The Ability To Choose - Free Will

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well let me give you something from Fuller to help your side. He taught what is called Duty Faith. It means everyone has a Duty to believe the Gospel and be Saved. He based this partly on the First Commandment; thou Shalt have Jesus Christ as your LORD and Savior. All have the Law written on their heart...

Imagine a Calvinist teaching this...

I would call this we all have to come to the point we are forced to make a decision.

Continue in unbelief and remain condemned, Or repent and come to faith and be made alive

I believe everyone becomes God conscious at one time at least in their life. and how they react will determine what God does.

I have spoken to missionaries who has entered deep dark Africa. and when they got to these people. the people cry out because God told them he was sending people to them, they were ready to hear the message

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

During my formative years, I got Saved in an ARBCA Denomination Calvinist Church, got Married and moved to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church...

This is why I'm a middle man...

nothing wrong with being a middle man

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A horse and a mule can choose, that's why they must be bridled - to train them to follow a will that is not their own.

I can sort of see this, But if it was in their nature. they would not need to be trained..

I have some experience with both horses and mules. (Mules are more playful and frisky than horses, who are more skittish).

We are little different than an animal. But as Jesus said - His yoke is easy and the burden light. (Yet another dumb animal reference, this time referencing an ox, the more compliant working animal...)

So basically, we are like an ox that Jesus has yoked for His work.

What freedom is here with our comparison to animals you purchase for work and train to a yoke?

Again, God said he would teach and he would lead.

He told them not to be like the horse or mule. who needs pulled. or led.. But to willingly follow and learn from God

 

[Hazelelponi]

I can sort of see this, But if it was in their nature. they would not need to be trained..

Again, God said he would teach and he would lead.

He told them not to be like the horse or mule. who needs pulled. or led.. But to willingly follow and learn from God

Can the enemy of God, draw near to God?

Jesus, if you noticed, was speaking to Israel, people who were already the people of God, already worshippers of Him.

My sheep hear my voice.

God is teaching me, and leading me - and training me to His yoke.

And sometimes I am like a mule, and sometimes I'm like the wild horse, and other times I make an excellent ox and other times I'm just a sheep.

But I try and be the sheep, even if they are little escape artists... Lol. (I try not to do that, at all... Lol)

And yes, clearly I farmed...

 

[ReverendRV]

I would call this we all have to come to the point we are forced to make a decision.

Continue in unbelief and remain condemned, Or repent and come to faith and be made alive

I believe everyone becomes God conscious at one time at least in their life. and how they react will determine what God does.

I have spoken to missionaries who has entered deep dark Africa. and when they got to these people. the people cry out because God told them he was sending people to them, they were ready to hear the message

Nothing determines what God does...

Let me ask you this; which comes first, Faith or Grace?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Can the enemy of God, draw near to God?

Can God draw near to his enemy?

Jesus, if you noticed, was speaking to Israel, people who were already the people of God, already worshippers of Him.

People who had rejected him, and continued to disobey him

My sheep hear my voice.

God is teaching me, and leading me - and training me to His yoke.

Yes. are you going to listen. or will you not listen?

And sometimes I am like a mule, and sometimes I'm like the wild horse, and other times I make an excellent ox and other times I'm just a sheep.

But I try and be the sheep, even if they are little escape artists... Lol. (I try not to do that, at all... Lol)

And yes, clearly I farmed...

yes we are sheep. Stupid animals.. that's why we as gods children need to draw near to him, but also know. he will leave the whole flock when we stray to come get us (i know this firsthand)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Nothing determines what God does...

I disagree.

God knowing Adam would sin, determined to redeem mankind. before he even created him.

God also repented. and saved Noah and 8 people as he flooded the earth. because no one followed him

Let me ask you this; which comes first, Faith or Grace?

Faith

Adam trusted God. up until the time he sinned, then Adam had to be given grace.

Grace only came after the fall. and is the only means of restored fellowship. But faith is still there

By grace through faith.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Can God draw near to his enemy?

Ahhh but that's not freewill.

That's God's influence.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Ahhh but that's not freewill.

Ahh but is it?

God drew near to Israel. did they receive him freely? or did they crucify him?

That's God's influence.

Adam knew God intimately. Saw first hand the loving God he was. and how he had everything he ever needed.

He walked personally with God.

Yet he caused the fall of mankind..

Did God fail or did Adam fail?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Ahh but is it?

God drew near to Israel. did they receive him freely? or did they crucify him?

God drew near to Israel and He was rejected to the last. Even those closest turned their back.

That's your freewill. Without God stepping in to change their hearts they won't come to Him.

This is the point of salvation. If we would choose God and follow Him of our own accord we wouldn't have needed God Himself to intervene in history to save.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God drew near to Israel and He was rejected to the last. Even those closest turned their back.

That's your freewill. Without God stepping in to change their hearts they won't come to Him.

lol. He came to them, and cried over them, saying his desire was to draw them as a mother hen, but they were not willing.

Matt 23: 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Yes. there is free will

This is the point of salvation. If we would choose God and follow Him of our own accord we wouldn't have needed God Himself to intervene in history to save.

God did intervene. But he did not overrule free will. nor did he keep the truth from people

When the lost stand before God. they will not have the excuse yuo did not let me know the truth. They not only knew it, they willfully rejected it in unbelief.

God will be glorified. for all eternity. Because God did not send them to their deaths. He offered them salvation. they rejected it, and rejected him

 

[ReverendRV]

Faith

See, now this is the problem...

Arminianism calls Illumination "Prevenient Grace". Prevenient simply means 'to go before'; meaning Grace goes before Faith. I came up with a Term for people like you who think Faith goes before Illumination; you're saved by "Prevenient Faith" through grace. You would have Illumination take place after Faith; why be Illuminated afterwards? Since as you say, Faith is the Gift of God; how is THAT not a Prevenient Grace?

If you were an Arminian, you would have the Grace of Illumination precede your Belief in the Truth. Even in Provisionism, they believe the Holy Spirit and the Gospel are the Grace of God that goes before Faith...

Are you a Provisionist?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

See, now this is the problem...

Arminianism calls Illumination "Prevenient Grace". Prevenient simply means 'to go before'; meaning Grace goes before Faith. I came up with a Term for people like you who think Faith goes before Illumination; you're saved by Prevenient Faith through grace. You would have Illumination take place after Faith; why be Illuminated afterwards? Since as you say, Faith is the Gift of God; how is that not a Prevenient Grace?

I think you misunderstood me.

I said faith came first. Adam did not need grace, Adam walked with God through faith up until the time he sinned.

Then Grace had to come first.

If you were an Arminian, you would have the Grace of Illumination precede your Belief in the Truth. Even in Provisionism, they believe the Holy Spirit and the Gospel are the Grace of God that goes before Faith...

Are you a Provisionist?

I believe God draws me,
He convicts me
He teaches me what I can not know on my own.
And he demands I make a decision.

for it is by GRACE (grace comes first) we have been saved through faith

Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

 

[ReverendRV]

I think you misunderstood me.

I said faith came first. Adam did not need grace, Adam walked with God through faith up until the time he sinned.

Then Grace had to come first.

I believe God draws me,
He convicts me
He teaches me what I can not know on my own.
And he demands I make a decision.

for it is by GRACE (grace comes first) we have been saved through faith

Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Forgive me; I can see how Calvinists can read the wrong thing out of people's Posts...

I understand you better. I think all the Calvinists here will disagree with you that Unfallen Adam didn't need God's Grace. Adam may not have needed Prevenient Grace or Irresistible Grace before the Fall, but even the Second Adam needed God's Grace after his Temptation...

So you are right; Unfallen Adam didn't need Redemptive Grace...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Forgive me; I can see how Calvinists can read the wrong thing out of people's Posts...

lol. Its all good. Like why I do not like to discuss ISMS.. its too easy to try to read what a person says by what we think not by what they actually said (through filters)

I understand you better. I think all the Calvinists here will disagree with you that Unfallen Adam didn't need God's Grace.

That would be a first. If this is true, i did not know this.

What did Adam not deserve before his fallen state?

Adam may not have needed Prevenient Grace or Irresistible Grace before the Fall, but even the Second Adam needed God's Grace after his Temptation...

So you are right; Unfallen Adam didn't need Redemptive Grace...

I just call grace grace. and try not to get into all these different terms. (I think they cause more confusion..)

Grace is Gods unmerited favor

 

[ReverendRV]

What did Adam not deserve before his fallen state?

The Unfallen Adam didn't deserve Everlasting Life or Eternal Damnation. The two Trees represent these, and he hadn't eaten from either at this time...

Covenant Theology teaches that the Trees represent the Law of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

See how Basic I am? That's because I'm a Fundamentalist. I have found that the Principles of Fundamentalism have made Calvinism easy. You will hear me call myself either a Calvinist, Baptist, New Calvinist, Fundamentalist, or a Fullerite. None of this is a denial that I am only a Christian...

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

 

[ReverendRV]

...

I try to be honest and amicable. Forums need more of this...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The Unfallen Adam didn't deserve Everlasting Life or Eternal Damnation.

actually he would have lived forever if he did not die.

so he did not need eternal life, at least as I see it

The two Trees represent these, and he hadn't eaten from either at this time...

Covenant Theology teaches that the Trees represent the Law of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

I have to refresh my memory on what covenant theology is. I agree. the tree of life is Christ. But I am not sure I agree the other is the law.

 

[ReverendRV]

actually he would have lived forever if he did not die.

so he did not need eternal life, at least as I see it



I have to refresh my memory on what covenant theology is. I agree. the tree of life is Christ. But I am not sure I agree the other is the law.

Hang around, we've got time. But right now I'm on my way to get Married...