The Book of Revelation: Amillennial/idealist Interpretive Method

[Josheb]

What do you think is the idealist approach to reading scripture and its methods of interpretation?

I have, in part already answered that question in several ways. The strictly Idealist view has at its core the belief the Bible simply recounts patterns or cycles that repeat themselves throughout human history as God's means of accomplishing various tasks in any given generation. The method by which this view is attained can begin with a plain reading of scripture but any literal reading of scripture also comes with an inherent (a priori, eisegetic, if you will) belief whatever is factually or historically occurring also serves as evidence of a pattern and comes with some form of spiritual or mystical meaning. If all the record was reporting is an isolated event that has no bearing beyond the events themselves then it is useless to those living generations later. No one believes that is the case, but we do not all take the application to future eras and people to be as symbolic, spiritualized, or mystical as the Idealist.

I noticed the "i" in "idealist" wasn't capitalized in the op. Anyone, including an Amillennialist can be idealist in degrees small or large. An Idealist is idealist first and foremost, amillennial in degrees small or large. An Amillennialist is amillennial first and foremost, idealist in degrees small or large. Same thing can be said of preterism, historicism, and futurism. We all look forward to the blessed hope, the return of Christ. That makes us futurist, not Futurists.

As far as methods go, it's starts with basic exegesis and while I don't mean to beat the horse dead, both the practice of exegesis and the fact it is our common means of understanding scripture is important. So too is the fact scripture can be read literally, allegorically, anagogically, and morally and no one reads it only one way. Idealists are heavy on the anagogic end of the spectrum. Dispensational futurists not so much. The idealist is looking at the OT mostly as examples of patterns/cycles repeating and mystically spiritual meaning is in everything.

The Idealist and the idealist use the same methods to varying degrees. If I read the posts correctly, I am more preterist and less idealist than you (and vice versa) but we're both preterist and idealist, only to different degrees in each view. Both Amillennial, not Idealist. Our Dispensational kin are going to be none of or much less of all four.

 

[Josheb]

Hi thanks

I would offer the meaning of the parables.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

What is the subject of this op?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Is the mark of the beast in Revelation a future prophecy or was it fulfilled in the past?

 

[Josheb]

Is the mark of the beast in Revelation a future prophecy or was it fulfilled in the past?

What would the Amillennial idealist say, and by what interpretive method, approach, and tools would they reach that answer?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

What would the Amillennial idealist say, and by what interpretive method, approach, and tools would they reach that answer?

It's a simple question that doesn't require knowledge of eschatological theories. It's a historical question.

 

[Arial]

These both shared the same title of "First-fruits" because they participated in the same group "First resurrection" event in AD 33. In other words, the many Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were the 144,000 "First-fruits" who came out of those broken open graves around Jerusalem that same day. Others scriptures confirm this view that I won't list here for brevity's sake.

As I have shown, there is no reason to connect the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20 with this event. Those verse do not mention a second resurrection but it is implied, and in those same verses the resurrections are connected to the first and second death. When one is able to determine what the first and second deaths are, it will tell us what the first and second resurrections are.

The first death is bodily death. (1 Cor 15:23; Heb 9:27) The second death would be more of a spiritual death, consignment to hell of the wicked. This accompanies bodily resurrection. (John 5:28-29) The first resurrection is preliminary as is the first death, the second resurrection is final and is bodily. The first resurrection is being brought to life through union with Christ. The second resurrection is the fulfillment of the first and permanent. That is when our bodies are raised incorruptible. So it has nothing to do with those who came out of their graves when Jesus breathed His last.

No, that is not a "likely" prospect. Bodily resurrections performed by Christ and the disciples were NOT "temporary". If you believe that, then our own bodily resurrections could also be considered only "temporary", as well as Christ's resurrection.

One of those things does not follow the other as a logical conclusion. One must assume a whole lot that is not given in the scriptures to arrive there.

The power of the Holy Spirit which it takes to bodily resurrect an individual endows that body with incorruptibility and immortality. Such a changed body form cannot possibly die again, since "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die" - not twice.

The Bible nowhere tells us that they were raised incorruptible. It does tell us that that happens in the bodily resurrection of the saints at Jesus' second coming. That is a part of the fullness of our salvation. In Jesus raising the dead, that was serving its purpose. To show that He was God and that He was the resurrection and the life. In those who came out of the grave it happened at the same time as the curtain being rent that kept all but the high priest out of the Holy of Holies. "This is what the new covenant promises." is what it signified. That a man can die twice is completely in the hands of God to serve His purposes. He can also make a virgin conceive a child even though that is not the normative for man. We die once because that is the way God has decreed it for mankind, but that does not mean that he cannot do anything He purposes to do.

And all those bodily-resurrected individuals are not here on earth anymore. They left in the predicted "rapture" event as the "alive and remaining" ones which Paul said would join the rest of the newly-resurrected saints at Christ's coming.

Again, not given in the scriptures. It is the product of the human mind saying,"Well that must be what it means." And that is not what Paul was saying or referring to.

This post is emphasizing that Idealists see repetitive symbolic scripture patterns that occur over the history of humanity.

That does not mean everything is repetitive or symbolic. And the repetitive symbolic patterns refer to the visions in Rev.

The second bodily resurrection event already took place at Christ's second coming, as the scriptures reveal, on Daniel's 1,335th day (which was on Pentecost day in AD 70). You and I are waiting for Christ's third coming with a third bodily resurrection event which will bring fallen mankind's history on this planet to a close. Does that make me an Idealist of sorts?

Christ has not returned yet. If He has, we are all in serious trouble. It would mean what we have is what we get. I must say, that many false teaching on the subject, and much division, and many wrong interpretations of Rev come simply from the fact of trying to date everything and then adjusting the interpretation to the dating. None of what was stated in this post would classify you as an idealist in its most condensed definition. At least not according to what knowledge and experience I have. Though you have expressed in other posts that are.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Is the mark of the beast in Revelation a future prophecy or was it fulfilled in the past?

Definitely past and done with.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Definitely past and done with.

So historically, what was this mark and how was it implemented in the past? Did people get marked on the right hand and the forehead and they couldn't buy or sell? When did that happen specifically, who did it, and what was the outcome?

 

[Arial]

It's not only a bad way to live; it bears a bad witness about Christ.

So eschatology, especially its millennialism aspect, matters/

I am not saying it doesn't matter. It isn't a salvation issue necessarily. I can distort our view of Christ because dispensationalism in particular seems to put Him on the back burner when interpreting Rev. And the premillennial view combined with the pre trib rapture, makes the book do nothing of it original intent---to encourage and strengthen the saints, and give a picture from the inside of what we have already learned. The hope that awaits us. And they do not recognize that we are now living in those times depicted in the visions (and I must stress here, they are not only not dealing with seperate things, but are not chronological) and are less prepared to deal with our own personal persecutions and sufferings---not to mention what is down the pike the closer we get to His second coming. And if anything, it is dispensationalism that distorts salvation by dividing Israel and the Church and focusing on ethnic Israel. It changes the meaning of so very much.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The first resurrection is being brought to life through union with Christ

That is not how scripture defines the "First resurrection" in Revelation 20. The "First resurrection" occurs at a single point in time, at the same time in which the millennium comes to an end.

If the "First resurrection" was specifically the condition of a soul coming to life through union with Christ, this would take place multiplied millions of times over the span of history. Which would then mean that a millennium comes to an end every time those multiplied millions come to life in union with Christ. Not possible.

That a man can die twice is completely in the hands of God to serve His purposes.

This is a belief that directly contradicts scripture's clearly stated terms, that "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die...", compared to the same way that Christ only died once for sin. Those who were bodily raised to life again in the scripture were never capable of dying again. Christ made that clear in Luke 20:35-36, saying "...neither CAN they die anymore..."

Christ has not returned yet. If He has, we are all in serious trouble. It would mean what we have is what we get. I must say, that many false teaching on the subject, and much division, and many wrong interpretations of Rev come simply from the fact of trying to date everything and then adjusting the interpretation to the dating

We are not in "serious trouble". Just because Christ fulfilled what He promised and returned for His second coming before some of those He spoke to had died (Matthew 16:27-28), this doesn't mean we today have lost out on a resurrection, or that God's plans for humanity stopped back then. We are waiting for the third resurrection event in our future that will conclude fallen mankind's history on this planet. This is based, not on a pre-supposed dating program, but in a recognition of the time-relevant language which scripture itself employs, and which we are obligated to honor.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So historically, what was this mark and how was it implemented in the past? Did people get marked on the right hand and the forehead and they couldn't buy or sell? When did that happen specifically, who did it, and what was the outcome?

I'd rather not have @Josheb come out of his corner and smack me on the head for going off-topic here, but if you want to put up a different post with that theme, I'll respond to it there with details. I've already mentioned it on this site before on another post, but I can repeat it.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I'd rather not have @Josheb come out of his corner and smack me on the head for going off-topic here, but if you want to put up a different post with that theme, I'll respond to it there with details. I've already mentioned it on this site before on another post, but I can repeat it.

You want others to spend time searching for some other post you wrote instead of summarising and giving an answer here. Noted.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You want others to spend time searching for some other post you wrote instead of summarising and giving an answer here. Noted.

It may appear that I am dodging your request, but really, I am pressed for time with a work order on my table that needs delivery by Monday. I would like nothing better than to spend the entire day responding fully to your post, but I have a living to make meanwhile also.

You want a one sentence response? The Tyrian shekel copy minted by the Jews: required by the high priesthood from AD 19 through AD 66 for any buying and selling in the temple, with a set of them worn in the headdress of women to denote their marital status.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

It may appear that I am dodging your request, but really, I am pressed for time with a work order on my table that needs delivery by Monday. I would like nothing better than to spend the entire day responding fully to your post, but I have a living to make meanwhile also.

You want a one sentence response? The Tyrian shekel copy minted by the Jews: required by the high priesthood from AD 19 through AD 66 for any buying and selling in the temple, with a set of them worn in the headdress of women to denote their marital status.

I don't think so. But you could be in your 20s mentally.

 

[Arial]

I have, in part already answered that question in several ways. The strictly Idealist view has at its core the belief the Bible simply recounts patterns or cycles that repeat themselves throughout human history as God's means of accomplishing various tasks in any given generation. The method by which this view is attained can begin with a plain reading of scripture but any literal reading of scripture also comes with an inherent (a priori, eisegetic, if you will) belief whatever is factually or historically occurring also serves as evidence of a pattern and comes with some form of spiritual or mystical meaning. If all the record was reporting is an isolated event that has no bearing beyond the events themselves then it is useless to those living generations later. No one believes that is the case, but we do not all take the application to future eras and people to be as symbolic, spiritualized, or mystical as the Idealist.

I will just respond the this section as it pretty much covers the rest.

When I posted the OP it was dealing with the idealist approach to the interpretation of Revelation. Here you are attaching it to a method of interpreting the entire Bible. As far as I know, the differing categories are not considered to be something that runs through consistently as a means of interpretation. It too heavily classifies people and generally speaking, I think people read the Bible as it is presented, and they learn and grow in what they learn and what they see. As they seek God.

For example in our first read through of the OT we see historical facts that present the activity of God in them. We see genres but may not recognize them as genres. We see anthropomorphic language applied to God, and we see ideas presented symbolically etc. And eventually, hopefully, we begin to see the continuity of the entire book from cover to cover. One story. Many moving parts. God revealing Himself in the story of redemption. And we learn to separate one genre from another in our interpretations of scripture, and interpret accordingly. We do see repeated patterns---nothing new under the sun after all----but we see much of the repetition as a partial fulfillment of what is to come. For example we see even in Revelation in the judgements, parallels to the plagues in Egypt. We can see the Exodus as a precursor to the deliverance Jesus brings that is eternal. The Israelites wandering in the desert a type of the believers journey that takes place in the kingdom of darkness (the world, the flesh, and the devil) but kept safe in Christ as He goes before us, bringing us Home. The sacrifices meant to lead us to Christ. When we read the prophecies in the OT such as the visions in Dan. we know we are not being shown a literal figure, but symbols representing something.

There are a lot of mysteries in the OT but it is not mystical. And those mysteries were revealed in the NT. To say that the idealist interprets scripture mystically or according to set patterns is wrong. Besides all should not be classified the same. Covenant theology typically interprets Rev from the idealist pov as described in the quote I gave form the Reformation study Bible. It is preterism, historicism, idealism, and futurism, that are compared side by side in interpretive approaches. It is Covenant theology and dispensationalism that deal with the framework for interpretation. And there is no mysticism in covenant theology either.

 

[Arial]

That is not how scripture defines the "First resurrection" in Revelation 20. The "First resurrection" occurs at a single point in time, at the same time in which the millennium comes to an end.

If the "First resurrection" was specifically the condition of a soul coming to life through union with Christ, this would take place multiplied millions of times over the span of history. Which would then mean that a millennium comes to an end every time those multiplied millions come to life in union with Christ. Not possible.

That is your view. It is not mine.

I can't find any logic in the above conclusions.

This is a belief that directly contradicts scripture's clearly stated terms, that "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die...", compared to the same way that Christ only died once for sin. Those who were bodily raised to life again in the scripture were never capable of dying again. Christ made that clear in Luke 20:35-36, saying "...neither CAN they die anymore..."

I guess you did not understand what I said, or simply don't believe that about God.

We are not in "serious trouble". Just because Christ fulfilled what He promised and returned for His second coming before some of those He spoke to had died (Matthew 16:27-28), this doesn't mean we today have lost out on a resurrection, or that God's plans for humanity stopped back then. We are waiting for the third resurrection event in our future that will conclude fallen mankind's history on this planet. This is based, not on a pre-supposed dating program, but in a recognition of the time-relevant language which scripture itself employs, and which we are obligated to honor.

Does the Bible say anything about a third resurrection? Perhaps you meant Christ's third coming. So let me rephrase my question. Does the Bible say anything about His coming three times?

 

[Arial]

I've devoted a few decades to the study of eschatology and soteriology and done so from diverse perspective and a plethora of authors, having started out as a Lindsay/Smith-informed Dispensational Premillennialist. I find it a horrible eschatology built on profoundly unscriptural and irrationally presumptive and eisegetic methods and I could consume many a thread with criticism.

I too started with the dispensationalist view of at least the rapture and the seven year tribulation, though I did not know it was dispensational. It was all I heard, read, or was taught and so I thought it was true. It hung around in the background of my thinking and pretty much left that book alone after my first reading of it in my read through the Bible, because the puzzle gave me a headache. And it was Lindsey's book The Late Great Planet Earth that caused me at last to sit up and consider that the Bible might be true, and maybe even what I had been looking for all my life. Turns out it was, this Jesus of the Bible. So I said the prayer he naturally gave as a free will bloke, but I prefaced it with "Just in case this is ture." But when I woke up the next morning I knew that every word in the Bible was true, and set out to read them. So God gets us however we need to be got.

But it is a very hard thing to let go of and to learn to read the Bible without all that indoctrination coming into play. To be able to see the scriptures in a different way, through a different lens. Just as it is difficult to come out of a religion or cult one grew up in that has redefined Biblical words and firmly planted those meanings into one's head so that it is what they see every time they come to the word. Brains washed. I learned to do both those things.

 

[Red Baker]

Is the mark of the beast in Revelation a future prophecy or was it fulfilled in the past?

Greetings Dave,

Scriptures interpret scriptures, the mark of the beast is very easy to understand as long as one stays with God's word, if not, then it is open season!

Revelation 13: 17,18~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

For it is a number of a man VOID OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

Who has the wisdom God? I'll tell you who~the man that trust only in the word of God! Here it is:

Zachariah 13:7-9~"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

So I ask this question: What is two third of a whole?..... 66% percent ~ or, 666 two third of the whole.

Only a remnant are saved in comparison to the whole~the man that has the mark of the beast ( known by wicked deeds and hatred toward God ) shall be cut off, and the one third shall be refine as silver is refined, they are try as gold is tested to be pure, these alone are those that keep the testimony of Jesus Christ, while the majority follows the beast, or the antichrist kingdom of this world and at the end they shall be cut off and destroyed.

Is the mark of the beast in Revelation a future prophecy or was it fulfilled in the past?

Folks are born with the mark of the beast ~ it is called human depravity which is at enmity against God.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Do I have the wisdom of God should be our main question~only we you are trusting in the scriptures to provide for us answers to the hidden truths of God in his word.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Idealist and the idealist use the same methods to varying degrees. If I read the posts correctly, I am more preterist and less idealist than you (and vice versa) but we're both preterist and idealist, only to different degrees in each view. Both Amillennial, not Idealist. Our Dispensational kin are going to be none of or much less of all four

I wonder why you use the word idealist as a way of dividing two different study laws .The literal and the signified both come as different idea'

Remember the whole time there were kings in Israel (the abomination of desolation ) that period signified period of time used as a used as a figure (parable) until the time of reformation. using the temporal things seen to reveal the unseen eternal things of God .

Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation

The temporal historically must be mixed with the signified understanding of the gospel .In that way mixing what the eyes see the temporal thing of earth with the unseen eternal things. . . without parable figures of speech Christ spoke not in parables .

Digging rightly dividing is required

 

[Josheb]

It's a simple question that doesn't require knowledge of eschatological theories. It's a historical question.

It's also a question not directly related to the op.