The Book of Revelation: Amillennial/idealist Interpretive Method

[Josheb]

I'd rather not have @Josheb come out of his corner and smack me on the head for going off-topic here, but if you want to put up a different post with that theme, I'll respond to it there with details. I've already mentioned it on this site before on another post, but I can repeat it.

My boundaries are my own. I tell my peers what it is with which I will collaborate (or not) leaving them free to respond accordingly (or not) or to look to other posters for responses. I do this especially in the end times boards because I know Dispies like to hijack every thread they can, rendering cogent discourse impossible. You and Dave enjoy yourselves. If I read something op relevant, I'll offer my two cents.

No smacking of heads wanted or needed.

 

[Arial]

What would the Amillennial idealist say, and by what interpretive method, approach, and tools would they reach that answer?

Those who have the mark of the beast would be the unregenerate and it is not a literal mark. We see with the first beast, the second beast and the false prophet, a mimicking of the Trinity. A false trinity.

So the mark of the beast would be the mimicry of the believer being sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Arial]

1) What do you do with the cultural mandate and great commission?

I am not sure what you mean by what do I do with the cultural mandate and great commission?

2) If the Church has always been persecuted, then hasn't the Church been persecuted worldwide?

Not all at the same time and to the same degree. That is what is coming. It will be an all our effort to eradicate this world of Christianity. It will be government sanctioned---all governments probably. In addition to be encouragement for all Christians of all ages in whatever they are going through to stand firm and not bow down to culture or walk away because of persecution, when Satan is unbound for a short time those living in that time are going to need to be prepared to persevere and trust God, even unto death if necessary. A lot of pre tribbers that are alive at that time are liable to be standing on very shaky ground. Not prepared. Of course it is possible they might still be saying, "Things are really bad. It must be about time for the tribulation."

 

[Mr GLee]

So historically, what was this mark and how was it implemented in the past? Did people get marked on the right hand and the forehead and they couldn't buy or sell? When did that happen specifically, who did it, and what was the outcome?

Yes, the historical temporal seen must be mixed with the eternal not seen.(Hebrew 4)

It's the gospel we must buy and not sell and with it get the understanding revealed in parables .Not in respect to worldly goods our necessary requirements more a famine for hearing the word of the gospel the proper fear as trust builder .

Proverbs 23:23Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Its not a outward sign we seek after 2/3 or .666. But is the mark of God's "law of faith" .Let there be and as a testimony of the power of faith. . it comes to pass as God good .

God's labor of Love faithfully working in sons of God (Christians) What he says will come to pass the mark of grace restored .God given mankind a second born seth to replace Abel murdered by the father of lies murder from the beginning.

Genesis 4:13-15 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabondin the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

The mark no early parole, no immediate death sentence they will have a increased load. . . not yoked with Christ as was Able God strengthen Abel providing the sabbath rest spoken of in Hebrew 4:1-2 the green pastures rest .

 

[Josheb]

I will just respond the this section as it pretty much covers the rest.

When I posted the OP it was dealing with the idealist approach to the interpretation of Revelation. Here you are attaching it to a method of interpreting the entire Bible. As far as I know, the differing categories are not considered to be something that runs through consistently as a means of interpretation. It too heavily classifies people and generally speaking, I think people read the Bible as it is presented, and they learn and grow in what they learn and what they see. As they seek God.

For example in our first read through of the OT we see historical facts that present the activity of God in them. We see genres but may not recognize them as genres. We see anthropomorphic language applied to God, and we see ideas presented symbolically etc. And eventually, hopefully, we begin to see the continuity of the entire book from cover to cover. One story. Many moving parts. God revealing Himself in the story of redemption. And we learn to separate one genre from another in our interpretations of scripture, and interpret accordingly. We do see repeated patterns---nothing new under the sun after all----but we see much of the repetition as a partial fulfillment of what is to come. For example we see even in Revelation in the judgements, parallels to the plagues in Egypt. We can see the Exodus as a precursor to the deliverance Jesus brings that is eternal. The Israelites wandering in the desert a type of the believers journey that takes place in the kingdom of darkness (the world, the flesh, and the devil) but kept safe in Christ as He goes before us, bringing us Home. The sacrifices meant to lead us to Christ. When we read the prophecies in the OT such as the visions in Dan. we know we are not being shown a literal figure, but symbols representing something.

There are a lot of mysteries in the OT but it is not mystical. And those mysteries were revealed in the NT. To say that the idealist interprets scripture mystically or according to set patterns is wrong. Besides all should not be classified the same. Covenant theology typically interprets Rev from the idealist pov as described in the quote I gave form the Reformation study Bible. It is preterism, historicism, idealism, and futurism, that are compared side by side in interpretive approaches. It is Covenant theology and dispensationalism that deal with the framework for interpretation. And there is no mysticism in covenant theology either.

I agree with most of that.

However, just because Revelation is apocalyptic prophecy does not mean it is all symbols and symbolism. We seem to agree. I have said exegesis is the way we all - no matter our millennial view - approach scripture. I read the first three verses literally, nor figuratively, not symbolically, not allegorically, or anagogically. Some claim to do so but when explaining their view, it is clear the text hasn't been read literally. I believe one poster in this thread said the entire book is allegorical. Well, "the entire book" would include the first three verses. I'm gonna part ways with everyone who either says the entire book is allegorical, or any poster who claims the entire book is allegorical and then while claiming to be reading allegorically treats the first tree verses literally. That's simple inconsistency.

I said the chief reason we reach different positions is due to exegetical inconsistency.

We do see historical facts. Perhaps some clarity is order because "the entire book" of the OT isn't where we see God revealing Himself in the story of redemption, so I assumed the was an unmarked segue from the OT to "the entire book" of the Bible. I believe I have been consistent with repeated affirmations of looking to the OT to understand Revelation BUT not doing so bound by just one approach because the NT treats the OT diversely, not monolithically. There are places where the NT treats (or at least appears to treat) the OT literally. The mentions of OT persons appear to be treated as historical fact (even Adam). We are also told many of the OT facts aren't literal. What appears literal (like a temple) is figurative and symbolic in the NT. It's not a personal opinion or a doctrinal bias because there are place where the NT plainly states Jesus is the temple, the saints are the temple God built without human hands, and Jesus is the promised seed. No Jew would have understood that reading the Pentateuch, yet that is the declared truth of the newer revelation. Turns out the seed and temple were allegorical. There are also places where the NT plainly states what appears to be literal in the OT is spiritual, not temporal, physical, literal. And example would be our being told the resurrection is promised descendant whose reign is eternal. It's not about a physical chair sitting in a physical room in a physical building on physical land at all, and neither is it merely symbolism. And, again, there's simply no what a Jew reading about the temple's building would ever think resurrection is being described (and prophesied). They certainly did not foresee Rev. 22. So, some of the "mysteries" of the OT are mystical (mystical in the classic sense of the word to mean spiritual and transcendent, not the more redundant modern new age sense where the mystery is the mysterious and open to subjective interpretation).

As far as saying "the idealist interprets scripture mystically or according to set patterns is wrong," misses the distinction between Idealism and idealism. Idealist eschatology does in fact use patterns as a tool and they do in fact interpret scripture spirtually and mystically and I provided a reputable source to evidence that view. I can provide many others. Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, and Here. Those are all quick links but I can quote Idealists and I can quote Amillennialists who are idealist to show the differences.

I am not wrong.

Lastly, just because many Covenant theologians are Amillennialists who also hold idealist views does not mean they are Idealist. Idealism and idealism are not eschatologically synonymous. I could have also provided links describing mixes of preterism and idealism, and done so in both Amillennial and Postmillennial camps. Covenant Theology is not specifically eschatological; it is Christological and thereby soteriological. Liberal Idealists think Jesus is symbolic! Dispensationalism replaces Christology and soteriology as preeminent with ecclesiology and eschatology (Christ isn't the chief doctrine, the end times is!).

I gotta go but I'm happy to elaborate on the importance of covenant over dispensation, and the difference between Covenant views of Revelation with greater and lesser idealism.

 

[Josheb]

I wonder why you use the word idealist as a way of dividing two different study laws .The literal and the signified both come as different idea'

Remember the whole time there were kings in Israel (the abomination of desolation ) that period signified period of time used as a used as a figure (parable) until the time of reformation. using the temporal things seen to reveal the unseen eternal things of God .

Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation

The temporal historically must be mixed with the signified understanding of the gospel .In that way mixing what the eyes see the temporal thing of earth with the unseen eternal things. . . without parable figures of speech Christ spoke not in parables .

Digging rightly dividing is required

Titus 3:9-11

 

[Josheb]

I too started with the dispensationalist view of at least the rapture and the seven year tribulation, though I did not know it was dispensational. It was all I heard, read, or was taught and so I thought it was true. It hung around in the background of my thinking and pretty much left that book alone after my first reading of it in my read through the Bible, because the puzzle gave me a headache. And it was Lindsey's book The Late Great Planet Earth that caused me at last to sit up and consider that the Bible might be true, and maybe even what I had been looking for all my life. Turns out it was, this Jesus of the Bible. So I said the prayer he naturally gave as a free will bloke, but I prefaced it with "Just in case this is ture." But when I woke up the next morning I knew that every word in the Bible was true, and set out to read them. So God gets us however we need to be got.

But it is a very hard thing to let go of and to learn to read the Bible without all that indoctrination coming into play. To be able to see the scriptures in a different way, through a different lens. Just as it is difficult to come out of a religion or cult one grew up in that has redefined Biblical words and firmly planted those meanings into one's head so that it is what they see every time they come to the word. Brains washed. I learned to do both those things.

Yep.

It is hard to shake the biases but one alternative is become familiar with them all and critique them as objectively as possible in light of their competing approaches, methods and conclusions.

Gotta go.

 

[Arial]

The symbolic nature of certain numbers in scripture is prevalent throughout, and I agree it does have significance in this 144,000 number. But since Revelation 7 particularly specifies that these are 12 Jewish tribes numbering 144,000, and doesn't include a mention of the apostles anywhere in their number, that would indicate that this is strictly Jewish individuals - particularly since Revelation 7 goes to great lengths to specify the very unusual choice of 12 tribes (dropping Ephraim and Dan, and including Joseph).

I admit that is what it sounds like. But you are the one that said the 144,000 were the ones who came out of their graves at the crucifixion. Now you are going to a different part of Revelation where it mentions these 144,000. And are just about to step into dispensationalism.

I think there is great significance---and I am not sure of what exactly---that its states all the tribes and does not list all the tribes, and still comes up with the number 12.But I think it probably has a relationship, considering what is said immediately following, with it representing the fullness of God's people, all the saints, Jew and Gentile both.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I admit that is what it sounds like. But you are the one that said the 144,000 were the ones who came out of their graves at the crucifixion. Now you are going to a different part of Revelation where it mentions these 144,000. And are just about to step into dispensationalism.

The reason I mention the difference between Jew and Gentile in evangelistic emphasis is not because I consider this to be an important distinction today, as the Dispensational view does. It isn't. But it once WAS important back during Christ's ministry, because it was necessary to fulfill Daniel's 70th week of prophecy (which 70th "week" of years ended in AD 37). That last "week" was when the "Messenger of the covenant"(Christ Jesus) had "confirmed the covenant with many" of Daniel's people. The gospel was offered "to the Jew first", and then to the Gentiles, as Paul once said in Acts 13:46 was "necessary" (in order to fulfill that last 70th week ending in AD 37 of offering the gospel to the Jews of the day). For the most part, they rejected that offer, and only the "remnant" of ethnic Jews received Christ, as Paul said was prophesied by Isaiah. So the full thrust of the gospel's emphasis then went out to all the nations of the world, with Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Once God in AD 70 had "shattered the power of the holy people" (Daniel's own Israelite nation), the tribal genealogical records were burned up, as God intended, so that it would be manifested that God had always planned for there to be "one fold and one Shepherd".

The 144,000 of both Revelation 7 and 14 are the same group. These were all "sealed", which reserved them in that resurrected status for their future transport to heaven with the rest of the resurrected believers in the AD 70 return of Christ when He received them all to Himself and returned to heaven with them.

 

[Red Baker]

Do I have the wisdom of God should be our main question~only when one is trusting in the scriptures to provide for them answers to the hidden truths of God in his word, can it be said that that person has the wisdom of God...."not" until then!

 

[Red Baker]

The gospel was offered "to the Jew first", and then to the Gentiles, as Paul once said in Acts 13:46 was "necessary" (in order to fulfill that last 70th week ending in AD 37 of offering the gospel to the Jews of the day). For the most part, they rejected that offer, and only the "remnant" of ethnic Jews...

I probably need to start at the beginning of this discussion on Revelation 7, which I will, but want to say this to you 3 Resurrections~The gospel has never been offered to any nation! You sound like the average Armenian preacher.

The gospel was first given to the Jews and then to the Gentiles~the Jews in the OT, Gentiles in the NT. God does not offer Jesus Christ to anyone, he sends his truth to apprehend his elect! The rest he hardens, by leaving them in their sins and not showing mercy to them.

Your timing of Daniel's 70th prophecy is way off which is to be expected. But, that must wait when I have time to fully address it.

 

[Red Baker]

The second bodily resurrection event already took place at Christ's second coming, as the scriptures reveal, on Daniel's 1,335th day (which was on Pentecost day in AD 70). You and I are waiting for Christ's third coming with a third bodily resurrection event which will bring fallen mankind's history on this planet to a close. Does that make me an Idealist of sorts?

3 Resurrections, it makes you one very confused person!

You are inventing a resurrection that does not exist. I agreed many saints arose at Christ's resurrection and went into Jerusalem, and from there we know nothing more other than they did not died again, but were like Enoch, were taken by God, and they were not found anymore.

We must wait to address Daniel's 1290 and 1335 days of prophecies. It would take a few posts to do so. But they have references to the very last days of the little season of Revelation.

 

[Red Baker]

Is it a literal 144,000? Or does the number signify something? Does it maybe signify all God's people, OT and NT aliked. 12 tribes of Israel x 12 apostles x 1000 (a great number)=144,000. Is this use of multiplied twelves the same as God's purpose in 12 tribes, and 12 apostles in redemptions progress. According to the consistency of it usage throughout scripture, we can ascertain that 12 symbolizes God's power and authority and it serves as a perfect governmental foundation. Completeness. The number 12 is used 189 times in the KJV and twelfth 23 times.

Revelation 7~"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Coming back and see who these 144,000 are~pretty convinced that they are the two witnesses of Revelation 11~Jews and Gentiles out of every nation, kindreds, and people, and tongues!

 

[Mr GLee]

Titus 3:9-11

???

 

[Mr GLee]

I admit that is what it sounds like. But you are the one that said the 144,000 were the ones who came out of their graves at the crucifixion. Now you are going to a different part of Revelation where it mentions these 144,000. And are just about to step into dispensationalism.

I think there is great significance---and I am not sure of what exactly---that its states all the tribes and does not list all the tribes, and still comes up with the number 12.But I think it probably has a relationship, considering what is said immediately following, with it representing the fullness of God's people, all the saints, Jew and Gentile both.

Yes the metaphor 144,000 all the saints the whole bride from Abel forward

 

[Red Baker]

Revelation Chapter 7

Biblical Exposition and commentary on Revelation chapter seven. It is not coincidental that the seventh chapter reads as an interval between the six seals and the opening of the seventh seal. by Tony Warren

www.mountainretreatorg.net

Overall a very good exposition on Revelation 7. WIth a few minor disagreements~ones that I will not mentioned because of the overall message is very good.

I first read this back twenty years ago or so.

 

[Mr GLee]

Coming back and see who these 144,000 are~pretty convinced that they are the two witnesses of Revelation 11~Jews and Gentiles out of every nation, kindreds, and people, and tongues!

Two is the witness God has spoken.

God not seen through the prophets seen .Law of faith. (#1) Let there be and its testimony seen (#2) "it was good"

The two witness (sola scriptura )represent the word of God. Never is the flesh of dying mankind literally used as power to believe in those parables(.no reincarnation)

Given in more than one way. Law and prophets. or Moses used to represent the law. Moses and prophets. Moses and Elisa again Moses representing the law and Elias the prophets .The let there be and it was good testimony of our Holy Father . Sola scriptura the final authority in matters of faith (His) .

Note (purple ) My understanding of faith

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias (sola scriptural) talking with him.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: (prophets) if they speak not according to this (one) word, it is because there is no light in them

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men (Father and the Son.)is true.

16 The law and the prophets (sola scriptura) were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it

Luke 16:17And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias,(the testimony of God) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Luke 16 :29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; (God's word) let them hear them.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, (law and prophets) and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Red Baker]

I'll give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of this chapter. As you know, evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals.

Psalms 73:22

• "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh driven nature of man. Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast his driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit of God's law. I also believe that Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour. The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the likness (image) of the beast.

Revelation 13:1-2

• "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
• And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

Without going into too much detail, the sea often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Horns in Scripture often signify the power of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church becomes spiritually Babylon, these 10 kings will reign with him for this short period (little season KJV) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Chris. At this time when Satan is loosed (the would healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.

Revelation 13:3

• "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Christ, of course, wounded him by the cross, and also looses the beast, or heals that wound, after all Israel are sealed. Satan is loosed so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.

Revelation 13:4-5

• "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
• And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Under the authority of Satan, these kings rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.

Psalms 68:20-22

• "He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
• But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
• The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:"

Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit." In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God. He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.

And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan over 2000 years ago, but his loosing after the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged. Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks is his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.

part one

 

[Red Baker]

Part two....

Revelation 13:6-7

• "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
• And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.

Revelation 13:8-9

• "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• If any man have an ear, let him hear."

All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo or Antichrist instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, thinking they do God service.

Revelation 13:10-11

• "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
• And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the messenger of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan.

The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist, or more to the point Satan's substitute kingdom. It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregation is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 13:12-14

• "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
• And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
• And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built), but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, Christ was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations, in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.

Revelation 13:15-16

• " And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
• And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses) to be killed. Those remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying their will belongs to them, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist.

Revelation 13:17-18

• I gave my understanding of these two verses yesterday.

So that's basically my brief overview of all those verses of Revelation 13.


Quote

>>>
I was curious about how the power of the beast to give LIFE unto the IMAGE of the beast? And how could it SPEAK?
<<<

The power is in their tongues. A false god can only come to life through the words of men, who speak, teach and propagate them. Satan works (speaks) through men, as they are the ones with the spirit of disobedience. In this cryptic imagery, Satan has given his children his number. That's also why God says it is the number of man (unsaved man). Because like being branded, they are indicated as slaves to Satan, constrained to do his will. The beast is brought to life through the doctrines and teachings of the sinful man, or man of lawlessness (any way you want to translate it). The second beast represents the false prophets of this kingdom. They have power to give life to the beast because words are power! It's always been.

Note it says their power was "that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." As we look to Revelation chapter 11, it is the false prophets and teachers who kill the two witnesses. And they kill them with false teachings that extinguish the true witness. The two witnesses' words tormented the unrighteous "because" it was an offense to them. Just as Christ's Words tormented and made angry the rulers of Israel.


Quote

>>>
My position is that the second beast is a Satanic Kingdom making up of carnal men within the church.
<<<

I believe the first beast represents the carnal kingdom empowered by Satan and causing apostasy, which was wounded at the cross, that God's congregation Israel could be restored in the New Testament dispensation. At this time the deadly would is healed, and the second beast (the false prophets of the New Testament church) resurrect (so to speak) this body of death that God's house again would worship Satan. This is why the second beast has horns like a lamb and speaks like the very same Dragon, and they cause the people to worship this wounded/healed beast. For all intents and purposes, this first beast represents Satan's Kingdom throughout time. The false prophets and idolaters serve it and give it life by their words.


Quote

>>>
They helped give life to the image
<<<

The false prophet's words bring life to the first beast in the same way as our preaching the gospel brings life to our congregation or body of Christ. Antichrist (substitute Christ) versus Christ. The death blow by Christ, the binding of Satan, took away the life of the beast so that Christ's church could be built. After the church is built and the testimony of the two witnesses is finished, this beast is given life again that the nations (that couldn't be deceived) are now allowed to be deceived (revelation 20).

I had this saved as a draft done a few years ago by Tony Warren. Remember it is a draft, so no writing errors have been corrected.

 

[Mr GLee]

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The golden ark of the covenant measure (the invisible things of God) must be used. Called the signified in Revelation 1;1 the language of parables or the hidden manna chapter 2:17 Not the literal measure (1 = 1) of the prophet sent as a messenger (angel a fake word) that simply causes confusion