THE ERROR OF SUPERSESSIONISM

[jeremiah1five]

I guess you don't want to understand that THE covenant is Christ (Isa 42: 5-7; 49:8). To be in Him is to be in covenant relationship with the Father. It's as simple as that.

scripture says that God will send a great delusion upon the world and interacting with some members here who evidence that delusion I thank God I am not among those He's chosen to delude. As it says, none are so blind as those who choose to will not see. A true Christian is one who receives the Word of their God as revealed and written. And since you've never claimed to be Christian and your willingness to not receive the Word of God as written I cannot help you. I know the Scripture gives identity to those termed "nations" and "kings" in Genesis 17 which are they to whom are part of the Abrahamic Covenant and enjoy its blessings.
Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham and Sarah. But a people soon to be called "children of Israel" do and the Covenant passed from Abraham the father to Isaac the son and to Jacob the grandson - a family covenant that excluded Gentiles.
Scripture says these "nations" and "kings" will "come out of thee" (Abraham) meaning his seed, and his seed of Promise went to Isaac and Jacob and Jacob's twelve sons. Scripture also reveals Abraham had another son named Ishmael and God gave this man 12 sons as well. And through Abraham to Isaac who had a son along with Jacob named Esau, God made this man a great people and along with Ishmael, seed that came "out of thee" (Abraham), these children did receive blessings that Scripture records and they are the "nations" and "kings" that did come "out of thee" (Abraham.)

Gentile Christians are joined to Christ. But never does Scripture say that Gentiles who did not "come out of thee" (Abraham) are joined to Israel. The only Gentiles joined to Israel are proselytes. Now, in order to be a proselyte, one has to be circumcised by a Rabbi, and make all their commitments under the Law to loyalty to Yahweh and Israel, and I know you've never done that, so, you remain separated from the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants. promise, and separated from Israel.

AND...this explains how all the nations would be blessed through Abraham and his "seed" (Christ), which by the way is part of the covenant

ibid.

God made no covenant with Gentiles.

Re-read the words "out of thee" (Abraham) and when you come to the knowledge of the truth come back here and obey Scripture and let it inform your beliefs rather than you - as others do - tell Scripture what to say.

 

[Rufus]

scripture says that God will send a great delusion upon the world and interacting with some members here who evidence that delusion I thank God I am not among those He's chosen to delude. As it says, none are so blind as those who choose to will not see. A true Christian is one who receives the Word of their God as revealed and written. And since you've never claimed to be Christian and your willingness to not receive the Word of God as written I cannot help you. I know the Scripture gives identity to those termed "nations" and "kings" in Genesis 17 which are they to whom are part of the Abrahamic Covenant and enjoy its blessings.
Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham and Sarah. But a people soon to be called "children of Israel" do and the Covenant passed from Abraham the father to Isaac the son and to Jacob the grandson - a family covenant that excluded Gentiles.
Scripture says these "nations" and "kings" will "come out of thee" (Abraham) meaning his seed, and his seed of Promise went to Isaac and Jacob and Jacob's twelve sons. Scripture also reveals Abraham had another son named Ishmael and God gave this man 12 sons as well. And through Abraham to Isaac who had a son along with Jacob named Esau, God made this man a great people and along with Ishmael, seed that came "out of thee" (Abraham), these children did receive blessings that Scripture records and they are the "nations" and "kings" that did come "out of thee" (Abraham.)

Gentile Christians are joined to Christ. But never does Scripture say that Gentiles who did not "come out of thee" (Abraham) are joined to Israel. The only Gentiles joined to Israel are proselytes. Now, in order to be a proselyte, one has to be circumcised by a Rabbi, and make all their commitments under the Law to loyalty to Yahweh and Israel, and I know you've never done that, so, you remain separated from the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants. promise, and separated from Israel.

ibid.

God made no covenant with Gentiles.

Re-read the words "out of thee" (Abraham) and when you come to the knowledge of the truth come back here and obey Scripture and let it inform your beliefs rather than you - as others do - tell Scripture what to say.

I have never argued from Gen 17:6 but rather initially from Gen 12:3, so why do you waste everyone's time and bandwidth with non-sequitar arguments!? (Rhetorical question, of course. I know why.) You are blinded by your own unbiblical presuppositions and you have no answer as to how or when God made good on his promise to Abraham in Gen 12:3. What you refuse to see is that there are two "lineages" that "come out of" Abraham: physical and spiritual. The Mosaic Covenant fulfilled the temporal, visible and physical components to the Abrahamic Covenant, while the eternal New Covenant (the embodiment of which is Christ!) fulfills the eternal, invisible, spiritual components, i.e. Abraham's spiritual seed which is HOW God fulfilled his promise to Abraham in Gen 12.3 re the nations' blessing, most especially through Abraham's one seed -- the Messiah!

I will unpack this argument some more later -- a typological argument basically.

 

[Rufus]

The Great Significance to God's Initial Remarks to Abraham in Gen 12:1-3​

For Christians who revere and want to honor God's Word, we understand that context is king in the scriptures. The reason the above passage is so important is its chronological place in the Pentateuch. Genesis 12 follows on the heels of Genesis 11 in which God just got done punishing the entire world [again] for its idolatrous ways and its refusal to obey the creation mandate to populate the entire earth. So, after revealing Abram's lineage, chapter 12 begins with God revealing his covenant to him in a very succinct, abbreviated, condensed format, of which all the promises therein were repeated in one form or another later on in Abram's history or elsewhere in the OT.

The reason why v.3 in particular is so important is that even though mankind in Gen 11 (which eventually became the nations) was still obstinate, disobedient and unfaithful toward God, God determined to not give up on the world as evidenced by the promise He made to Abram in this verse! He would, yet, bless all the nations of the world through one man (Abram), then through one nation (ultimately the Messiah) -- in spite of the world's rebellious spirit. In short, the one nation of Israel would be God's conduit to reach all the nations of the world with the Gospel, which is why it is said that "salvation is from the Jews" (Jn 4:22)! Because of this passage's place in the Pentateuch, we can now quickly see that @jeremiah1five's insipid claim that the Gentiles were but a tiny blip on God's radar screen is an absurdly shallow remark that couldn't even hold a tiny mud puddle.

Corporate Israel was always called to be a "light" to the nations -- to be God's faithful witnesses in this dark world (Isa 49:6). Of course, Israel failed dismally to fulfill its mission. But thanks be to God that the True Israel -- God's Anointed One, as Israel's antitype, picked up the apostate nation's spiritual slack and fulfilled their mission (Isa 49:1-6). After all, we mustn't forget that Jesus did come into this world to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Mat 5:17).

But even before the ancient Hebrews became a nation -- before they became a geopolitical entity with physical land and borders - we see this underlying salvific theme for the Gentiles played out in the Exodus account. As most of us know the Exodus of the Hebrews is a major theme in the bible that is uber-rich in typology. The temporal, visible, physical redemption of God's chosen people in the Exodus is a type of eternal, invisible, spiritual redemption of God's elect in this New Covenant economy. One of the big lessons we learn from the Exodus out of Egypt narrative is that the ancient Hebrews did not leave Egypt alone! We learn that the number of Israelites who left Egypt was about 600,000 men besides women and children; but additionally there were also "many other people who went up with them" (Ex 12:37-38)! (Who else could these "many other people" be if not Gentiles!?) And to see a very instructive parallel passage in the NT wherein the "most" and the "many" are inverted, see Rev 7:1-10. The remnant of saved Jews was so "few" they could be numbered, albeit symbolically as the "144,000"; whereas the number of Gentile saints were so numerous they defied an accounting!

Furthermore, God did not forget the Gentiles when he gave his Law to the Israelites through Moses. He made provisions for the "foreigners" and "strangers" who wanted to live in the Land with the Israelites. In fact, even before then, going back again to the Exodus, God made a provision for Gentiles who wanted to partcipate in the Passover Feast and partake of the meal (Exodus 12).

Then we have another fascinating passage in Isaiah. This one directed toward corporate Israel:

Isa 44:1-5
But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel , whom I have chosen. 2 This is what the LORD says — he who made you, who formed you in the womb,and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,and my blessing on your descendants. 4 They will spring up like grass in a meadow, like poplar trees by flowing streams. 5 One will say, 'I belong to the LORD'; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,'and will take the name Israel.
NIV

Note carefully v,5. Some "will take the name Israel". Who else could this be but the NC Church who is the Israel of God (Gal 6:16). And, yet, notice carefully in 3 how God would pour out his blessing upon Jacob's "descendants" -- a blessing that would not occur until this NC age in which the Holy Spirit was gifted to God's elect. What Isaiah did here was reiterate that portion of God's promise to Abram that the nations would be blessed through him! He's not talking about ethnic Jews because what would be the point in stating the obvious? Ethnic Jews already call themselves "by the name of Jacob", for example. Verse 5 only makes sense if Isaiah was talking about OTHER people doing those things mentioned in the verse!

Finally, we have these words by Paul:

Rom 15:8-12
8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:

"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing hymns to your name."

10 Again, it says,

"Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."

11 And again,

"Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and sing praises to him, all you peoples."

12 And again, Isaiah says,

"The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
the Gentiles will hope in him."
NIV

Verse 9 appears to be alluding to Ps 18:49. Verse 10 is alluding to Deut 32:43; Ps 66:1-4; 97:1; Isa 24:14-16, etc. Verse 11 is alluding to Ps 66:8, 32; 67:3-4; 68:32; 96:1; 117:1; 138:4-5; Isa 42:10-12, etc. And verse 12 is alluding to Isa 11:1, 10; 49:10; Ps 22:27-28; 72:8-10; 17; Isa 42:1-4; 49:6; Dan 7:14; Mic 4:1-3; 5:4.

So, why does the OT repeatedly exhort the nations to rejoice in the Lord, to praise Him, to sing to Him, to hope in Him, to trust in Him, to look for His righteous rule, to hope for His justice, etc., etc.? The answer to this all-important, multi-tiered questiion is found in vv. 8-9 above. The answer in short: Because of all the covenant promises made to the patriarchs. And this kinda brings us full circle back to Gen 12:1-3, doesn't it? There is very obviously an inextricalbe link between the covenant promises made to the patriarchs and the salvation of the Gentiles. And who came into this world to "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets in every possible sense of this word -- to obey his Father's law perfectly, to fulfill all messianic prophecies and to fulfill all his Father's promises (Mat 5:17)? And yet, I'm accused (as other like-minded saints here have been) of not believing the scriptures! Go figue.

We should all rejoice and praise God and offer up sacrfices of thanksgiving to Him that Jn 3:16 does not read: For God so loved Israel that He gave his only begotten Son... that mankind was never just a blip on God's radar, or an afterthought, or as dispensationalists are fond of saying: a mere parenthetical interruption in God's much larger program for Israel.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I have never argued from Gen 17:6 but rather initially from Gen 12:3, so why do you waste everyone's time and bandwidth with non-sequitar arguments!? (Rhetorical question, of course. I know why.) You are blinded by your own unbiblical presuppositions and you have no answer as to how or when God made good on his promise to Abraham in Gen 12:3. What you refuse to see is that there are two "lineages" that "come out of" Abraham: physical and spiritual. The Mosaic Covenant fulfilled the temporal, visible and physical components to the Abrahamic Covenant, while the eternal New Covenant (the embodiment of which is Christ!) fulfills the eternal, invisible, spiritual components, i.e. Abraham's spiritual seed which is HOW God fulfilled his promise to Abraham in Gen 12.3 re the nations' blessing, most especially through Abraham's one seed -- the Messiah!

I will unpack this argument some more later -- a typological argument basically.

Genesis 12 is not a covenant. The covenant is Genesis 17. God calls it a covenant and it says its a covenant.
Any "lineages" that come out of the Abrahamic Covenant and later with the children of Israel belong to Abraham and the children of Israel for God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles nor the seed of any Gentile.

The New Covenant in Jeremiah is with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
There are no Gentiles mentioned and NONE intended. When Christ came, He came to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. When Christ sent His disciples, He sent them to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Christ is the fulfillment of prophecies and covenants made with the House of Israel.
God spent 4000 years dealing with a certain family line and spent 4000 years raising, guarding, defending, protecting, commanding a family that eventually became the children of Israel which today we call "Jew" and you're going to tell me the first words out of Yahweh's mouth is to Gentiles?
LOL.
Attempting theft of another peoples' inheritance from God is sin.
But if you're here long enough, when the two Jewish witnesses God sends to Israel will clear all this Gentile "doctrine" up that the Gentile Church replaces Israel or that Gentile Christians are spiritual Israel. And when they do and when God removes Israel's blindness, Gentile Christians are not going to like it one bit and will be among those God gathers against Israel for Armageddon.
Being used by God to make His Bride, Israel, jealous will not sit well with them.
Nope. Not one bit.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Great Significance to God's Initial Remarks to Abraham in Gen 12:1-3​

For Christians who revere and want to honor God's Word, we understand that context is king in the scriptures. The reason the above passage is so important is its chronological place in the Pentateuch. Genesis 12 follows on the heels of Genesis 11 in which God just got done punishing the entire world [again] for its idolatrous ways and its refusal to obey the creation mandate to populate the entire earth. So, after revealing Abram's lineage, chapter 12 begins with God revealing his covenant to him in a very succinct, abbreviated, condensed format, of which all the promises therein were repeated in one form or another later on in Abram's history or elsewhere in the OT.

The reason why v.3 in particular is so important is that even though mankind in Gen 11 (which eventually became the nations) was still obstinate, disobedient and unfaithful toward God, God determined to not give up on the world as evidenced by the promise He made to Abram in this verse! He would, yet, bless all the nations of the world through one man (Abram), then through one nation (ultimately the Messiah) -- in spite of the world's rebellious spirit. In short, the one nation of Israel would be God's conduit to reach all the nations of the world with the Gospel, which is why it is said that "salvation is from the Jews" (Jn 4:22)! Because of this passage's place in the Pentateuch, we can now quickly see that @jeremiah1five's insipid claim that the Gentiles were but a tiny blip on God's radar screen is an absurdly shallow remark that couldn't even hold a tiny mud puddle.

Corporate Israel was always called to be a "light" to the nations -- to be God's faithful witnesses in this dark world (Isa 49:6). Of course, Israel failed dismally to fulfill its mission. But thanks be to God that the True Israel -- God's Anointed One, as Israel's antitype, picked up the apostate nation's spiritual slack and fulfilled their mission (Isa 49:1-6). After all, we mustn't forget that Jesus did come into this world to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Mat 5:17).

But even before the ancient Hebrews became a nation -- before they became a geopolitical entity with physical land and borders - we see this underlying salvific theme for the Gentiles played out in the Exodus account. As most of us know the Exodus of the Hebrews is a major theme in the bible that is uber-rich in typology. The temporal, visible, physical redemption of God's chosen people in the Exodus is a type of eternal, invisible, spiritual redemption of God's elect in this New Covenant economy. One of the big lessons we learn from the Exodus out of Egypt narrative is that the ancient Hebrews did not leave Egypt alone! We learn that the number of Israelites who left Egypt was about 600,000 men besides women and children; but additionally there were also "many other people who went up with them" (Ex 12:37-38)! (Who else could these "many other people" be if not Gentiles!?) And to see a very instructive parallel passage in the NT wherein the "most" and the "many" are inverted, see Rev 7:1-10. The remnant of saved Jews was so "few" they could be numbered, albeit symbolically as the "144,000"; whereas the number of Gentile saints were so numerous they defied an accounting!

Furthermore, God did not forget the Gentiles when he gave his Law to the Israelites through Moses. He made provisions for the "foreigners" and "strangers" who wanted to live in the Land with the Israelites. In fact, even before then, going back again to the Exodus, God made a provision for Gentiles who wanted to partcipate in the Passover Feast and partake of the meal (Exodus 12).

Then we have another fascinating passage in Isaiah. This one directed toward corporate Israel:

Isa 44:1-5
But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel , whom I have chosen. 2 This is what the LORD says — he who made you, who formed you in the womb,and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,and my blessing on your descendants. 4 They will spring up like grass in a meadow, like poplar trees by flowing streams. 5 One will say, 'I belong to the LORD'; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,'and will take the name Israel.
NIV

Note carefully v,5. Some "will take the name Israel". Who else could this be but the NC Church who is the Israel of God (Gal 6:16). And, yet, notice carefully in 3 how God would pour out his blessing upon Jacob's "descendants" -- a blessing that would not occur until this NC age in which the Holy Spirit was gifted to God's elect. What Isaiah did here was reiterate that portion of God's promise to Abram that the nations would be blessed through him! He's not talking about ethnic Jews because what would be the point in stating the obvious? Ethnic Jews already call themselves "by the name of Jacob", for example. Verse 5 only makes sense if Isaiah was talking about OTHER people doing those things mentioned in the verse!

Finally, we have these words by Paul:

Rom 15:8-12
8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:

"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing hymns to your name."

10 Again, it says,

"Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."

11 And again,

"Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and sing praises to him, all you peoples."

12 And again, Isaiah says,

"The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
the Gentiles will hope in him."
NIV

Verse 9 appears to be alluding to Ps 18:49. Verse 10 is alluding to Deut 32:43; Ps 66:1-4; 97:1; Isa 24:14-16, etc. Verse 11 is alluding to Ps 66:8, 32; 67:3-4; 68:32; 96:1; 117:1; 138:4-5; Isa 42:10-12, etc. And verse 12 is alluding to Isa 11:1, 10; 49:10; Ps 22:27-28; 72:8-10; 17; Isa 42:1-4; 49:6; Dan 7:14; Mic 4:1-3; 5:4.

So, why does the OT repeatedly exhort the nations to rejoice in the Lord, to praise Him, to sing to Him, to hope in Him, to trust in Him, to look for His righteous rule, to hope for His justice, etc., etc.? The answer to this all-important, multi-tiered questiion is found in vv. 8-9 above. The answer in short: Because of all the covenant promises made to the patriarchs. And this kinda brings us full circle back to Gen 12:1-3, doesn't it? There is very obviously an inextricalbe link between the covenant promises made to the patriarchs and the salvation of the Gentiles. And who came into this world to "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets in every possible sense of this word -- to obey his Father's law perfectly, to fulfill all messianic prophecies and to fulfill all his Father's promises (Mat 5:17)? And yet, I'm accused (as other like-minded saints here have been) of not believing the scriptures! Go figue.

We should all rejoice and praise God and offer up sacrfices of thanksgiving to Him that Jn 3:16 does not read: For God so loved Israel that He gave his only begotten Son... that mankind was never just a blip on God's radar, or an afterthought, or as dispensationalists are fond of saying: a mere parenthetical interruption in God's much larger program for Israel.

Heresy.
God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
He is not the God of Manny, Moe, and Jack.

 

[Arial]

Heresy.
God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
He is not the God of Manny, Moe, and Jack.

The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob is my God. He is the God of all who are in Christ through faith. What is wrong with you? And what are you trying to accomplish?

 

[Arial]

Genesis 12 is not a covenant. The covenant is Genesis 17. God calls it a covenant and it says its a covenant.
Any "lineages" that come out of the Abrahamic Covenant and later with the children of Israel belong to Abraham and the children of Israel for God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles nor the seed of any Gentile.

The New Covenant in Jeremiah is with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
There are no Gentiles mentioned and NONE intended. When Christ came, He came to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. When Christ sent His disciples, He sent them to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Christ is the fulfillment of prophecies and covenants made with the House of Israel.
God spent 4000 years dealing with a certain family line and spent 4000 years raising, guarding, defending, protecting, commanding a family that eventually became the children of Israel which today we call "Jew" and you're going to tell me the first words out of Yahweh's mouth is to Gentiles?
LOL.
Attempting theft of another peoples' inheritance from God is sin.
But if you're here long enough, when the two Jewish witnesses God sends to Israel will clear all this Gentile "doctrine" up that the Gentile Church replaces Israel or that Gentile Christians are spiritual Israel. And when they do and when God removes Israel's blindness, Gentile Christians are not going to like it one bit and will be among those God gathers against Israel for Armageddon.
Being used by God to make His Bride, Israel, jealous will not sit well with them.
Nope. Not one bit.

You sound like a jealous baby. Just like God said the Jews would when He also covenanted with all nations and not just them, and a far superior covenant it is.

 

[Rufus]

Genesis 12 is not a covenant. The covenant is Genesis 17. God calls it a covenant and it says its a covenant.
Any "lineages" that come out of the Abrahamic Covenant and later with the children of Israel belong to Abraham and the children of Israel for God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles nor the seed of any Gentile.

The New Covenant in Jeremiah is with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
There are no Gentiles mentioned and NONE intended. When Christ came, He came to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. When Christ sent His disciples, He sent them to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Christ is the fulfillment of prophecies and covenants made with the House of Israel.
God spent 4000 years dealing with a certain family line and spent 4000 years raising, guarding, defending, protecting, commanding a family that eventually became the children of Israel which today we call "Jew" and you're going to tell me the first words out of Yahweh's mouth is to Gentiles?
LOL.
Attempting theft of another peoples' inheritance from God is sin.
But if you're here long enough, when the two Jewish witnesses God sends to Israel will clear all this Gentile "doctrine" up that the Gentile Church replaces Israel or that Gentile Christians are spiritual Israel. And when they do and when God removes Israel's blindness, Gentile Christians are not going to like it one bit and will be among those God gathers against Israel for Armageddon.
Being used by God to make His Bride, Israel, jealous will not sit well with them.
Nope. Not one bit.

Yes, the New Covenant in Jeremiah is with the Israelites. But you forget several things. One is that Gentile believers are grafted into the "cultivated olive tree" (House of Israel), so that God today still has ONE PEOPLE, i.e. his Church, also known as the Israel of God. Gentile believers could only be "grafted in" spiritually!

Secondly, since Christ himself is the antitype to Israel, all believers in Him are his brothers, and sisters and mothers, etc. Again...the Israel of God.

Thirdly, all believers, regardless of ethnicity, who have the faith of Abraham are also the sons and daughters of Abraham.

And lastly, Christ is the embodiment of the New Covenant, which, again, means that all believers in Him are in covenant relationship with the Father.

And, yes, the first words out of YHWH's mouth was to Adam. And I don't think He was Jewish.

Israel was always a means to an end -- the end being the salvation of the nations, that is to say, "a great multitude that no one could number from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb" (Rev 7:9-10), so you can stick this irrefutable truth in your hash pipe and puff on it. As stated in my last post, on the final day, the number of elect Gentiles will far outnumber the elect Israelites. But...even so...both Jews and Gentiles will be ONE People in Christ, as they are currently -- whether you like it or not.

For God so loved the world ([the elect of] the nations) that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (Jn 3:16) This passage alone shatters your entire heresy.

And in closing, meditate on this passage:

Matt 21:43-22:1
43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. 44 "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust." 45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46 And when they sought to seize Him, they feared the multitudes, because they held Him to be a prophet.
NASB

You know who that "nation" was to whom the kingdom was given? if you don't, give me a shout. Don't be shy.

 

[Rufus]

The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob is my God. He is the God of all who are in Christ through faith. What is wrong with you? And what are you trying to accomplish?

He obviously has an entitlement mentality which means he has no real understanding of God's grace. He has taken a privilege and turned it on its head to make it a right!

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes, the New Covenant in Jeremiah is with the Israelites. But you forget several things. One is that Gentile believers are grafted into the "cultivated olive tree" (House of Israel), so that God today still has ONE PEOPLE, i.e. his Church, also known as the Israel of God. Gentile believers could only be "grafted in" spiritually!

Secondly, since Christ himself is the antitype to Israel, all believers in Him are his brothers, and sisters and mothers, etc. Again...the Israel of God.

Thirdly, all believers, regardless of ethnicity, who have the faith of Abraham are also the sons and daughters of Abraham.

And lastly, Christ is the embodiment of the New Covenant, which, again, means that all believers in Him are in covenant relationship with the Father.

And, yes, the first words out of YHWH's mouth was to Adam. And I don't think He was Jewish.

Israel was always a means to an end -- the end being the salvation of the nations, that is to say, "a great multitude that no one could number from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb" (Rev 7:9-10), so you can stick this irrefutable truth in your hash pipe and puff on it. As stated in my last post, on the final day, the number of elect Gentiles will far outnumber the elect Israelites. But...even so...both Jews and Gentiles will be ONE People in Christ, as they are currently -- whether you like it or not.

For God so loved the world ([the elect of] the nations) that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (Jn 3:16) This passage alone shatters your entire heresy.

And in closing, meditate on this passage:

Matt 21:43-22:1
43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. 44 "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust." 45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46 And when they sought to seize Him, they feared the multitudes, because they held Him to be a prophet.
NASB

You know who that "nation" was to whom the kingdom was given? if you don't, give me a shout. Don't be shy.

Gentile proselytes, like the Ethiopian eunuch, are grafted into Israel. The spiritual body of Christ is not grafted into the natural olive tree as you know flesh and spirit do not mix.
Make distinction.

 

[Rufus]

Gentile proselytes, like the Ethiopian eunuch, are grafted into Israel. The spiritual body of Christ is not grafted into the natural olive tree as you know flesh and spirit do not mix.
Make distinction.

The Ethiopian eunuch was not a proselyte of Judaism. The Holy Spirit sent Philip to the eunuch to preach the Gospel. And then he was baptized. Nor was Paul in Rom 11 talking about Jewish proselytes. He directed his remarks to gentile Christians. In fact, he begins his remarks in part with, "Rather because of their (Jews') transgression (rejection of their Messiah), salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious" (Rom 11:11)

The concept of spiritual seed is taught throughout scripture, beginning in Gen 3:15. And didn't Jesus tell the Pharisees that their father was the devil (Jn 8:44)? Therefore, Paul was not out of his mind in Romans 4 when he spoke about Abraham being the "father" of all believers in the Messiah. Don't you know that there are only two kinds of spiritual people in the world in God's eyes: Saints or Sinners, the righteous or unrighteous, saved or unsaved, elect or non-elect, children of God or children of the devil, etc.? In fact, ethnicity or race is at the bottom of God's priorities.

Now I have a question about the Mosaic Covenant that is relevant to the discussion of the Abrahamic Covenant. You insist that the terms of the latter covenant are found in Gen 17, correct? And you know this with certainty, I take it? Good. Can you likewise point me to the terms of the Mosaic Covenant? Just chapter and verse will do. Don't feel obligated to write a novel here.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Ethiopian eunuch was not a proselyte of Judaism.

Then he had no business going to Jerusalem to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
No, he was an Ethiopian Gentile eunuch proselyte.

The Holy Spirit sent Philip to the eunuch to preach the Gospel.

What gospel? Oh yeah, the gospel of Isaiah.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture (Isaiah 53), and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:35.

And then he was baptized. Nor was Paul in Rom 11 talking about Jewish proselytes. He directed his remarks to gentile Christians.

No such thing as a "Jewish proselyte."

In fact, he begins his remarks in part with, "Rather because of their (Jews') transgression (rejection of their Messiah), salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious" (Rom 11:11)

The concept of spiritual seed is taught throughout scripture, beginning in Gen 3:15. And didn't Jesus tell the Pharisees that their father was the devil (Jn 8:44)? Therefore, Paul was not out of his mind in Romans 4 when he spoke about Abraham being the "father" of all believers in the Messiah. Don't you know that there are only two kinds of spiritual people in the world in God's eyes: Saints or Sinners, the righteous or unrighteous, saved or unsaved, elect or non-elect, children of God or children of the devil, etc.? In fact, ethnicity or race is at the bottom of God's priorities.

Now I have a question about the Mosaic Covenant that is relevant to the discussion of the Abrahamic Covenant. You insist that the terms of the latter covenant are found in Gen 17, correct? And you know this with certainty, I take it? Good. Can you likewise point me to the terms of the Mosaic Covenant? Just chapter and verse will do. Don't feel obligated to write a novel here.

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou cperfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.
Gen. 17:1–27.

All you need to know is right there.
And you'll notice "faith" is not a requirement.
Nor are there Gentiles mentioned or included. So, all this adding to the Bible is error and lies.
I'm not deceived.

 

[Arial]

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture (Isaiah 53), and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:35.

What was the Eunuch asking Phillip? Acts 8:27b He had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

30. So Phillip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, "Do oou understand what you are reading? 31. And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me? 32. Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this" Then we have Is 53 quoted Like a sheep led to slaughter----.

34. And the eunuch said to Phillip, "About whom, I asl you. does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?" 35. Then Phillip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.

So in your hatred of the idea that God would ever make a covenant with anyone but ethnic Jews and national Israel you completely misstate and misuse not only this scripture but an entire volume of scriptures. This has nothing to do with a covenant but who Jesus is and what He did---which is the good news that goes to all the world---all over the world---. I have not read very many of your posts because they are truly not worth reading as they bear no resemblance to what is taught in the Bible, are full of anti-Gentilism (all non Jews), and jealousy, and arrogance, and condescension. But in what I have read I see no gospel and the only mention of the Savior in connection, not with good news, but partiality. The old condemning news iow.

 

[Rufus]

Then he had no business going to Jerusalem to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
No, he was an Ethiopian Gentile eunuch proselyte.

What gospel? Oh yeah, the gospel of Isaiah.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture (Isaiah 53), and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:35.

No such thing as a "Jewish proselyte."

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou cperfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.
Gen. 17:1–27.

All you need to know is right there.
And you'll notice "faith" is not a requirement.
Nor are there Gentiles mentioned or included. So, all this adding to the Bible is error and lies.
I'm not deceived.

I take it that by the disdain you show for Paul's gospel that you don't care much for Jesus' gospel either?

And the reason Philip started with Isaiah is because that was the book the eunuch was reading from. That doesn't mean that Philip didn't also share New Covenant enlightenment on the gospel. Moreover, the entire bible is christo-centric. Christ is everywhere to be found throughout the bible.

I see you have no answer about where in the OT the terms and conditions of the Mosaic Covenant are. (You don't have an answer to a lot of questions, for that matter.)

So...since you obviously have no answer to the question, let me approach the Old Covenant from another angle. Assuming you believe that the Mosaic Covenant was a covenant of law, do you believe that that covenant consisted of 613 laws?

P.S. I did forget something. Peter's commentary that was inspired by the Holy Spirit on Gen 12:3( or any of several other identical passages) disagrees with your understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant. Here's what Peter said shortly after Pentecost:

Acts 3:24-26
24 "Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.' 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."
NIV

There was no question in Peter's mind that when he quoted from any number of OT passages that speak to the blessings that would come to the nations through Abraham that the apostle associated that promised blessing with "the covenant God made with your fathers".

 

[jeremiah1five]

I take it that by the disdain you show for Paul's gospel that you don't care much for Jesus' gospel either?

au contraire.
It is the power of God.

And the reason Philip started with Isaiah is because that was the book the eunuch was reading from. That doesn't mean that Philip didn't also share New Covenant enlightenment on the gospel. Moreover, the entire bible is christo-centric. Christ is everywhere to be found throughout the bible.

What could Philip share but what was recent history of a Jewish man named Jesus. There was no "New Covenant enlightenment." It was early in this history. All they could share was what they may have known about Jesus and recent history. It was early and it took time to sort out all the things happening in Israel.

I see you have no answer about where in the OT the terms and conditions of the Mosaic Covenant are. (You don't have an answer to a lot of questions, for that matter.)

You want the answer I gave you the answer. Genesis 17 where the covenant is found along with your answer.

So...since you obviously have no answer to the question, let me approach the Old Covenant from another angle. Assuming you believe that the Mosaic Covenant was a covenant of law, do you believe that that covenant consisted of 613 laws?

That's the number accepted.

P.S. I did forget something. Peter's commentary that was inspired by the Holy Spirit on Gen 12:3( or any of several other identical passages) disagrees with your understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant. Here's what Peter said shortly after Pentecost:

Acts 3:24-26
24 "Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.' 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."
NIV

A Jewish Christian speaking about Jewish history and a Jewish Covenant. And I know the answer to "all peoples on the earth will be blessed."

There was no question in Peter's mind that when he quoted from any number of OT passages that speak to the blessings that would come to the nations through Abraham that the apostle associated that promised blessing with "the covenant God made with your fathers".

Yes, a covenant that was made with Abraham and his descendants.
But God made no covenant with Gentiles or the seed of any Gentile.
The covenants of God go through a particular family. And His covenant IS with what some call "ethnic" Jews. That's what I find in the Bible. And the "nations" and "kings" that would come "out of thee" (Abraham) are the descendants of Ismael and Esau. These two come from "out of thee" (Abraham).

 

[Rufus]

What could Philip share but what was recent history of a Jewish man named Jesus. There was no "New Covenant enlightenment." It was early in this history. All they could share was what they may have known about Jesus and recent history. It was early and it took time to sort out all the things happening in Israel.

Of course, there was "New Covenant enlightenment". How do we know Philip wasn't one of the 12? Or even if he wasn't, was one of many disciples outside the circle of 12 who routinely followed Jesus throughout his ministry? The text in Acts simply says that the evangelist started in Isaiah, which makes sense because the Ethiopian was reading Isaiah 53.

You want the answer I gave you the answer. Genesis 17 where the covenant is found along with your answer.

Gen 17 doesn't tell me a thing about the Mosaic Covenant, which is what I asked you about. Of course, you won't address my question in a honest, straightforward way because you know that the "chapter and verse" that states the terms and conditions of the Mosaic Covenant covers most of the Pentateuch! And this means that the vast majority of the laws that constitute the terms and conditions came long after the Mosaic Covenant was ratified in blood (Ex 24:4b-6, 8). You'll be very hard-pressed, of course, to find anywhere near the 613 laws from Ex 20 through Ex 24.

And this fact confirms what I stated a few days ago about the major covenants in the OT which was: The terms and conditions were not stipulated in just one place. And Peter's little commentary in Acts 3 bears this truth out since he included the "blessing to the nations" to be an integral part of the covenant with the patriarchs!

And we have even more evidence of this covenant format in Ezek 36, which I also asked you about last week and never received an answer. The promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit and God's effectual grace are indeed unique to the New Covenant, yet these particular promises came many decades after Jeremiah introduced the promise of a New Covenant to Israel.

A Jewish Christian speaking about Jewish history and a Jewish Covenant. And I know the answer to "all peoples on the earth will be blessed."

Yes, a covenant that was made with Abraham and his descendants.
But God made no covenant with Gentiles or the seed of any Gentile.
The covenants of God go through a particular family. And His covenant IS with what some call "ethnic" Jews. That's what I find in the Bible. And the "nations" and "kings" that would come "out of thee" (Abraham) are the descendants of Ismael and Esau. These two come from "out of thee" (Abraham).

Wrong as usual! While God made no direct covenant with the Gentiles per se, nonetheless the Gentiles are still a party to the Abrahamic Covenant. The covenant promise of a blessing to all the nations of the earth that would come through Abraham, and his [one] "seed" in particular, made the elect in those nations spiritual heirs to the promise. The great typological paradox with this covenant is that the spiritual blessing to all the nations would come through the physical lineage of one nation! In other words, the indirect covenant with the Gentiles came through a proxies, most especially Christ! (This is precisely why Christ is called a "covenant" in Isa 42 and 49!) Christ "stood in the gap" not only between God and the Jews but between God and his Gentile elect! Not only that, but what matters the most with God is not physical or ethnic or genetic descent. What matters to Him is the HEART of his elect -- whether they be Jew or Gentile. What matters to him is the spiritual and invisible and eternal far more than the physical and visible and temporal. Men like you look on the outside, but God looks on the inside.

And isn't it ironic that the Son of David who was born in Bethlehem, nevertheless was raised and brought up in Nazareth thereby fulfilling the prophecy in Isa 9 that the Messiah would honor Galilee of the Gentiles! So, yes, the Messiah came and preached and ministered to the Jews first -- but not to the exclusion of the Gentiles. It was always God's intention even in eternity to save mankind across all spectrum of peoples.

You might want to study all the passages in the OT that mentions "nations" or "gentiles". The former word is found 521 times in the OT. And "Gentiles" are found 5 times.

You might also want to spend considerable time in the Book of Jonah.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Of course, there was "New Covenant enlightenment". How do we know Philip wasn't one of the 12? Or even if he wasn't, was one of many disciples outside the circle of 12 who routinely followed Jesus throughout his ministry? The text in Acts simply says that the evangelist started in Isaiah, which makes sense because the Ethiopian was reading Isaiah 53.

Jesus took His twelve to a place of seclusion to get away from the crowds. All these disciples knew was what Jesus taught them, nothing more, nothing less.

Gen 17 doesn't tell me a thing about the Mosaic Covenant, which is what I asked you about. Of course, you won't address my question in a honest, straightforward way because you know that the "chapter and verse" that states the terms and conditions of the Mosaic Covenant covers most of the Pentateuch! And this means that the vast majority of the laws that constitute the terms and conditions came long after the Mosaic Covenant was ratified in blood (Ex 24:4b-6, 8). You'll be very hard-pressed, of course, to find anywhere near the 613 laws from Ex 20 through Ex 24.

And this fact confirms what I stated a few days ago about the major covenants in the OT which was: The terms and conditions were not stipulated in just one place. And Peter's little commentary in Acts 3 bears this truth out since he included the "blessing to the nations" to be an integral part of the covenant with the patriarchs!

And we have even more evidence of this covenant format in Ezek 36, which I also asked you about last week and never received an answer. The promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit and God's effectual grace are indeed unique to the New Covenant, yet these particular promises came many decades after Jeremiah introduced the promise of a New Covenant to Israel.

Wrong as usual! While God made no direct covenant with the Gentiles per se, nonetheless the Gentiles are still a party to the Abrahamic Covenant. The covenant promise of a blessing to all the nations of the earth that would come through Abraham, and his [one] "seed" in particular, made the elect in those nations spiritual heirs to the promise. The great typological paradox with this covenant is that the spiritual blessing to all the nations would come through the physical lineage of one nation! In other words, the indirect covenant with the Gentiles came through a proxies, most especially Christ! (This is precisely why Christ is called a "covenant" in Isa 42 and 49!) Christ "stood in the gap" not only between God and the Jews but between God and his Gentile elect! Not only that, but what matters the most with God is not physical or ethnic or genetic descent. What matters to Him is the HEART of his elect -- whether they be Jew or Gentile. What matters to him is the spiritual and invisible and eternal far more than the physical and visible and temporal. Men like you look on the outside, but God looks on the inside.

And isn't it ironic that the Son of David who was born in Bethlehem, nevertheless was raised and brought up in Nazareth thereby fulfilling the prophecy in Isa 9 that the Messiah would honor Galilee of the Gentiles! So, yes, the Messiah came and preached and ministered to the Jews first -- but not to the exclusion of the Gentiles. It was always God's intention even in eternity to save mankind across all spectrum of peoples.

You might want to study all the passages in the OT that mentions "nations" or "gentiles". The former word is found 521 times in the OT. And "Gentiles" are found 5 times.

You might also want to spend considerable time in the Book of Jonah.

Believe as you wish. I'm stepping out. Too much of my time posting to refute others' errors and when I do, they don't "listen" or reject Scripture outright to hold to their pet theories.
Good luck.