Some good reasons to reject Arminianism

[civic]

It really doesn't help!

Vaticanus and Sinaiticus should not be respected by anyone! They are absolutely riddled with errors (some outrageous), disagree with each other thousands of times, contain apocryphal books, and are of highly dubious provenance. There is also doubt about their claimed age. Erasmus thought that Vaticanus was probably written some time after 1430, for example.

Regarding the "older means better" mantra: this is an extremely suspect stance. The best manuscripts would have been the most used and copied; they would have worn out, long, long ago. The very fact that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus have survived, in such good condition, for so long (if you accept their claimed ages...) is suspicious.

Given normal manuscript transmission (the best ones would be read and used, worn out, copied, etc.), you would expect the vast majority of extant manuscripts to be largely in agreement with each other and to be trustworthy. This is found to be the case. The "earliest", on the other hand, as I mentioned earlier, are riddled with errors of various kinds and disagree with each other far more than would be expected of trustworthy manuscripts. In fact, Sinaiticus, in particular, shows that a dozen or more different scribes, at different times, have tried to correct it, in numerous places.

Then there is the reason why the majority of manuscripts are more recent: in the 9th and 10th C. A.D., a very large number of Uncials (ancient manuscripts, written in capital letters) were copied to cursives (more recent writing, in small letters). It is these that constitute the majority of extant Greek manuscripts; in other words, they are mostly direct copies of far older Uncial manuscripts that no longer exist.

Here is Mark 16:8...

Mark 16:8 (EMTV) And going out, they fled from the tomb, but trembling and amazement held them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

It ends abruptly, in fear (the opposite from faith). There is no Great Commission. If anyone thinks that this is valid ending to a gospel, then I would not rush to trust his judgment on anything else.

Casting doubt on a passage that has been accepted as genuine, by the vast majority of the body of Christ, since the earliest times, is the devil's job, not ours.

And basing a doctrine on a "debatable" passage is not a foundation which to build a doctrine upon. That is my view and even if it is Scripture it still cannot contradict the many other passages that imply those gifts are no longer in operation. We will have to agree to disagree on this one brother and the good things its not an essential/salvific doctrine worth dividing over imho.

 

[David1701]

And basing a doctrine on a "debatable" passage is not a foundation which to build a doctrine upon. That is my view and even if it is Scripture it still cannot contradict the many other passages that imply those gifts are no longer in operation. We will have to agree to disagree on this one brother and the good things its not an essential/salvific doctrine worth dividing over imho.

Even without Mark 16:9-20 (and it's not a "debatable" passage - the evidence for it is overwhelming), it would still be clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, as the Scriptures I posted proved.

Doctrines to do with salvation are not the only important ones.

 

[civic]

Even without Mark 16:9-20 (and it's not a "debatable" passage - the evidence for it is overwhelming), it would still be clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, as the Scriptures I posted proved.

Doctrines to do with salvation are not the only important ones.

Brother you know it’s not a black and white cut and dry issue within Christendom which is why there are different views. On essentials we are all in agreement/ unity , on non essentials there is liberty and in all things charity. It’s the non essentials where most of the debates and differences stem from within Christianity. Neither your belief or mine would be considered heretical even though some well know teachers/ preachers would say otherwise like MaCArthur who has been very vocal labeling them as false teachings . I use to think that way as well but softened my stance and extend liberty to my brothers and sisters who might have the gift of tongues for example.

 

[David1701]

Brother you know it’s not a black and white cut and dry issue within Christendom which is why there are different views. On essentials we are all in agreement/ unity , on non essentials there is liberty and in all things charity. It’s the non essentials where most of the debates and differences stem from within Christianity. Neither your belief or mine would be considered heretical even though some well know teachers/ preachers would say otherwise like MaCArthur who has been very vocal labeling them as false teachings . I use to think that way as well but softened my stance and extend liberty to my brothers and sisters who might have the gift of tongues for example.

MacArthur is not really against Classical Pentecostalism (although he clearly disagrees on some doctrines); it's more the extreme Charismatic and WoF teachings that he calls heresies (and he's right about that), if I recall correctly.

What would your average cessationist Christian do, if confronted by a demon-possessed man? What would he do if he heard a prophecy, warning about an impending famine? What would he do if he heard a word of knowledge about a sin in his life that God wanted to deal with (the person giving the word having no natural knowledge of it)? What would he do if he heard a tongue and its interpretation, in a meeting? What would he do if he saw a Christian lay hands on an ill person, and that person immediately got better?

One of the first things that happened to me, after God saved me, was that I was praying in someone's home, with a small group of Christians, when God warned me about a false Christian in the church (a Baptist church in Scotland). The others thought that I was imagining it, until, a short while later, it was revealed to be true. A fake infiltrated the church, pretending to be a Christian, so that he could grope young women. We discovered later that the police already knew about him and that he'd tried this in many churches before.

The young people's group, in the church, had given him a new Bible, but he drew swastikas and wrote filthy language on the pages. I prayed for God to bring him to repentance or remove him. Soon afterwards he was reported as having died of a heart attack in his house.

I'm not an extreme Charismatic, nor WoF, nor even Classical Pentecostal; I'm more of an Evangelical who believes (actually KNOWS) that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.

These kinds of things (the various gifts) should be happening on a regular basis amongst God's people. They're an important part of our life.

 

[Marilyn C]

The gift of miracles , signs and wonders ceased with the death of the Apostles. Here was the purpose for them in scripture. Miracles are a rarity in Scripture not a normality. Moses declared the Law, Elijah and Elisha the Prophets. Daniel with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace and also Jonah and Joshua in Jericho. Then we see nothing till Jesus 3year period of ministry with the New Covenant. The purpose of signs, wonders, and miracles was to authenticate the messenger and the message was from God. This was necessary because God's written revelation was yet incomplete. Christ performed many miracles and signs which the Apostle John describes with these words: Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name (John 20:30-31). Notice, the miracles of Jesus gave authenticated His message and claims to His Deity. Miracles, signs and wonders ceased with the Apostles and so did the individual gift of miracles. 2 Corinthians 12:12- The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

I agree the 12 Apostles were to witness of Christ`s resurrection, but the ascended Lord gave apostles and prophets for the equipping and edifying of the B/C till we come to the unity of the faith. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

 

[Manfred]

So, did the believers 1) Come forward? 2) Raise their hands? 3) Come to "the altar?" 4) Say "the sinners prayer?" 5) Fill out a decision card?

6) Speak in a tongue...

I think those people were so overwhelmed by conviction, they couldn't wait and ran to the river to get baptized. I recon the Disciples had a long day of baptizing new believers. A couple of days later they had 5000 more!

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Manfred]

I agree, the church will continue to the end. But as far as those gifts go like tongues for example.
Where is it needed?

I met a guy called Des Sinclair here in South Africa. He is originally from new Zealand, and I heard him preach and share his testimony. It was truly amazing stuff, and all his teaching was spot-on.
He related a story of when he preached in an African country (Senegal I think) and the translator stopped translating as he was preaching against some false "prophets" who were deceiving the church members and stealing from them. In a miff, he asked the translator why he stopped, only to be told that he was speaking the local dialect perfectly. (He spoke in English, the audience heard him in their dialect)

I believe that gift along with others were given during the time of the apostles and for the building and protection of the early church.

I have witnessed healing first hand. It was "unbelievable" I pondered what had happened, and had to conclude that the Lord healed the person I had prayed for, right in-front of my eyes. I still think the new-birth of this person was greater than the healing.

We now have the written word. If you see it differently, I believe you are wrong.

I just don’t see the need for it any longer. Consider discernment. Our discernment increases as we renew our minds with the washing of the word, ect…

When someone speaks to you with a deceiving spirit, are you able to discern in the natural or in the spiritual?

I know you believe different. And that’s okay.

I know of some Calvinist’s who believe in the gifts.
And that’s okay.

Thanks!

Love you Bro!

 

[armylngst]

There is also knowledge that comes from salvation or the moment you are born again. Although there does seem to be people who have gradual conversions and others have instant ones. I was one of the latter, and reading the Bible and other Reformed writings were more like confirmation of the knowledge I received from God at the moment of the new birth. I didn't know everything, of course, and there is still learning, but the main things are covered for me.

Not all embrace Calvinism, though they are saved. I think of Dave Hunt especially in that regard.

It isn't the embracing of Calvinism that means anything, but the understanding of salvation, which I believe is inline with some/most of what Calvin taught. It isn't because Calvin taught it. Labels cause division (as one can see on Calvinism/Arminianism debate sites, not to mention Libertarian Free Will)

 

[armylngst]

Thank you army, for that explanation.

There is no scriptural proof for that view however.

There is, however, actual proof. 1. An experiment was done by Wycliffe Translators I believe, where they went and recorded people speaking in tongues in churches. Of the approximate 3-4% of the time where people spoke a known language, the majority of that was cursing God in a language they did not know. Only about 1-2% was praising God in an unknown language. The rest was babbling. 2. In another case, someone went to a church and spoke in a foreign language that they knew, and someone stood up to interpret, and all he could say was, that isn't what I said. 3. Healing and miracles that are absent in the church today, except in isolated cases where God acts. Even Paul could heal anymore by the end of his ministry. One of those serving the Lord and serving Paul's needs almost died, but Paul said it was by the grace of God, and God having mercy on Paul, that he didn't die. Paul did not/could not heal him.

These particular gifts were used to establish the church. The Jews spoke in tongues, the Gentiles spoke in tongues, and John the Baptist's disciples spoke in tongues. Some believe the Samaritan's MAY have spoke in tongues, but, even in the midst of groups where the author of Acts says these groups did, it is not mentioned of the Samaritans. What did Peter say of the Gentiles speaking in tongues? He basically said that it showed that the Gentiles are a part of the same church as the Jews, in that both the Gentiles and the Jews received the same spirit, in the same way. They did not come planning on baptizing the Gentiles, however, having seen what God had done, Peter asked the Jews, who could refuse these the water that received the spirit the same as they had. The Samaritans entered the same church, as did John the Baptists disciples. As the church was established, these gifts were no longer required to establish it, so the passed away. Other gifts for the buildling up and edification of the church, did not.

Today, many of these signs and wonders groups are trying to one up each other, and show how much holier than thou they are. Look, we speak in tongues and you don't, so you don't have the Holy Spirit. You don't heal. (they don't either.) Paul said he would gladly cease doing any of those things if it would mean he would have more love. (Something lacking in some who are not cessationists. They even lied about what John MacArthur said.) These gifts are no longer needed in the church, however, once again, God's will will be done however He wishes. The difference between that and a gift is that a gift is exercised by the one who has it to use. God does not tell them when and where to use it. It is a gift for them to use. If God acts, it is an act of God, not a gift.

 

[armylngst]

This is unbelief, pure and simple; and, it's this kind of false teaching that harms the faith of some, leading them into the kind of powerless Christianity we see so often nowadays.

Actually it is understanding. Certain gifts, some call apostolic gifts, existed solely for the purpose of establishing the church. These gifts do not edify or build up the church, but instead, today, are used to bash other people by saying they have a kind of powerless Christianity. They don't have the Holy Spirit because they don't have these gifts. Sounds like the edification of the church, right? There is no love there. Since the church has been established, these gifts are no longer necessary. Other gifts are very much needed, and exercised. The difference between God acting and gifts are that gifts are given to believers to exercise apart from God's direct action. A super power, so to speak, provided through and by the Holy Spirit. God acts as He wills, and He can choose to use us, however, that isn't a gift. Someone may speak in a language they do not know resulting in salvation for someone, or a group of people, and then find they cannot replicate it. That is because it wasn't a gift, but the act of God in the moment.

 

[David1701]

Actually it is understanding. Certain gifts, some call apostolic gifts, existed solely for the purpose of establishing the church. These gifts do not edify or build up the church, but instead, today, are used to bash other people by saying they have a kind of powerless Christianity. They don't have the Holy Spirit because they don't have these gifts. Sounds like the edification of the church, right? There is no love there. Since the church has been established, these gifts are no longer necessary. Other gifts are very much needed, and exercised. The difference between God acting and gifts are that gifts are given to believers to exercise apart from God's direct action. A super power, so to speak, provided through and by the Holy Spirit. God acts as He wills, and He can choose to use us, however, that isn't a gift. Someone may speak in a language they do not know resulting in salvation for someone, or a group of people, and then find they cannot replicate it. That is because it wasn't a gift, but the act of God in the moment.

You've clearly read some paperbacks, heard some sermons, or read articles, because you certainly didn't get any of this from the Bible.

 

[armylngst]

You've clearly read some paperbacks, heard some sermons, or read articles, because you certainly didn't get any of this from the Bible.

I see you can't actually deal with the argument, so you must be reflecting on me. If you don't understand what a spiritual gift is, please, ask. We can help. We exercise gifts through the power of the Holy Spirit. They are bestowed upon us contingent on our level of faith. A miracle is where God actually bends/breaks the laws of nature, which He can do because He created it. I'm sorry if you cannot accept that God can act when He wishes, how He wishes, without your input. God is not fettered by anyone, however, He has decided to limit Himself. (He didn't destroy the world in the flood. He didn't kill all the Israelites with the vipers. So many times where He would have/could have destroyed all evil, but He did not. He is the only One holding Himself back.

I understand that the scriptural references I have given are not considered scriptural. I get it. If it stands in your way, just say it isn't scriptural, even if it is found in scripture. The so-called apostolic gifts were given to validate God's message through them and were visible in the early church to establish the church. The Jewish church leaders who came with Peter to visit Cornelius were astonished when the Gentiles spoke in tongues like they had. Peter set the precedent of stating that this means that the Gentiles are a part of the same church, as they approach God through the same spirit, not some other spirit as the Jewish leaders expected. Paul spends part of the book of Ephesians explaining this.

The church has since been established, so these gifts are no longer necessary. As I said, even Paul himself could no longer heal people as though by gift. His friend who was ministering to him would have died, except, as Paul said, that God took mercy on Paul so that he might not sink into misery and despair. If you don't recognize the passages, or perhaps you don't know about the prophecy that says that these gifts will cease and pass away (prophecy, tongues, and healing). The church is established and has been established for centuries. Over a millennium... almost two. However, this does not prevent God from acting how He wants, when He wants. It does stop the mouths of those who say they are better than everyone else because they can babble, and therefore they have the Holy Spirit, while those who don't, don't have the Holy Spirit. That isn't how it works.

 

[David1701]

I see you can't actually deal with the argument, so you must be reflecting on me. If you don't understand what a spiritual gift is, please, ask. We can help. We exercise gifts through the power of the Holy Spirit. They are bestowed upon us contingent on our level of faith. A miracle is where God actually bends/breaks the laws of nature, which He can do because He created it. I'm sorry if you cannot accept that God can act when He wishes, how He wishes, without your input. God is not fettered by anyone, however, He has decided to limit Himself. (He didn't destroy the world in the flood. He didn't kill all the Israelites with the vipers. So many times where He would have/could have destroyed all evil, but He did not. He is the only One holding Himself back.

I understand that the scriptural references I have given are not considered scriptural. I get it. If it stands in your way, just say it isn't scriptural, even if it is found in scripture. The so-called apostolic gifts were given to validate God's message through them and were visible in the early church to establish the church. The church has since been established, so these gifts are no longer necessary. As I said, even Paul himself could no longer heal people as though by gift. His friend who was ministering to him would have died, except, as Paul said, that God took mercy on Paul so that he might not sink into misery and despair. If you don't recognize the passages, or perhaps you don't know about the prophecy that says that these gifts will cease and pass away (prophecy, tongues, and healing). The church is established and has been established for centuries. Over a millennium... almost two.

This is just unbelief and assumptions.

I've seen people healed, by the power of the Holy Spirit, and many other things that you wouldn't believe. Thankfully, there are Christians who understand these parts of the Bible properly. I hope you eventually become one of those.

 

[armylngst]

This is just unbelief and assumptions.

I've seen people healed, by the power of the Holy Spirit, and many other things that you wouldn't believe. Thankfully, there are Christians who understand these parts of the Bible properly. I hope you eventually become one of those.

Once again, if you don't understand what a gift is, please ask. You apparently don't understand the difference between a miracle and a gift. If the gift of healing was still present for Paul, he would have healed his friend. Paul raised someone from the dead, so healing doesn't seem like such a big deal.

Acts 20
"7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted."

II Timothy 4 "
19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus remained at Corinth, but I left Trophimus sick at Miletus. 21 Make every effort to come before winter. Eubulus greets you, also Pudens, Linus, Claudia, and all the brothers and sisters."

Philipians 2
"25 But I thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, who is also your [o]messenger and minister to my need, 26 because he was longing [p]for you all and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick. 27 For indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but also on me, so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 Therefore I have sent him all the more eagerly, so that when you see him again you may rejoice and I may be less concerned about you. 29 Receive him then in the Lord with all joy, and hold people like him in high regard, 30 because he came close to death [q]for the work of Christ, risking his life to compensate [r]for your absence in your service to me."

You will notice that the gifts you wish to see are not listed in Ephesians 4, which came after I Corinthians was written, at a later date:
"11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as [d]pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [e]saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [f]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [g]which belongs to the fullness of Christ."

Does it say that God gave some as healers? Some as translators/interpreters? We have messengers, preachers, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. (These are not the same as the apostles of the New Testament, of which one of the requirements was to have seen Jesus. Paul actually did see Jesus, so he was counted among them.)

 

[SeventhDay]

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Mark 16.

Both Arminians and Calvinists go out and proclaim the gospel.
However,

Arminians believe they have to, with help from God, convince the lost sinner to believe. They have to continue counseling in the gospel in hopes people will make a decision to believe. And if one does, and proves it by coming forth, they get to record the persons name and the date they got saved in their bibles. I even heard some say, “ I got three people saved today!”
Yes, I suppose they got a reason to boast.

The Calvinist has his confidence in God, knowing God will save those who are His. A Calvinist will share the gospel and continue to follow up as well. You won’t hear a Calvinist say, “I got three people saved today!” Because it’s not man, it’s the gospel that is the power unto salvation. We also don’t have them come forth for proof. The proof is they will hunger and thirst for Christ.

I suppose both Arminians and Calvinists are fishers of men.
One casts his net and woos the fish to swim into it. Saying come on, you can do it, give it a try.
The other casts his net knowing many kinds of fish will be dragged in.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

God saves! It is that simple but both Arminians and Calvinist put a slant on it and undermine Jesus atonement and make a mockery of it.
Repent!

 

[SeventhDay]

Overall, I find that Arminianism is just false teaching (Charles Finney), or immature believers who need to grow in their understanding of God. You have to go to college to gain knowledge, you aren't born with it. You have to grow in scripture, and in the Spirit, to understand all that God has given us in His word.

Yes, one has to be taught by the Holy Spirit and denying Jesus atonement in quality or scope is not being taught by the Holy Spirit but some other spirit so be aware!

 

[Ritajanice]

I disagree. Personally, I believe, "though I may not, whenever I see a person I want to share the Lord Jesus with them" I have a burden for the lost. If I am not supposed to share the gospel until someone asks, why do I have this burden?

I share the Lord Jesus with many....I have the Lords joy in my heart....I’m often asked you are so happy...well I have to tell them why....I can’t deny Jesus.....

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Yes, one has to be taught by the Holy Spirit and denying Jesus atonement in quality or scope is not being taught by the Holy Spirit but some other spirit so be aware!

You added words to what he said that you quoted trying to imply he didn't say it. That's really awful.

 

[SeventhDay]

You added words to what he said that you quoted trying to imply he didn't say it. That's really awful.

Please prove it!

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I share the Lord Jesus with many....I have the Lords joy in my heart....I’m often asked you are so happy...well I have to tell them why....I can’t deny Jesus.....

God puts it into people to share the Gospel, not everybody. I want to share what has happened to me with other people but most of the time it's futile and in the process I am mocked. God did not put it on me to share the Gospel, so I'm fine with that.