUR covenant because He is All!

QUOTE:
A. All Nations Will be Blessed Through Abraham
Gen 12:3; 18:18; Gal 3:8

Interesting how you ignore Genesis 17 WHERE THE COVENANT ACTUALLY IS.

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen. 17:4–6.

Gentiles DO NOT "come out of thee" (Abraham.)

Abraham had a son named Ishmael. He had twelve sons just as Jacob did.
Isaac had two sons. One named Esau, the other named Jacob.

The "nations" and "kings" THAT DID "come out of thee" (Abraham) are the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. These are also the strangers and foreigners spoken of in Scripture as the Promise went through Isaac who was born of the free woman.

Gentiles do not come from the seed or loins of Abraham and Sarah.

And take note that the covenant began AFTER God changed his name from Abram to Abraham.
Name change signifies covenant. God made covenant with Abraham, NOT Abram.
Why do you ignore this?

 

[Rufus]

QUOTE:
A. All Nations Will be Blessed Through Abraham
Gen 12:3; 18:18; Gal 3:8

Interesting how you ignore Genesis 17 WHERE THE COVENANT ACTUALLY IS.

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen. 17:4–6.

Gentiles DO NOT "come out of thee" (Abraham.)

Abraham had a son named Ishmael. He had twelve sons just as Jacob did.
Isaac had two sons. One named Esau, the other named Jacob.

The "nations" and "kings" THAT DID "come out of thee" (Abraham) are the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. These are also the strangers and foreigners spoken of in Scripture as the Promise went through Isaac who was born of the free woman.

Gentiles do not come from the seed or loins of Abraham and Sarah.

And take note that the covenant began AFTER God changed his name from Abram to Abraham.
Name change signifies covenant. God made covenant with Abraham, NOT Abram.
Why do you ignore this?

I didn't ignore anything. It's not unusual in scripture to find the terms of covenants written in different places. What I find interesting is how you totally ignored God's opening discourse in Gen 12 with Abraham. In fact, three times in Genesis God told Abraham that "all the nations would be blessed by him" and in Gen 18 he told the patriarch that "all the nations would be bless through his seed" (Christ). And I also find it interesting that you had no answer to my question about how God would make good on that promise -- even though scripture tells us exactly how He brought that to past. All the nations are directly blessed by Christ and indirectly blessed by Jesus' father Abraham. Abraham is the spiritual father of All believers -- whether you want to believe that or not.

The only way anyone can be saved is by embracing the PROMISES of God by faith, and there are no covenant promises that are outside of Christ. ("He who has not the son, has not the Father, cp. 1Jn 2:23, )And since Christ is the very embodiment of God's redemptive covenant, then all believers are in a covenant relationship with the Father by virtue of their identity with Christ.

 

[Josheb]

QUOTE:
A. All Nations Will be Blessed Through Abraham
Gen 12:3; 18:18; Gal 3:8

Correct. Abraham was not a Jew.

Interesting how you ignore Genesis 17 WHERE THE COVENANT ACTUALLY IS.

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen. 17:4–6.

Gentiles DO NOT "come out of thee" (Abraham.)

No, it is deplorable how you ignore Galatians 3:16 and Genesis 15 in favor of Galatians 3:8 and Genesis 17. This is an excellent example for everyone to see how you use scripture selectively to fit your position and do not bend your beliefs to WHOLE scripture. The covenant was made at Genesis 15:18 long before anything in Genesis 17 happened.

Genesis 15:17-20
Now it came about, when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, a smoking oven and a flaming torch appeared which passed between these pieces. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: the land of the Kenite, the Kenizzite, the Kadmonite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Rephaim, the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.”

You've also completely failed to acknowledge it was the symbols for God who proceeded between the halved carcasses, the suzerain ritual, God pledging fealty to Himself, promising on His own life He would keep His promises. It is sheer unmitigated hypocrisy for you to accuse others of missing things when you so appallingly practice your own accusation. Abraham was the father of MANY nations, not just one.

Psalm 72:1, 17
Give the king Your judgments, O God, And Your righteousness to the king's son.............. May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun shines; And let men bless themselves by him; Let all nations call him blessed.

MANY nations; not just one nation. ALL nations, not just the one Jewish nation.

Abraham had a son named Ishmael. He had twelve sons just as Jacob did. Isaac had two sons. One named Esau, the other named Jacob. The "nations" and "kings" THAT DID "come out of thee" (Abraham) are the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. These are also the strangers and foreigners spoken of in Scripture as the Promise went through Isaac who was born of the free woman.

No. You've totally screwed that up. The nations that were the descendants of Abraham were those of God's promises, not Abraham's bloodline.

Galatians 4:22-31
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Did you catch that? The Jewish Christian Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit explicitly stated the history of Abraham, Hagar, and Sarah served an allegorical purpose = the inheritance comes by promise and faith, not works, genetics, or bloodline.

Romans 4:1-18
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness............... And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Abraham is the father of all who believe, even if they are not circumcised, and his being heir of the all the nations of the world was not through the law but the righteousness of faith.

Stop ignoring these things.

Gentiles do not come from the seed or loins of Abraham and Sarah.

Scripture says otherwise.

They are the sons of promise and of faith.

Galatians 3:6-29
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham........... Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: " That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....... Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ........ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It is those that are of faith that are Abraham's children. God preached the gospel to Abraham knowing He would justify the heathen. If a person is Christ's then s/he too is Abraham's seed and an heir according to the promises God made.

And take note that the covenant began AFTER God changed his name from Abram to Abraham. Name change signifies covenant. God made covenant with Abraham, NOT Abram.

No, the covenant began before the foundation of the world, according to 1 Peter 1:20. According to Paul, the promises God made to Abraham were made to Abraham AND his seed, Jesus, AND all who would believe in Jeus as God's redemptively resurrected Son. You've made a mess of scripture all because.....

Why do you ignore this?

Pot meet kettle.

Genesis 15:18 precedes Genesis 17:5 by more than a decade. Do not ignore it. Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born and 99 years old when God told him he'd bear the promised son through which Abram/Abraham would be the father of many nations. That 13 years apart. You also ignored something else: Ishmael was circumcised! Ishmael was part of the covenant promises but he was not the son through whom the promises of God would be made because he wasn't the promised son.

Jesus is the promised son!!!


Why do you ignore this?

 

[jeremiah1five]

I didn't ignore anything. It's not unusual in scripture to find the terms of covenants written in different places. What I find interesting is how you totally ignored God's opening discourse in Gen 12 with Abraham. In fact, three times in Genesis God told Abraham that "all the nations would be blessed by him" and in Gen 18 he told the patriarch that "all the nations would be bless through his seed" (Christ). And I also find it interesting that you had no answer to my question about how God would make good on that promise -- even though scripture tells us exactly how He brought that to past. All the nations are directly blessed by Christ and indirectly blessed by Jesus' father Abraham. Abraham is the spiritual father of All believers -- whether you want to believe that or not.

The only way anyone can be saved is by embracing the PROMISES of God by faith, and there are no covenant promises that are outside of Christ. ("He who has not the son, has not the Father, cp. 1Jn 2:23, )And since Christ is the very embodiment of God's redemptive covenant, then all believers are in a covenant relationship with the Father by virtue of their identity with Christ.

Nowhere in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets has God ever made covenant with Gentiles.
If you want to interpret "nations" as Gentiles when there is no indication it means Gentiles, then you're being dishonest with Scripture.
The "nations" that did come from "out of thee" (Abraham) are the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. There is more basis of this since the covenant says, "OUT OF THEE" (ABRAHAM), and Gentiles do not come from "OUT OF THEE" (ABRAHAM.)
Have at it.
I've posted the truth.

 

[Josheb]

Nowhere in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets has God ever made covenant with Gentiles.

This has already been addressed be me and others more than once. You are incorrect.

I've posted the truth.

Scripture says otherwise.


And you are chewing up pages of the thread arguing over something few if any here believe. Gentile converts to Christ are grafted into the tree that is Christ, and we are grafted into that tree alongside the branches of Jewish converts. The Church does not replace Israel. Who here is a supersessionist?

 

[Rufus]

Nowhere in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets has God ever made covenant with Gentiles.
If you want to interpret "nations" as Gentiles when there is no indication it means Gentiles, then you're being dishonest with Scripture.
The "nations" that did come from "out of thee" (Abraham) are the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. There is more basis of this since the covenant says, "OUT OF THEE" (ABRAHAM), and Gentiles do not come from "OUT OF THEE" (ABRAHAM.)
Have at it.
I've posted the truth.

I guess you don't want to understand that THE covenant is Christ (Isa 42: 5-7; 49:8). To be in Him is to be in covenant relationship with the Father. It's as simple as that. AND...this explains how all the nations would be blessed through Abraham and his "seed" (Christ), which by the way is part of the covenant promise.