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The Ability To Choose - Free Will

I never said it was not limited,

Again, I am free to chose between two or more decision.

But it is also limited

Freedom. Is how I see it,

While I am more free now. As all things are lawful after I am saved.

I was still free before. When God called me.
Perhaps we're closer than you think. Calvinists Confess the Liberty of the Will is established too...

When I was an Independent Fundamental Baptist (they are not Calvinists), they also believed people are Unable to Believe without God's Grace. Inability due to Depravity is not a foreign concept in the Church. What's wrong with agreeing with Us?
 
I am not familiar with this terminology, can you clarify?
By 'mathematical use of words', I mean something like, logic built upon what words mean (or even, sometimes, on what they appear to mean), and not with relevance to earlier or known facts, in order to draw conclusions.

We see some of the same in Hebrews 6, though about a somewhat different subject.

I'm saying that Romans 7 can be put into a flowchart to show Paul's logic. Nevertheless, he flips back and forth through terms like 'died to the law' in comparing our situation with an actual woman married to a man who dies, because through Christ (somehow—he doesn't explain in the immediate context) we have died to the law of the flesh. If it wasn't Scripture, I would have cried foul, for false equivalence. But if that is all I see, I have more to learn.

This is the comparative logic he uses to end up saying that we died to what bound us, so that we can live in the way of the Spirit. There is a way to follow all that (which includes quite a bit that I didn't mention) that makes no logical leaps, other than a few assumptions explained in other parts of Romans and other Scriptures, except for, as I said, these strange jumps from earthly law to Spiritual law, and incomprehensible (to me) applications that I would never have thought of, yet to him are perfectly sensible.

Let me give an example of that last. In one place he says, "What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?" I can't understand that logic. If, like I said, it was anything but Scripture, I would see false equivalence and discard it out of hand as poor logic. It is bad enough to say that what comes up must come down, when it would seem more accurate to say that what comes down to earth goes up to heaven, but there he does one better —what ascended must have come from under the earth!

Back to Romans 7, he continues to talk that way, with occasional explanations —"in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells no good thing"— else he would have to deal with protests that the Spirit of God dwells in him.

It gets even more complicated than the first part of Romans 7, yet it still can be put into a logical flowchart, but full of figures of speech, half-analyses, and unproven equivalences. I'm sure that if I knew Scripture and the mind of God as well as Paul did, that I would be able to work out the riddles I see here, but so far, I'm satisfied knowing and understanding the fact that we died to the law, and need to be putting to death the works of the flesh, because there is nothing good there, and that we have a conclusion to the matter: "So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." —That, and, a couple of seminal moments that make perfectly good sense: "Shall we sin that grace may abound? Of course not!", and "Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
 
How can we have a free, Free Will, when we're not free from the Old Man we used to be?
But according to Romans 7 we are free from the old man. Sorta.

We must be putting the Old Man to death.

Either way, the use of "free" in the Biblical sense, is not what we are discussing in this thread. "If the Son of Man shall therefore make you free, ye shall be free indeed!" is not talking about a lack of causation or even compulsion.

To go there is, to some degree a matter of speculation, but I bet a good explanation for what those insisting on self-determinism should find a paradox or riddle, if they were consistent, could be found in exploring what God means by that verse.

In my speculation on it, I find what appears to be a path toward an answer within the term, 'IN CHRIST', and, maybe, that combined with, 'MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD'. But I have heard the Pelagian appeal only to the latter, as though the born again is no more free than the lost.

It's tempting, no doubt, as Reformed or Calvinists to appeal only to the matter of the lost being slaves to sin, and there is plenty of application of being IN HIM to that. But there is more —I'm sure of it— concerning perhaps even our sentient wills as temporal humans vs our sentient will(s) IN CHRIST.
 
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Nope

God did not make the horse in his image

He made you and I in his image.

we are not even close.
Then, why the verse? Apparently it is possible for us to be like the mule!
 
That's His business.

Paul has a great answer in Romans 9
Actually it is our business too.

Since we are the ones who are supposed to love and adore him by his character.

Romans 9 can be taklen a few ways. The fatalistic view of romans 9 is flawed.

I would study it some more. Especially taking into account the context. What was being said about God and israel in that day. and the OT passages paul quoted. Also. romans 9 - 11 should go together as a pause in Pauls words to the romans church to discuss major questions. such as Did God make a mistake in choosing Israel.
 
Perhaps we're closer than you think. Calvinists Confess the Liberty of the Will is established too...

When I was an Independent Fundamental Baptist (they are not Calvinists), they also believed people are Unable to Believe without God's Grace.
I agree,

I just believe Gods grace is extended to all mankind.
Inability due to Depravity is not a foreign concept in the Church. What's wrong with agreeing with Us?
I think we agree, as far as the salvation process. about 90% or more

there is just a few points we disagree..
 
Then, why the verse? Apparently it is possible for us to be like the mule!
A horse and mule can not choose.

We can.

thats why A horse and mule must be bridled.

He said do not be like them./ come of your own will..

lets look closely

Ps 32: 8: I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will guide you with My eye.

9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule,
Which have no understanding,
Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle,
Else they will not come near you.


ie, take my teaching and my guidance. do it freely.. do not be like those with no understanding.
 
But according to Romans 7 we are free from the old man. Sorta.

We must be putting the Old Man to death.

Either way, the use of "free" in the Biblical sense, is not what we are discussing in this thread. "If the Son of Man shall therefore make you free, ye shall be free indeed!" is not talking about a lack of causation or even compulsion.

To go there is, to some degree a matter of speculation, but I bet a good explanation for what those insisting on self-determinism should find a paradox or riddle, if they were consistent, could be found in exploring what God means by that verse.

In my speculation on it, I find what appears to be a path toward an answer within the term, 'IN CHRIST', and, maybe, that combined with, 'MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD'. But I have heard the Pelagian appeal only to the latter, as though the born again is no more free than the lost.

It's tempting, no doubt, as Reformed or Calvinists to appeal only to the matter of the lost being slaves to sin, and there is plenty of application of being IN HIM to that. But there is more —I'm sure of it— concerning perhaps even our sentient wills as temporal humans vs our sentient will(s) IN CHRIST.
Well said!

It's a gruesome picture of our Old Man crucified; and still stirring like the Walking Dead...
 
I agree,

I just believe Gods grace is extended to all mankind.

I think we agree, as far as the salvation process. about 90% or more

there is just a few points we disagree..
You will find I'm not your average 5-Point Calvinist, I'm liberal compared to most here. Perhaps I'm a 5-Point Fullerite instead; they explain the 5-Points differently; but in a more palatable way to people like you...

You can probably already tell I'm different...
 
You will find I'm not your average 5-Point Calvinist, I'm liberal compared to most here. Perhaps I'm a 5-Point Fullerite instead; they explain the 5-Points differently; but in a more palatable way to people like you...

You can probably already tell I'm different...
I used to be called a 3 point. I am not even sure I am that to be honest.

What I see in you is an ability to discuss with humility.

Never heard of a fullerite. I am learning a lot I never knew even existed..lol
 
I used to be called a 3 point. I am not even sure I am that to be honest.

What I see in you is an ability to discuss with humility.

Never heard of a fullerite. I am learning a lot I never knew even existed..lol
Andrew Fuller used to be a Hyper Calvinist but became a liberal 5-Point Calvinist. He's a father of Missions, and the father of Sunday School; two things a Hyper Calvinist would never have done...

Primitive Baptists always talk down about him...
 
I used to be called a 3 point. I am not even sure I am that to be honest.

What I see in you is an ability to discuss with humility.

Never heard of a fullerite. I am learning a lot I never knew even existed..lol
Well let me give you something from Fuller to help your side. He taught what is called Duty Faith. It means everyone has a Duty to believe the Gospel and be Saved. He based this partly on the First Commandment; thou Shalt have Jesus Christ as your LORD and Savior. All have the Law written on their heart...

Imagine a Calvinist teaching this...
 
Andrew Fuller used to be a Hyper Calvinist but became a liberal 5-Point Calvinist. He's a father of Missions, and the father of Sunday School; two things a Hyper Calvinist would never have done...

Primitive Baptists always talk down about him...
Interesting.

I was born again in a GARBC Baptist Church. In my young life, I attended fundamental Baptist churches, Independent Baptist churches. My last pastor before I departed for the military was a Disciple of Colonel RB Thieme Jr of the baraka (spelling?) church in texas. a graduate of the Dallas Theological Seminary. I spent all my teenage years studying theology proper. Greek and hebrew, the ICE principle of hermeneutics etc etc.

During the military I attended the same types of baptist churches. and left the church in the early 2000's when I lost faith in the church. I become a prodigal child for 5 years. Until my best friend called me at the end when I was broken, and invited me to his non denominational church. I have been a member there for 20 years now. and actually lead cell groups. and home church bible teachings.

I have had an Odd journey to say the least
 
Interesting.

I was born again in a GARBC Baptist Church. In my young life, I attended fundamental Baptist churches, Independent Baptist churches. My last pastor before I departed for the military was a Disciple of Colonel RB Thieme Jr of the baraka (spelling?) church in texas. a graduate of the Dallas Theological Seminary. I spent all my teenage years studying theology proper. Greek and hebrew, the ICE principle of hermeneutics etc etc.

During the military I attended the same types of baptist churches. and left the church in the early 2000's when I lost faith in the church. I become a prodigal child for 5 years. Until my best friend called me at the end when I was broken, and invited me to his non denominational church. I have been a member there for 20 years now. and actually lead cell groups. and home church bible teachings.

I have had an Odd journey to say the least
During my formative years, I got Saved in an ARBCA Denomination Calvinist Church, got Married and moved to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church...

This is why I'm a middle man...
 
A horse and mule can not choose.

We can.

thats why A horse and mule must be bridled.

A horse and a mule can choose, that's why they must be bridled - to train them to follow a will that is not their own.

I have some experience with both horses and mules. (Mules are more playful and frisky than horses, who are more skittish).

We are little different than an animal. But as Jesus said - His yoke is easy and the burden light. (Yet another dumb animal reference, this time referencing an ox, the more compliant working animal...)

So basically, we are like an ox that Jesus has yoked for His work.
 
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