The Ability To Choose - Free Will

[makesends]

Nope

God did not make the horse in his image

He made you and I in his image.

we are not even close.

You are referring to physical substance. Not sentience.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You are referring to physical substance. Not sentience.

So just look like God physically?

think about what you just said.

 

[makesends]

So just look like God physically?

think about what you just said.

You should know that isn't what I said. What I said should have been more than clear enough to deal with the subject at hand and not be going off into further tangential noise. Those that looked upon the bronze serpent were healed of their physical illness —they were not thereby forgiven of their sins and saved. You are comparing the two things beyond what Scriptures do in comparing them. You are making one (the physical) the same as the one (the spiritual). They were not.

Now, I'm going to cut this off, too, like I did in the other thread, by pointing out that this attempted shaming —I quote, "think about what you just said"— is logically fallacious by irrelevancy. If you disagree that what you have done is attempted shaming, and not logically fallacious in irrelevancy, then say so and show its relevancy. This must be resolved before continuing this conversation between us, per rule 4.4.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You should know that isn't what I said.

Yes I should. But I did not know any other way to take it. which is why I asked.

In the context of we were made after Gods image.

What I said should have been more than clear enough to deal with the subject at hand and not be going off into further tangential noise. Those that looked upon the bronze serpent were healed of their physical illness —

But it was a symbol was it not.

As they were healed. so to was the son of man lifted that we may be healed.

they were not thereby forgiven of their sins and saved. You are comparing the two things beyond what Scriptures do in comparing them. You are making one (the physical) the same as the one (the spiritual). They were not.

lol. John made the analogy I did not.

There are symols all over scripture that point us to the spiritual understanding or truth. This is just one of them

the bronze serpent was a type of Christ. Their healing was a type of us being healed.

Now, I'm going to cut this off, too, like I did in the other thread, by pointing out that this attempted shaming —I quote, "think about what you just said"— is logically fallacious by irrelevancy. If you disagree that what you have done is attempted shaming, and not logically fallacious in irrelevancy, then say so and show its relevancy. This must be resolved before continuing this conversation between us, per rule 4.4.

I asked you in context of saying what appeared to be we are phsycially made in Gods image, to think about what you said.

In my mind, this is what you said.

If you want to invoke whatever, feel free. I stand by what I said, I was asking you think think seriously about what it appears you said to me, in to shame you. but to get you to think

 

[ReverendRV]

What is free will?
Does man have free will?

I know there is a lot of talk about Reformed Christians (Calvinists) not believing in free will. But scripture always addresses man as a being who not only is capable of making decisions but is also responsible for the decisions he makes.

Simply, man is a creature of options. He is one constantly confronted with alternatives between which he chooses, saying yes to one and no to another.

Mans ability to make choices, sets him apart from all other creatures.

The ability to make choices is basic to human exsistence. Apart from this ability there can be no responsibility, no dependability and no planning.

Thoughts?

Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will is a Will which is Free from the "Old Man" known as Remaining Sin within. Only God is Sinless, and has a Will Free from the control of Intrinsic Sin. When Sin is Intrinsic, like Remaining Sin inside you; THAT Free Will is much like the Will a Pilot has if his Co-Pilot is the Old Man he used to be...

When we Sin, it is no longer Us; but Remaining Sin that does it. What does this have to say to Us about our Will? It's worse for the unredeemed; they are still the Old Man we used to be. Their Pilot, their Sin, hasn't been crucified. The Mind that is set on the Flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's Law; indeed, it cannot...

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will is a Will which is Free from the "Old Man" known as Remaining Sin within. Only God is Sinless, and has a Will Free from the control of Intrinsic Sin. When Sin is Intrinsic, like Remaining Sin inside you; THAT Free Will is much like the Will a Pilot has if his Co-Pilot is the Old Man he used to be...

When we Sin, it is no longer Us; but Remaining Sin that does it. What does this have to say to Us about our Will? It's worse for the unredeemed; they are still the Old Man we used to be. Their Pilot, their Sin, hasn't been crucified. The Mind that is set on the Flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's Law; indeed, it cannot...

I have always said that before regeneration the only free will I had was that I was free to sin.

When we Sin, it is no longer Us

This is the part that is hard for me to get a grasp on Romans 7:14ff

 

[ReverendRV]

I have always said that before regeneration the only free will I had was that I was free to sin.


This is the part that is hard for me to get a grasp on Romans 7:14ff

Getting a grasp on it believing, takes God at his Word. Sola Scriptura is the answer; the Bible is the Arbiter for religious disputes. The Bible calls our Remaining Sin the Old Man within; we can be Bipolar...

I'll Paste one of my Gospel Tracts about it...

 

[makesends]

I have always said that before regeneration the only free will I had was that I was free to sin.


This is the part that is hard for me to get a grasp on Romans 7:14ff

It is an abstract/rhetorical form of dialog. He is using a mathematical use of words and meanings, to make a point. He is not denying that there is more to it than that, but dealing with the subject at hand. It is almost a form of hyperbole.

Sometimes that kind of speaking is necessary to get across what is actually going on within us, who have one foot in Heaven while the other is running about on this earth.

 

[ReverendRV]

Getting a grasp on it takes believing God at his Word. Sola Scriptura is the answer; the Bible is the Arbiter for religious disputes. The Bible calls our Remaining Sin the Old Man; we can be Bipolar...

I'll Paste one of my Gospel Tracts about it...

Dorian Gray ~ by ReverendRV * March 18

Ephesians 4:22 KJV; That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Have you ever wondered why a Christian may not seem to behave very much different than you? The Bible says that the Christian should be Conformed into the image of Jesus, but often it appears that the believer is more conformed to the image of the World. The Apostle Paul was very concerned about this, even in his own person. Paul said that when he did the bad things he didn’t want to do, it was remaining Sin within him that did it. As we can see, Paul would go on to give this remaining Sin a proper name; the ‘Old Man’. The reason I decided to write this Gospel Tract is because I have just been diagnosed with Diabetes. The old Man within me has led me to this through Gluttony, but when I confessed this in Church I told them that my identity would not be Brother Miller the Diabetic; the Old Man inside me is the Diabetic. This brought to my Mind an image of what the Old Man must look like; a degenerate, diseased, cowering old man…

In the story called ‘The Picture of Dorian Gray’, we see a similar portrait of the Old Man. The Novel tells of a young man named Dorian Gray, the subject of a painting by artist Basil Hallward. Basil is very impressed by Dorian's beauty and becomes infatuated with him, thinking his beauty is responsible for a new mode in his art. Dorian meets Lord Henry Wotton, a friend of Basil, and becomes enthralled by Lord Henry's world view. Espousing a new Hedonism, Henry suggests the only things worth pursuing in life are beauty and fulfilment of the senses. Realizing that one day his beauty will fade, Dorian expresses a desire to sell his Soul to ensure the portrait Basil painted would age rather than he. Dorian's wish is fulfilled, and when he subsequently pursues a life of Debauchery, the portrait serves as a reminder of the effect each act had upon his Soul. Each Sin displayed as a disfigurement of his form, or through a sign of aging. ~ No wonder the Christian can seem no different than the world; but in saying this we find out the true condition of the World. Have you ever told a Lie? What does your portrait look like? Have you also lived the Life of Hedonism? Perhaps you clean up well but inside you are full of dead mans bones! The bad news is that in your heart, you are the Old Man; there is no New Man within to wrestle against the Old Man. If God judged you, would you be innocent? Or will you be guilty and Hellbound?

Dorian Gray grew to hate the Old Man inside the portrait. He had a good idea when he tried to clean up his act; but it was all in vain; his portrait still continued to age. Dorian stabbed the portrait with a knife; another good idea but he used the wrong weapon. Dorian aged and died in his Sins, and the portrait returned to its youthful appearance. ~ The only instrument which can save us from our Old Man is the nail of a Cross. Jesus is the GodMan who was born of a Virgin and lived a perfect life which pleased God his Father. There is no Remission of Sin without the shedding of blood. Jesus died on the Cross as the sacrifice for the Sin of the world; appeasing the wrath of God. Have Faith in Jesus Christ who arose from the grave and ascended to Heaven. Your old man will remain, but he will be nailed to the Cross of Christ. When God looks at your portrait, in its frame he will see Jesus Christ in you; the hope of eternal Life. Don’t wait until it’s too late and the only ‘poor trait’ God can see in your frame is the portrait of your Old Man…

Romans 6:6 KJV; Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[ReverendRV]

How can we have a free, Free Will, when we're not free from the Old Man we used to be?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Dorian Gray ~ by ReverendRV * March 18

Ephesians 4:22 KJV; That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Have you ever wondered why a Christian may not seem to behave very much different than you? The Bible says that the Christian should be Conformed into the image of Jesus, but often it appears that the believer is more conformed to the image of the World. The Apostle Paul was very concerned about this, even in his own person. Paul said that when he did the bad things he didn’t want to do, it was remaining Sin within him that did it. As we can see, Paul would go on to give this remaining Sin a proper name; the ‘Old Man’. The reason I decided to write this Gospel Tract is because I have just been diagnosed with Diabetes. The old Man within me has led me to this through Gluttony, but when I confessed this in Church I told them that my identity would not be Brother Miller the Diabetic; the Old Man inside me is the Diabetic. This brought to my Mind an image of what the Old Man must look like; a degenerate, diseased, cowering old man…

In the story called ‘The Picture of Dorian Gray’, we see a similar portrait of the Old Man. The Novel tells of a young man named Dorian Gray, the subject of a painting by artist Basil Hallward. Basil is very impressed by Dorian's beauty and becomes infatuated with him, thinking his beauty is responsible for a new mode in his art. Dorian meets Lord Henry Wotton, a friend of Basil, and becomes enthralled by Lord Henry's world view. Espousing a new Hedonism, Henry suggests the only things worth pursuing in life are beauty and fulfilment of the senses. Realizing that one day his beauty will fade, Dorian expresses a desire to sell his Soul to ensure the portrait Basil painted would age rather than he. Dorian's wish is fulfilled, and when he subsequently pursues a life of Debauchery, the portrait serves as a reminder of the effect each act had upon his Soul. Each Sin displayed as a disfigurement of his form, or through a sign of aging. ~ No wonder the Christian can seem no different than the world; but in saying this we find out the true condition of the World. Have you ever told a Lie? What does your portrait look like? Have you also lived the Life of Hedonism? Perhaps you clean up well but inside you are full of dead mans bones! The bad news is that in your heart, you are the Old Man; there is no New Man within to wrestle against the Old Man. If God judged you, would you be innocent? Or will you be guilty and Hellbound?

Dorian Gray grew to hate the Old Man inside the portrait. He had a good idea when he tried to clean up his act; but it was all in vain; his portrait still continued to age. Dorian stabbed the portrait with a knife; another good idea but he used the wrong weapon. Dorian aged and died in his Sins, and the portrait returned to its youthful appearance. ~ The only instrument which can save us from our Old Man is the nail of a Cross. Jesus is the GodMan who was born of a Virgin and lived a perfect life which pleased God his Father. There is no Remission of Sin without the shedding of blood. Jesus died on the Cross as the sacrifice for the Sin of the world; appeasing the wrath of God. Have Faith in Jesus Christ who arose from the grave and ascended to Heaven. Your old man will remain, but he will be nailed to the Cross of Christ. When God looks at your portrait, in its frame he will see Jesus Christ in you; the hope of eternal Life. Don’t wait until it’s too late and the only ‘poor trait’ God can see in your frame is the portrait of your Old Man…

Romans 6:6 KJV; Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Thank you for this.

I have this fight on a daily with the old man and come to hate it.

This inner conflict is very consuming at times.

God sees me as righteous, but I sure do not see myself that way.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

It is an abstract/rhetorical form of dialog. He is using a mathematical use of words and meanings, to make a point. He is not denying that there is more to it than that, but dealing with the subject at hand. It is almost a form of hyperbole.

Sometimes that kind of speaking is necessary to get across what is actually going on within us, who have one foot in Heaven while the other is running about on this earth.

mathematical use of words

I am not familiar with this terminology, can you clarify?

 

[ReverendRV]

Thank you for this.

I have this fight on a daily with the old man and come to hate it.

This inner conflict is very consuming at times.

God sees me as righteous, but I sure do not see myself that way.

That's the plus side of Unconditional Election; God Chose you before you did Bad, to not Deserve Election...

 

[ElectedbyHim]

That's the plus side of Unconditional Election; God Chose you before you did Bad, and not Deserving Election...

Romans 9:11

Our Lord never stops amazing me.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Thank you for this.

I have this fight on a daily with the old man and come to hate it.

This inner conflict is very consuming at times.

God sees me as righteous, but I sure do not see myself that way.

Nor do I

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How can we have a free, Free Will, when we're not free from the Old Man we used to be?

I think we need to remember

A natural man can do a morally good deed.

Can they chose not to commit adultry? yes

Can they honor their parents? Yes

Can they not covet what their neighbor has? yes

In fact I believe it was paul who accused the jews who had the law. And exposed the fact the gentiles would obey it

What the natural man cannot do is be righteous in a way he can save themselves (they are already guilty)

And they can not produce fruit.. Only A child of God can produce fruit. And he is not saved by his righteousness, But the righteousness of God given or imputed to him

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That's the plus side of Unconditional Election; God Chose you before you did Bad, to not Deserve Election...

Yes, But based on what did God chose us?

 

[ReverendRV]

Nor do I

The reason God sees Christ's Righteousness in Us, is because it's a Legal Righteousness he keeps on File in his Office...

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes, But based on what did God chose us?

I will go out on a Limb and say God Elects out of Pity...

In your blood, Live! ~ by ReverendRV * May 28

Ezekiel 16:4-5 NLT; On the day you were born, no one cared about you. Your umbilical cord was not cut, and you were never washed, rubbed with salt, and wrapped in cloth. No one had the slightest interest in you; no one pitied you or cared for you. On the day you were born, you were unwanted, dumped in a field and left to die.

What a terrible fate! In ancient days it was common place for children to be abandoned straight from birth. Women and children were second class citizens until the emergence of Christianity. Christians had so many opportunities to raise orphans because of this; after all, we want to be like our great God and Father. ~ These Verses describe a time in which God modeled this for us by choosing a people for himself; the Jews. Ezekiel says; “'This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Jerusalem: Your ancestry and birth were in the land of the Canaanites, your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. No one pitied you or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised. And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!'” ~ One day, if God were to pass by you, might he despise you?

Ezekiel calls the parents of the abandoned child an Amorite and a Hittite, even though the Jews come from Abraham and his wife Sarah; who were Chaldeans. But since people are Sinners, God calls them by the name of Sinful nations. Since children want to be like their parents, the world has followed their parents in Sin. Adam and Eve Sinned by eating the fruit from a banned tree, and their first son killed their second son; Sin has abounded in the world since. But you say, “I can see that murder is a Sin but why is something as small as eating fruit a Sin?” Have you ever told a Lie? Have you ever Lusted for another person? They may seem like nothing; like a piece of fruit, but both break the Ten Commandments of God. God himself is standard of Righteousness; and he is Infinite. Even Murder would be small when compared to infinite good. Would you be innocent or guilty? Sinners are judged guilty and sentenced to an eternal Hell as punishment…

What we need is for someone to pass near us and have pity on us. But you ask, “Doesn’t this say that God had pity on the Jews? What about us?” The Bible says everything that was written in the past was written for us too! For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life! Jesus Christ was Sinless and Holy; he died on the Cross by bleeding to death; but arose from the grave on the third day! We’re Saved by Grace through Faith but not by any Works we do. Our Works are like polluted blood we’re born from. Jesus is the Son of God sent into the world as a Sinless sacrifice for all who will believe. Without the shedding of blood there is no Remission of Sin, but the blood of the risen Christ cleanses us from all Sin; trust in him as your Savior and you will be forgiven!

Romans 10:9 NIV; If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I think we need to remember

A natural man can do a morally good deed.

Can they chose not to commit adultry? yes

Can they honor their parents? Yes

Can they not covet what their neighbor has? yes

In fact I believe it was paul who accused the jews who had the law. And exposed the fact the gentiles would obey it

What the natural man cannot do is be righteous in a way he cam save themselves 9they are already guilty)

And they can not produce fruit.. Only A child of God can produce fruit. And he is not saved ny his righteousness, But the righteousness of God given or imputed to him

A natural man can do a morally good deed.

Of course they can, but is motivated by sinful pride and not out of reverence and glory to God.

All good deeds done by the unregenerate are motivated by pride, pride is at the base of all sin I believe.