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The Book of Revelation: Amillennial/idealist Interpretive Method

The great commission is said to be in force "even to the end of the age" and, according to Paul. the ends of the ages fell in the first century (1 Cor. 10:11). So either the era of the great commission ended back in the first century or the end of the ends hasn't yet come and the great commission is still in force. Whether persecuted or not, God expects all the nations to be baptized.
Being persecuted has nothing to do with it. I never said the great commission----which is spreading the gospel to all nations, not also to subdue the earth---has ended. And I never said it ended when there is world wide persecution of the church. I only said the persecution would get worse and for all Christians.
Are you optimistic? What is the result of the government fostered worldwide persecution of the Church? Is it the cultural mandate accomplished, or not? Is the great commission realized, or not? Has God commanded these things with no expectation they will actually happen?
I am very optimistic. But not in hoping that this world we presently live in will get all bees and butterflies and rainbows. I am optimistic in the hope that awaits me.

I can only give possibilities as to what this world wide persecution of the church will be, though we have evidence in Rev of the results for Christians. Christianity could be outlawed worldwide for example. With penalties for violation passed that might range from the least to the worst. Churches could be outlawed, Christian gatherings, Bibles, Christian books and words. Rev may be telling us there will come a time that Christians are not allowed to buy or sell, therefore eat.

There is not cultural mandate in force for this world. There is a cultural mandate for God's people, to live like God's people.
Is the great commission realized, or not? Has God commanded these things with no expectation they will actually happen?
LOL. Kind of a strawman question as the cultural mandate at creation is no longer possible since God Himself cursed the earth. and threw man out of the Garden he was to have dominion over. As to the great commision, it is moving right along just as God has purposed it would. But might I remind you that God also commanded that we be perfect in obedience knowing that we could not be. The fact that we could not be did not change His commands at all.
Just interested in how that worldwide persecution is reconciled with worldwide rule and worldwide great commission.
I guess if one is reading Revelation as a preterist thinking most of it has already happened and won't happen again, you would miss that part.
 
Would you, therefore, then say the mark to which John is references is a mark that already existed at the time when John wrote Revelation?
No. John when he said that was writing about something that hadn't happened yet.
 
You can take issue all you like but I have provided a pile of links from many diverse theological perspectives that all say Idealism is a spiritualized interpretation of scripture. I also stated the mysticism of the Idealist is not the mysticism of the new ager.
You can quote all the links from diverse theological perspectives you want. That does not make idealism a spiritual interpretation. It recognizes spiritual things in the scriptures when they are given. Was Paul interpreting the OT spiritually?

Mysticism inside and outside new age has the same meaning. Find a better word. It is highly misleading, although it may be what you believe.
An Idealist agrees with the first part of definition "a," but sacraments have nothing to do with eschatology. They'd agree with definition "b".
Huh.
Furthermore, there have been piles of notable Christians who were mystics. They range from the "Desert Fathers," Anselm of Canterbury, Francis Assisi, all the way up to A. W. Tozer, Watchman Nee, and Henri Nouwen - NONE of whom would be considered Gnostics. Some consider John the Baptist, Paul and even C. S. Lewis mystics! I wouldn't be among them, but the point is mysticism has a long history within orthodox Christianity.
Does that make it right? Does it make idealists mystics? Does it make me one? Does it make idealist spiritualize the whole Bible?
So you can take strong issue with it if you like but strong issue is meaningless without evidence.
It isn't meaningless to me. And I am the one you are saying it to.
F. D. Maurice was a leading Idealist of the 19th century and his work, along with the later influence of the liberal Barth, are the chief influences on modern Idealist eschatology. These guys eschewed all futurism, but they also eschewed literal, physical, and/or earthly interpretation, too. Maurice was Anglican (his father was Unitarian), writing in the so called "restoration movement" when there was a huge explosion of sectarian views in the west's Christianity. Maurice was a socialist; his theology influenced by Marx. Barth was somewhat existentialist (which is ironic because his neo-orthodoxy was an attempt to refute the 19th century influences adulterating Christianity) and in his view the God of revelation, revealed in Jesus Christ, a He, but always an "I" and always the existential measure of the eschatological (or Christological, or soteriological) reader of revelation (the Bible). God's kingdom is God himself and not merely somewhere, somehow, or at some time. It is always and everywhere transcendent. Prior to these influences eschatological idealism was not much of a separate ~ism within Christianity.
Is that supposed to mean something?
Poythress is idealist, not an Idealist.
Good for him.
 
As to regaining our subduing of the earth that exists, as was intended at creation, no it will not.
So.....

God commanded commands He did not intend to be accomplished.
And you are conflating two things that are not the same thing.
No, I am not.
This earth is cursed.
Got scripture for that?

I can find scripture that states, "a curse devours the earth" but that curse is not God cursing the earth; it is humanity that is the curse (Isa. 24:6). The ground was cursed because of Adam, not God (Gen. 3:17). So, if you have scripture that explicitly states God has literally cursed the earth He created when all creation awaits the sons of God to be revealed, I'd like to read it.
Only God can remove that curse.
I agree, but I still have not seen any evidence the earth itself is cursed.
The same erroneous principle that it sounds like you are suggesting as a preterist, is found in the war on so called global warming or climate change....
Focus. Do you want this op to turn into a discussion of current politics? Do you want me to start asking you where "global warming or climate change" is found in scripture? What on earth would make you think a preterist (anyone who believes prophecy is fulfilled) is espousing something currently going on 20 centuries after Revelation was written?

All I asked was how the great commission and the cultural mandate fit with what was stated in Post #108 and the worldwide persecution of Christians. Have you got a scripture thatstates the Church will be persecuted worldwide? How about scripture stating the great commission won't succeed?
Yes, the gospel will continue to spread to all nations,
.....and the nations baptized in Christ's name and taught his commands?
His people will be gathered in, until the last one comes into the fold.
Got scripture for that?
When Satan is released from being bound as in unable to stop the spread of the gospel, that is when in a last ditch effort he [decides] he will just kill them all or make their life so uncomfortable, that the only way out is to worship him.
I can read in Revelation 20 there is a release of satan, but nothing in that chapter states what was just posted.

If the gospel is unstoppable, then what does it accomplish before satan is released?
Where do you read the "last ditch effort" mentioned?
Where do you find any mention of worldwide persecution?
How about worldwide persecution coming from the government?

I think if you'll read chapter 20 of Revelation you'll find there's a gathering from the four corners of the earth that ends in a single city being involved and the results are the saints win.

Revelation 20:7-10
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

No mention of any worldwide persecution in a last-ditch effort to kill all the Christians.
The only way to get a meal for you and your family is to worship him. And though we are seeing signs of the great apostasy now by cultural pressures, that is when the chaff will be separated from the wheat.
That is a lot of liberty taken with the text.

Are you sure what was posted is what you believe: the separation of the wheat from the chaff occurs when the mark exists and that is either the sealing by the Holy Spirit or a false version of that by a false trinity emulating God? And not.....

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

On that occasion both wheat and weeds are harvested, no mention of a "mark."

John 4:34-38
Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work. Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest. Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. For in this case the saying is true, 'One sows and another reaps.' I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor."

According to Jesus the reaping (harvest) had already begun.

Revelation 14:14-20
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

This is chapter 14. We agree Revelation is not written in chronological order. Is this before or after satan is bound? Is this before or after he is released? Note the harvest of Rev. 14 is also stipulated to be a "city" and not the world.


Show me the scripture. Show me the interpretive method.
 
Again, I will ask you to heed the small "i" and large "I."

Idealism eschatology is not the same thing as Amillennial eschatology, and an Idealist is not synonymous with an idealist. The reason I can parse out who is Idealist and who is idealist is because 1) I know the difference between Big I and little i, 2) I can read what a person states about themselves and compare the two, and 3) if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it is probably a duck. If you say you are idealist then I take you at your word and assume you are not an Idealist. If you say you are an Amillennialist who is idealist, then I take you at your word and thereby know - according to your own words of self-identification - that you are not an Idealist which is amillennial.

An Amillennialist who is idealist is not the same as an Idealist who is amillennial.

And I have provided plenty of evidence to evidence all this.

Now maybe you weren't aware of all the distinctions, differences, and spectrums involved with the labels "Amillennial," Idealist," etc. but if that's the case that information has now been provided.
Repetitive,repetitive, repetitive.
Gnosticism holds knowledge is the means of salvation, of obtaining higher levels of spirituality, and they believe the physical is evil and only the spirit is good
You have described only one type of gnosticism. There are gnostics that believe almost anything, including one I ran across on a forum who truly did consider the whole Bible alegoric and anagogic. There is also the belief that there is secret knowledge hidden in the scriptures, revealed to only a few.
But there are degrees to which this concept would be applied. I, as a partial-preterist Amillennialist accept a limited amount of idealism, whereas you, an Amillennial idealist, may accept more so than me but less so than @Red Baker, or a full-fledged eschatological Idealist who happens to be amillennial. In other words, that summary describes FOUR different eschatological views and none of them are Gnostic. Or, more accurately, three different variations of the same overarching view (Amillennialism with degrees of idealism) and a completely different eschatology (Idealism that is amillennial).
So what Josh? You have said that already many times. It got no one anywhere any of those other times and won't get anyone anywhere this time either---or the next time.
 
No. John when he said that was writing about something that hadn't happened yet.
Yes, it was in John's future.

Is it in our future?

In other words, John and his readers may have experienced events and conditions in their future that are now in our past. What is it in the text of chapters 13-20 of Revelation that leads you to conclude what John wrote about did not occur in John's future but will occur in ours?
 
Repetitive, repetitive, repetitive.

You have described only one type of gnosticism. There are gnostics that believe almost anything, including one I ran across on a forum who truly did consider the whole Bible alegoric and anagogic. There is also the belief that there is secret knowledge hidden in the scriptures, revealed to only a few.
Just because one Gnostic you ran across considers the whole Bible allegorical and anagogical does not mean all mystics or all Idealists are Gnostics. I was accused of making Idealism Gnostic because I claimed it reads scripture to have spiritual or mystic meaning when I never said any such thing. The onus is on you to prove everyone who reads scripture spiritually and/or mystically is a Gnostic. That's you claim, not mine.


Prove it.
So what Josh? You have said that already many times. It got no one anywhere any of those other times and won't get anyone anywhere this time either---or the next time.
Never mind.

If it's not going to get anywhere with you then never mind. Thank you for your time.
 
God commanded commands He did not intend to be accomplished.
That is a logical fallacy. God intended for us to do what He commanded. DId we do it?
No, I am not.
Yes, you are.
Got scripture for that?

I can find scripture that states, "a curse devours the earth" but that curse is not God cursing the earth; it is humanity that is the curse (Isa. 24:6). The ground was cursed because of Adam, not God (Gen. 3:17). So, if you have scripture that explicitly states God has literally cursed the earth He created when all creation awaits the sons of God to be revealed, I'd like to read it.
Gen 3:17 It was cursed BY God because of Adam. Can you not see that it is cursed. His glory is still over it and in it, but for mankind it is cursed. The law put us under a curse as well.
Focus. Do you want this op to turn into a discussion of current politics? Do you want me to start asking you where "global warming or climate change" is found in scripture? What on earth would make you think a preterist (anyone who believes prophecy is fulfilled) is espousing something currently going on 20 centuries after Revelation was written?
Another logical fallacy of the strawman type. That is not what I said AT ALL.
All I asked was how the great commission and the cultural mandate fit with what was stated in Post #108 and the worldwide persecution of Christians. Have you got a scripture thatstates the Church will be persecuted worldwide?
It is in Rev when satan is unbound from deceiving the nations. It is in the part you missed because you think it already happened.
How about scripture stating the great commission won't succeed?
Strawman. I never said it wouldn't succeed. The command to subdue the earth is not the great commission. The great commission is to spread the gospel to all nations.
.and the nations baptized in Christ's name and taught his commands?
Is that not a part of being a Christian? It is individuals being brought to Christ in all nations, not all nations coming under His rule, until He comes back after all His enemies are put under His feet. It is something He is doing, not something we are doing for Him.
Got scripture for that?
John 10:7-19, 25-30
I can read in Revelation 20 there is a release of satan, but nothing in that chapter states what was just posted.
He had been bound from deceiving the nations. That is what it says he was bound from doing. Until the end of the thousand years. We see what the two beasts and the false prophet do regarding buying and selling. We see the number of a man tripled, representing a government without God and under the influence of the devil. Revelation is not chronological.
Are you sure what was posted is what you believe: the separation of the wheat from the chaff occurs when the mark exists and that is either the sealing by the Holy Spirit or a false version of that by a false trinity emulating God? And not.....
I see you are having difficulty with concepts. But I need to go feed Boaz and take a break.
 
That is a logical fallacy. God intended for us to do what He commanded. Did we do it?
Our obedience (or lack thereof) does not determine God's intent. There's no fallacy in what I posted, but there is in the dissent.

And all I asked was how does the worldwide persecution of the Church occurring near the end work with the cultural mandate and the great commission, with the governments of the baptized persecuting the baptizers.


For the record: yes, we did obey God's commands, or at least we will because everything God commands is fulfilled in Christ one way or another.
 
Gen 3:17 It was cursed BY God because of Adam.
That is not what the text states.
John 10:7-19, 25-30
Which says nothing about the gospel having reached all the nations during a government foments worldwide persecution of the nation baptizers. Context. I did not ask whether or not everyone would be gathered. I asked where the scripture was everyone would be gathered in the context of the worldwide persecution that comes while the gospel is spreading through all the nations and worldwide persecution.
He had been bound from deceiving the nations. That is what it says he was bound from doing.
Yep
Until the end of the thousand years. We see what the two beasts and the false prophet do regarding buying and selling. We see the number of a man tripled, representing a government without God and under the influence of the devil. Revelation is not chronological.
No, "we" do not see any of that, and it is not what is stated in the text itself. Nothing that was posted is stated in Rev. 20.

It's a simple question: How does a worldwide persecution that isn't actually stated in the text reconciled with the great commission-based belief the gospel spreads to all the nations. How is it the governments of the baptized nations persecute the baptizers. If there is an answer to that inquiry then it has nothing to do with....
I see you are having difficulty with concepts.
I am not having any difficulty with any concepts. Nice unnecessary ad hominem, though.

Thank you for your time.
 
Which says nothing about the gospel having reached all the nations during a government foments worldwide persecution of the nation baptizers. Context. I did not ask whether or not everyone would be gathered. I asked where the scripture was everyone would be gathered in the context of the worldwide persecution that comes while the gospel is spreading through all the nations and worldwide persecution.
That is not even what I said. Those scriptures answer the question of what is occurring now as to the great commission. The gospel is going to the nations and satan is bound from preventing that. The gospel going to the nations is Jesus gathering His sheep into the fold. And as an aside, there is a certain number that only God knows. If He knows all who are His, all those He will give to Christ, then He knows where they are, and He knows where to send His servants, and He knows what and when they must hear. When all has been done that needs to be done to gather them, the scriptures suggest TO ME that is when satan will be released from not deceiving the nations.

ANd that suggests TO ME that, given the pictures we are given in Rev of the "final battle" (for want of not having enough coffee yet to search for word you might prefer or understand) that an as yet not seen on a world wide scale and all at once everywhere, a persecution of the church. The letter's recipients were experiencing that persecution and temptation to compromise with the pagan culture. There have been times and places all through history where this has been the case. It is like battle engagements. And we are told in the scriptures that there will be a final battle, and TO ME many things suggest that will be worldwide and all at once.
 
That is not what the text states.
Gen 3:17
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

Compare that to Gen 1.

If God did not curse the earth in 3:17, what did He do and what does that mean----especially when we get to the curse on the serpent and the promise of the Seed? And what in Gen 2 did God give man dominion over? And what part of that dominion does life under the sun show we no longer have? Adam's failure, and thus ours, does not change the fact that we are still obligated to the commands of God in His intentions for us at creation. We have violated the creative order and do so on a daily basis, and in most of our ways. It Is Christ who came to remedy the situation and did, in a right now, not yet, way as far as our life and under the sun is concerned.
No, "we" do not see any of that, and it is not what is stated in the text itself. Nothing that was posted is stated in Rev. 20.
And I did not say it was stated in the text. I stated that from what is stated in the text I surmise a possibility. I stated MY view.
It's a simple question: How does a worldwide persecution that isn't actually stated in the text reconciled with the great commission-based belief the gospel spreads to all the nations. How is it the governments of the baptized nations persecute the baptizers. If there is an answer to that inquiry then it has nothing to do with....
Asked and answered.
I am not having any difficulty with any concepts. Nice unnecessary ad hominem, though.
How is perceiving from your responses that you have not grasped the concept of what was said a personal attack? Your accusation of ad hominem is however an ad hominem.
 
Here's what a more mainstream Idealist wrote about Idealism:

In the book, "Four Views on The Book of Revelation," from the Counterpoint Series, the theologian Sam Hamstra asserts and defends the Idealist view. At the end of his apologetic he writes a summary of Idealism.

1) The idealist acknowledges the apocalyptic nature of Revelation. While granting that the book contains epistolary and prophetic elements, the idealist believes that John employs the genre of apocalyptic literature to carry his message to the reader. Granted, there are some discrepancies between Revelation and typical first century apocalyptic literature, such as pseudonymity. But, in spite of a handful of minor inconsistencies, most evangelical scholars conclude the the book is apocalyptic. Thus, Thomas is correct when he states that the idealist does not treat Revelation as a book of prophecy. The idealist acknowledges that the book does contain some predictions of particular events, such as the second coming of Christ, as well as some epistolary instruction, such as that found in its letters to the churches. This acknowledgement, however, does not mean the idealist denies the reality of the specific biblical prophecy. The Bible is filled with prophesies that were fulfilled at a particular time and place, most notably, those concerning the Messiah. The idealist, however, does not believe that the interpreter should expect to find many specific prophecies in the Apocalypse of John.
2) The Idealist not only acknowledges but also interprets the text as apocalyptic literature. Gentry clearly states the implication of this conviction" "Revelation is a highly figurative book that we cannot approach with a simple straightforward literalism." While nearly every evangelcial scholar agrees that Revelation is to some degree apocalyptic, not everyone interprets Revelation as such. The idealist, however, begins with the presupposition that since the books is apocalyptic, every episode or vision is symbolic until proven otherwise. What are the grounds for nonlinear interpretation of Revelation? The answer is simple: good hermeneutics. Just as the student of scripture, recognizing the genre of a particular passage, refuses a literal interpretation of parables or of poetic literature, so that same student, recognizing the unique genre of Revelation, does not interpret Revelation from a literal perspective. In fact, acknowledging Revelation as apocalyptic, the idealist interpreter prefers the nonliteral approach to every verse in the book. For the idealist there must be good reason to refrain from a symbolic interpretation of the text.
3) The heart and soul of the idealist approach it that Revelation is an apocalyptic book that presents spiriutal precepts through symbols, rather than a book of predictive prophecy fulfilled in specific events or persons in human history. Revelation does not so much forecast events as it does set forth timeless truths concerning the battle between good and evil, which continues through the church age. When we find an event to which, or a person to whom, the prophecy is fairly applicable, we may consider it fulfilled in such an event or person - but not exhausted. This idealist approach does not mean that an event occurs repeatedly throughout history, but that the spiritual truth is timeless, finding several fulfillments throughout this dispensation.... The idealist presupposes that since the prophecy of John is delievered in apocalyptic terminaology, the purpose of Revelation is to relate spiritual truths rather than predict specific events that would be fulfilled in human history. Idealists, therefore, disassociate linkage between a symbol and an historic event, believing that symbols are multivalent in meaning and without specific historical reference................ the idealist affirms that the prophetic element in Revelation is not event oriented as the nonidealist may assume. This explains, in part, why the idealist does not interact with the preterist, the progressive dispensationalist, and the classic dispensationalist. Each of those approaches to Revelation interprets the text as if its primary purpose is to predict the unfolding of future events; the interpreter identifies the fulfillment of each episode of Revelation with a particular event or person in either the first, last, or both centuries. The idealist interpreter is not interested in expending energy on such an endeavor. Instead, he seeks to understand the idea, the spiritual truth, or the theme conveyed in the vision. In short, the hermeneutical presupposition of the idealist is clearly distinct from that held in common by each of the three other approaches presented in this volume."

4) .....The idealist, discouraged by a long history of mistaken interpretations of Revelation, insists that the clear teachings of scripture take precedent over that which is not clear. The idealist does not expect a unique or new teaching to surface in the Apocalypse; rather, he or she expects that the truths contained therein will be taught elsewhere in scripture. The idealist, affirming the fundamental purpose of scripture, believes that Revelation is not a historical treatise about the first or last centuries of the church but rather the inspired word of God given for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training a church that seeks to 'shine like stars in the universes' in the midst of a 'crooked and depraved generation.'"


Hamstra does provide one place where his view of Revelation is different than that commonly held by idealism.

"I waffle from the party line in my comments on Revelation 20-21, convinced that this section complements Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24-25, which presents a general chronological sequence of events culminating in the second coming of Christ. Some idealists are sure to criticize this exception, preferring a thematic interpretation that excludes any futurist prophetic conclusions."

I may post a comparative summary of the Amillennial pov later.
 
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Just because one Gnostic you ran across considers the whole Bible allegorical and anagogical does not mean all mystics or all Idealists are Gnostics.
Not what I said.
I was accused of making Idealism Gnostic because I claimed it reads scripture to have spiritual or mystic meaning when I never said any such thing.
I did not say you were making idealism Gnostic. I said something you claimed about the way they interpret scripture was Gnostic.
The onus is on you to prove everyone who reads scripture spiritually and/or mystically is a Gnostic. That's you claim, not mine.
It is not my claim r what I said, so I have no onus to prove it.
Here's what a more mainstream Idealist wrote about Idealism:

In the book, "Four Views on The Book of Revelation," from the Counterpoint Series, the theologian Sam Hamstra asserts and defends the Idealist view. At the end of his apologetic he writes a summary of Idealism.

1) The idealist acknowledges the apocalyptic nature of Revelation. While granting that the book contains epistolary and prophetic elements, the idealist believes that John employs the genre of apocalyptic literature to carry his message to the reader. Granted, there are some discrepancies between Revelation and typical first century apocalyptic literature, such as pseudonymity. But, in spite of a handful of minor inconsistencies, most evangelical scholars conclude the the book is apocalyptic. Thus, Thomas is correct when he states that the idealist does not treat Revelation as a book of prophecy. The idealist acknowledges that the book does contain some predictions of particular events, such as the second coming of Christ, as well as some epistolary instruction, such as that found in its letters to the churches. This acknowledgement, however, does not mean the idealist denies the reality of the specific biblical prophecy. The Bible is filled with prophesies that were fulfilled at a particular time and place, most notably, those concerning the Messiah. The idealist, however, does not believe that the interpreter should expect to find many specific prophecies in the Apocalypse of John.
2) The Idealist not only acknowledges but also interprets the text as apocalyptic literature. Gentry clearly states the implication of this conviction" "Revelation is a highly figurative book that we cannot approach with a simple straightforward literalism." While nearly every evangelcial scholar agrees that Revelation is to some degree apocalyptic, not everyone interprets Revelation as such. The idealist, however, begins with the presupposition that since the books is apocalyptic, every episode or vision is symbolic until proven otherwise. What are the grounds for nonlinear interpretation of Revelation? The answer is simple: good hermeneutics. Just as the student of scripture, recognizing the genre of a particular passage, refuses a literal interpretation of parables or of poetic literature, so that same student, recognizing the unique genre of Revelation, does not interpret Revelation from a literal perspective. In fact, acknowledging Revelation as apocalyptic, the idealist interpreter prefers the nonliteral approach to every verse in the book. For the idealist there must be good reason to refrain from a symbolic interpretation of the text.
3) The heart and soul of the idealist approach it that Revelation is an apocalyptic book that presents spiriutal precepts through symbols, rather than a book of predictive prophecy fulfilled in specific events or persons in human history. Revelation does not so much forecast events as it does set forth timeless truths concerning the battle between good and evil, which continues through the church age. When we find an event to which, or a person to whom, the prophecy is fairly applicable, we may consider it fulfilled in such an event or person - but not exhausted. This idealist approach does not mean that an event occurs repeatedly throughout history, but that the spiritual truth is timeless, finding several fulfillments throughout this dispensation.... The idealist presupposes that since the prophecy of John is delievered in apocalyptic terminaology, the purpose of Revelation is to relate spiritual truths rather than predict specific events that would be fulfilled in human history. Idealists, therefore, disassociate linkage between a symbol and an historic event, believing that symbols are multivalent in meaning and without specific historical reference................ the idealist affirms that the prophetic element in Revelation is not event oriented as the nonidealist may assume. This explains, in part, why the idealist does not interact with the preterist, the progressive dispensationalist, and the classic dispensationalist. Each of those approaches to Revelation interprets the text as if its primary purpose is to predict the unfolding of future events; the interpreter identifies the fulfillment of each episode of Revelation with a particular event or person in either the first, last, or both centuries. The idealist interpreter is not interested in expending energy on such an endeavor. Instead, he seeks to understand the idea, the spiritual truth, or the theme conveyed in the vision. In short, the hermeneutical presupposition of the idealist is clearly distinct from that held in common by each of the three other approaches presented in this volume."


There's more, but this is sufficient for understanding Idealism and its interpretive method. Hamstra does provide one place where his view of Revelation is different than that commonly held by idealism.

"I waffle from the party line in my comments on Revelation 20-21, convinced that this section complements Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24-25, which presents a general chronological sequence of events culminating in the second coming of Christ. Some idealists are sure to criticize this exception, preferring a thematic interpretation that excludes any futurist prophetic conclusions."

I may post his other points later and a comparative summary of the Amillennial pov.
Do you see anywhere in there a reference to "mystic" as a means of interpretation? And we see at the conclusion that there is not a hard and fast rule of how those with idealist leanings view the visions. I tend to think they have both principles of truth repeating as well as events (though not always literal, but are conveyed symbolically). For example we always experience death, and war, and famine, and pestilence, and persecutions, etc. in various places, in various degrees. Throughout the church age they are partial fulfillments leading up to His second coming and final judgement. I believe the visions have a progression, with an interlude in each to reassure the saints that they are kept for Christ by Christ, that leads to His second coming. I believe in this that some of Rev is relating to the future, much of it being also future to those receiving the letter, but not all of it, even though it was also active in their present also, but in particular, those things pertaining specifically to immediately before His second coming, and that it is more widespread and intense, at least in the way in which the church is persecuted.

So in these exchanges, let it be you talking to me.
 
A classic Amillennial view:

This is taken from Anthony Hoekema's defense of Amillennialism in the book, "The Meaning of the Millenium: Four Views." After affirming Jay E. Adam's suggestion the more appropriate term for "amillennialism" is "realized millennialism," Hoekema states his preference for the less "clumsy" and more historical term.

"...if we see Revelation 20:1-6 as describing what takes place during the entire history of the church, beginning with the first coming of Christ, we will have an understanding of the millennium of Revelation 20 which is quite different from [those interpreting Revelation exclusively in the futuristic sense] .... The system of interpretation of the book of Revelation which seems most satisfactory to me (though it is not without its difficulties) is that known as progressive parallelism, ably defended by William Hendriksen in 'More Than Conquerors,' His commentary on Revelation. According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of his second coming.
....chapters 20-22 comprise the last of the seven sections of the book of Revelation and therefore do not describe what follows the return of Christ. Rather, Revelation 20:1 takes us back to the beginning of the New Testament era. That this is the proper interpretation of these verses is clear not only from what has been developed [in this article], but also from the fact that [chapter 20] describes the defeat and final doom of Satan. Surely the defeat of Satan began with the first coming of Christ, as has already been clearly spelled out in chapter 12:7-9. That the millennial reign described in verses 4-6 occurs before the Second Coming of Christ is evident from the fact that the final judgment, described in verses 11-15 of the chapter is pictured as coming after the thousand-year reign. Not only in the book of Revelation but elsewhere in the New Testament the final judgment is associated with the Second Coming of Christ.... This being the case, it is obvious that the thousand-year reign of Revelation 20:4-6 must occur before and not after the Second Coming of Christ.
There is a basic difference in method of biblical interpretation employed by premillennialists and amillennialists. Premillennialists, particularly those of the dispensationalist persuasion, are committed to what is commonly called the "literal" interpretation of Old Testament prophecy.... Amillennialists, on the other hand, believe that though many Old Testament prophecies are indeed to be interpreted literally, many others are to be interpreted in a nonliteral way.... This sketch [covers] what amillennial eschatology teaches with regard to inaugurated eschatology and, second, what it teaches with reference to future eschatology. By inaugurates eschatology I mean that aspect of eschatology, which is already present now, during the gospel era. [By using the former term] we are saying that significant eschatological events have already begun to happen while other eschatological occurrences still lie in the future. Christ has won the decisive victory over sin, death, and Satan. The Kingdom of God is both present and future.... it is a present reality and a future hope. Though the last day is still future, we are still in the last days now. As far as the thousand years of Revelation 20 are concerned, we are in the millennium no..... As regards future eschatology, amillennialism affirms the following: The 'signs of the times' have both present and future relevance, the Second Coming of Christ will be a single event, at the time of Christ's return, there will be a general resurrection, both of believers and unbelievers. After the resurrection, believers who are the still alive shall suddenly be transformed and glorified. The 'rapture' of all believers now takes place. [Amillennialists] see evidence for only one Day of Judgment which will occur at the time of Christ's return. After the judgment the final state is ushered in."


If the conditions described in Post 193 are held then the reader is idealist, and if not held, then the reader is not idealist. Similarly, if there is identification with the conditions described in this post then the reader is amillennial, and if not held then the reader is not amillennial.
 
I agree, but I still have not seen any evidence the earth itself is cursed.
Gen 3:17 It was cursed BY God because of Adam. Can you not see that it is cursed. His glory is still over it and in it, but for mankind it is cursed. The law put us under a curse as well.
This curse on the ground because of Adam in Genesis 3:17 was declared to be removed by God in Genesis 8:21. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake;..."

Noah's father Lamech gave his son that particular name (meaning "rest" or "comfort") in prophetic expectance that God would be removing this curse on the ground through the actions of his own son Noah. "And he called his name 'Noah', saying, 'This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed'."

The curse on the ground because of Adam was removed long ago after the flood in Noah's day. We are not waiting for this in our future.
 
This curse on the ground because of Adam in Genesis 3:17 was declared to be removed by God in Genesis 8:21. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake;..."

Noah's father Lamech gave his son that particular name (meaning "rest" or "comfort") in prophetic expectance that God would be removing this curse on the ground through the actions of his own son Noah. "And he called his name 'Noah', saying, 'This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed'."

The curse on the ground because of Adam was removed long ago after the flood in Noah's day. We are not waiting for this in our future.
Great observation. Let me also add: the cultural mandate was re-issued!

Genesis 9:1-2
And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. "The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given.

Therefore, every mention of persecution should be understood in that context. Form the very first command ever given all through His revelation to humanity until its end, God has repeatedly and consistently directed His people to overcome, and to overcome right here on planet earth in the physical realm (not just the spiritual).

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 John 5:4-5
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

Revelation 2:26-27 ESV
The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

Revelation 3:5-6
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Revelation 3:12-13
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Revelation 3:21-22
He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

Overcome. Be overcomers. Be fruitful. Multiply. Subdue the earth. Rule over it. Make disciples of all the nations, baptize them, and teach them Jesus' commands.
 
RB, you know I am a believer in the election of believers, so please don't make me an offender for a word when I'm posting in haste. If you think the word "offer" make me sound like an Arminian I can substitute another term. The gospel was delivered
That sounds much better ~ actually, more scriptural, would be a better phrase.

The gospel was delivered to the Israelites during that last 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, which ran from AD 30 until AD 37.
3 Resurrections, you have Daniel's weeks confused~we are in the seventy's week now!

Daniel 9:24~"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

There are many questions that can be asked about this verse, but there is no need for supposition or idle speculation. Because God has answered them all, right in the context itself. Let's look at these seven questions.

1. Who are these, "Thy People?"
2. How is it determined to "finish (restrain) the transgression?"
3. What is the, "make an end" (sealing up) of Sins?
4. What is the, "making reconciliation" for iniquity?
5. How is this "Everlasting Righteousness" brought in?
6. Why is it determined to "Seal up the vision and the prophet?"
7. What is the "Anointing of the Most Holy?"

In verse 24 of Daniel chapter 9, with regard to the prophesy of these 70 weeks, God Himself has told us what He is going to be talking about. So while man speculates with private interpretations from his own mind, adding all kinds of other theories and ideas, God has told us what the 70 weeks are dealing with. All we have to do is read the scriptures and allow them to interpret themselves.

Maybe another thread on this subject.

To the Jews first has reference to the OT up until Christ's death and resurrection!
 
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3 Resurrections, you have Daniel's weeks confused~we are in the seventy's week now!
Maybe another thread on this subject.

To the Jews first has reference to the OT up until Christ's death and resurrection!
Yep, that would take us far afield from the theme of this post. I can't remember what position you adopted on GCF when this subject came up, but apparently you hold to the "gap" theory for the seventy-week prophecy, like the pre-mil-disp. do.
 
Yep, that would take us far afield from the theme of this post. I can't remember what position you adopted on GCF when this subject came up, but apparently you hold to the "gap" theory for the seventy-week prophecy, like the pre-mil-disp. do.
They hold it differently ~ they hold to a post tribulation period after Christ comes for his saints and many other such things they have invented ~ per Scofield Reference Bible thy Bible of the modern day fundamentalist.
 
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