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Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this.

My comments were "inline" with your comments. I did not quote the OP. I quoted you.
Then you should be willing and able to collaboratively answer the question asked without further delay, digression, or obfuscation.

What is the subject being discussed in this op?


.
 
Then you should be willing and able to collaboratively answer the question asked without further delay, digression, or obfuscation.

What is the subject being discussed in this op?


.

Would you consider not "ordering me around" and implying I'm ignore the OP? Delay isn't digression nor obfuscation....
 
Would you consider not "ordering me around" and implying I'm ignore the OP? Delay isn't digression nor obfuscation....
What is the subject being discussed?
 
What is the subject being discussed?

We have been discussing the man made doctrine of total depravity.

Which seems fitting in response to any claims of "Grace".

I personally believe that is a sign of "total depravity" to claim Grace when someone has none. I believe this is true of the teaching. (as I have said. I don't believe in total depravity 100 percent. Which I believe is a requirement for the word "total".)
 
We have been discussing the man made doctrine of total depravity.
No, we have NOT.

This op does not mention total depravity at all.

The reason we have not been discussing the doctrine of total depravity is because 1) you do not correctly understand the doctrine and have been discussing a straw man, and 2) you do not answer op-relevant inquiries when asked. We will be able to discuss the doctrine of total depravity when you have either demonstrated a correct understanding of the doctrine OR openly express a lack of understanding and avail yourself to learning it correctly. Multiple posters have observed you're working from an incorrect definition, and you've not bothered anywhere to get it correct.

You have a mistaken understanding of total depravity and this op is not about total depravity. YOU are mucking up someone else's thread.
I personally believe that is a sign of "total depravity" ........
Who cares? This op is not about total depravity! So, I will ask you once more,


What is the subject being discussed?


.
 
No, we have NOT.

You are selectively quoting me. If you're going to talk about Grace in the context of your position, then you must.

The reason we have not been discussing the doctrine of total depravity is because 1) you do not correctly understand the doctrine and have been discussing a straw man, and 2) you do not answer op-relevant inquiries when asked. We will be able to discuss the doctrine of total depravity when you have either demonstrated a correct understanding of the doctrine OR openly express a lack of understanding and avail yourself to learning it correctly. Multiple posters have observed you're working from an incorrect definition, and you've not bothered anywhere to get it correct.

You all are assuming your own definitions are true without an appeal to a reliable trustworthy source. You have no reason to complain about such.

You have a mistaken understanding of total depravity and this op is not about total depravity. YOU are mucking up someone else's thread.

If not Grace, what is the opposite? You can't talk about Grace without knowing it's limits. That is why "contrasts" exist. Contrasts exist to establish boundaries.

Who cares? This op is not about total depravity! So, I will ask you once more,


What is the subject being discussed?
[/QUOTE]

I know you want to control all the discussions. No different than any other discussions with you. I'm allergic to such attempts to try and unnecessarily limit responses.




.
 
You are selectively quoting me.
I would ask you to prove it but I have no evidence and no hope the proof wwould ever be forthcomng because it's nearly impossible to get a direct and immediate answer to any question asked of you when asked.
If you're going to talk about Grace in the context of your position, then you must.
No, you mustn't. Total depravity does not have anything to do with the saved people in Ephesians 2:8!
Why would works matter to the total depraved.
Works do not matter to the depraved? Total depravity doesn't apply to the saved, either. You've been off-topic since at least Post 38, and you've refused every opportunity to bring the conversation back to the subject being discussed.

You are a troll.
I know you want to control all the discussions.
Says the guy who hasn't posted an op-relevant word since he showed up in the thread, won't answer the simplest of questions directly when asked.


This op is about Ephesians 2 and the specific, specified matter of grace not meaning works don't matter...... among those already saved. Ephesians was not written to the unsaved. Total depravity does not apply to the unsaved.
Why would works matter to the total depraved. Most people claim special revelation?

Westminster Confession.................................................................
That is your original reply to the op. The relevance of works to the depraved has nothing to do with the those already saved. You haven't been on-topic once and you've refused every effort to get you to discussing this op.


You are a troll, and you're a troll with an incorrect understanding of total depravity, a bad hamartiology, and a complete absence of any willingness to learn any of it correctly.

That makes you a troll. If you do not want to be that guy then stop ignoring what is actually posted and, on the occasion when someone asks you about a doctrine you may not have correctly understood, answer the question asked. Do not answer questions not asked or ask questions without first answering what was asked of you. These are not inappropriate requests. No one is trying to control anything. We want you to do better, not worse. We're being kind, patient, forbearing, hopeful, and more and you cr@p on us all when you do what you've done here.


This op is about Ephesians 2 and the specific, specified matter of grace not meaning works don't matter...... among those already saved. Ephesians was not written to the unsaved. Total depravity does not apply to the unsaved. You are invited to discuss this op. Leave Total Depravity out of it. Leave it out because it has nothing to do with those already saved and the "we," the "us," and the "you" of Ephesians 2 is those all already saved. Paul identifies them at the beginning of his epistle as those, "blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ," those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him. The letter was NOT written to the totally depraved unsaved person and chapter 2 verses 8 and 9 do not apply to them. If you're going to contribute something beneficial to the discussion, then make sure it's relevant and not a red herring (or any other nonsensical fallacious content).
 
My comments were "inline" with your comments.
No, they were not. Post #10 never once mentions total depravity. It never remotely alludes to or implies anything about total depravity. That post explicitly specifies, "The saved person is God's workmanship. He creates the saved person in Christ for preplanned works. It is God who works in us to will and to do His good pleasure."

Saved people are not totally depraved!


The doctrine we now call "Total Depravity" simply states sin has an effect that prevents sinful humans from seeking God specifically for salvation in their own sinful faculties. Nothing more. It has nothing to do with the already saved. Because it has nothng to do with the already saved, it has nothing to do with the already saved Christians in Ephesians 2:8-9. Those people are saved from sin! Those people are saved from the totally soteriologically depraving effects of sin. Those people have been regenerated and indwelt by God to seek Him constantly.

Your comments had absolutely nothing to do with Post 10. So do NOT misrepresent my posts, please.
I did not quote the OP. I quoted you.
Yes, my post was quoted. And then everything specifically stated in that post was ignored. On top of that you refused to correctly answer the one question that might have gotten you back on topic when asked.


That makes you a troll.


And now that the proof is in evidence, I will not bother with you again unless and until you post something fruitfully op-relevant to this discussion AND I exhort everyone to do the same. Do not feed the troll.
 
But since your save you don’t really have to.
Nonsense. First of all, person is saved by grace (according to Scripture.) That means by the very use of "grace", and it is God's grace towards a person, that nothing merits it or earns it. And nothing can earn or merit it. Then it says this comes about through faith, which is also in the same passage declared to be a gift from God, and is also a necessity, considering our enmity with God. The saving aspects of grace and faith are complete the minute they are given.

Now, what does genuine, God-given faith, naturally produce? The very things that Eph 2 says it is given for. Paul is not issuing commands on which salvation stands or falls, in those passages. He is instructing in righteousness. The work of God from the grace that bestows salvation through faith, to our continuing sanctification (growth) in righteousness, to its consummation in the future, is 100% monergistic. We are but obedient servants.
(((The “Your Saved” gospel is another gospel and not the true gospel revealed by Christ and taught by His church))) Matt 28:19
Gal 1:6. 1 Timothy 4:1. 2 Tim 4:3
It is The Gospel as preached by Jesus and the Apostles. Another gospel would be one that said the person and work of Jesus alone (only Jesus) is not sufficient to save anyone. It would be a gospel that said His suffering and death, His resurrection and ascension, was not enough to save anyone. One that said, other things must be added to that.
 
Nonsense. First of all, person is saved by grace (according to Scripture.) That means by the very use of "grace", and it is God's grace towards a person, that nothing merits it or earns it. And nothing can earn or merit it. Then it says this comes about through faith, which is also in the same passage declared to be a gift from God, and is also a necessity, considering our enmity with God. The saving aspects of grace and faith are complete the minute they are given.

Now, what does genuine, God-given faith, naturally produce? The very things that Eph 2 says it is given for. Paul is not issuing commands on which salvation stands or falls, in those passages. He is instructing in righteousness. The work of God from the grace that bestows salvation through faith, to our continuing sanctification (growth) in righteousness, to its consummation in the future, is 100% monergistic. We are but obedient servants.

It is The Gospel as preached by Jesus and the Apostles. Another gospel would be one that said the person and work of Jesus alone (only Jesus) is not sufficient to save anyone. It would be a gospel that said His suffering and death, His resurrection and ascension, was not enough to save anyone. One that said, other things must be added to that.
109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
113. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
114. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins,
without the special privilege of the grace of God.
115. Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral
truths.
116. For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required.
117. In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation,
to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and
moral truths of the natural order.
118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works.
 
Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!
Yes.
(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
If you think that this scripture proves that redemption is not salvation---it does not. What is being contrasted here? Death and life. Not redemption and salvation. It also says that by His death we were reconciled to God. So if we are reconciled with God through His death, what more is needed in order to be reconciled to God? His life, here is referring to His resurrection from the dead. And therefore, in Him we also shall be resurrected---in due time, but not yet. In the meantime, we are fully reconciled to Him, and sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit.
Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church!
Justification is a legal declaration by God. The judged pronounces us justified, not through our works but through the substitutionary work of Christ, taking the penalty for our sins, and the death we deserve, upon Himself. His resurrection from that death, showing His victory over sin and death, His ascension back to the Father, His coronation as King and Priest, having completed His earthly mission. Faith in Him and His work, is what justifies us before God. You add the word baptism. If that were a prerequisite to salvation, then the person and work of Christ would not be sufficient, and it would not be by grace.

We are not required to become a member of anything. That too would annul grace. Through faith and by grace we become a member of His church. Church in the biblical sense, is not a building or a religion, or a denomination. It encompasses all who are in Him through faith, His people.
Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love!
Sanctification is done by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of ou. But your were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may yor whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
What you list, minus your interpretation of the sacraments, are fruits of God's sanctifying work.
 
Yes.

If you think that this scripture proves that redemption is not salvation---it does not. What is being contrasted here? Death and life. Not redemption and salvation. It also says that by His death we were reconciled to God. So if we are reconciled with God through His death, what more is needed in order to be reconciled to God? His life, here is referring to His resurrection from the dead. And therefore, in Him we also shall be resurrected---in due time, but not yet. In the meantime, we are fully reconciled to Him, and sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit.

Justification is a legal declaration by God. The judged pronounces us justified, not through our works but through the substitutionary work of Christ, taking the penalty for our sins, and the death we deserve, upon Himself. His resurrection from that death, showing His victory over sin and death, His ascension back to the Father, His coronation as King and Priest, having completed His earthly mission. Faith in Him and His work, is what justifies us before God. You add the word baptism. If that were a prerequisite to salvation, then the person and work of Christ would not be sufficient, and it would not be by grace.

We are not required to become a member of anything. That too would annul grace. Through faith and by grace we become a member of His church. Church in the biblical sense, is not a building or a religion, or a denomination. It encompasses all who are in Him through faith, His people.

Sanctification is done by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of ou. But your were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may yor whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
What you list, minus your interpretation of the sacraments, are fruits of God's sanctifying work.
Christ institute sacraments for the life (grace) of God may be shared with us

Mk 16:16
Matt 28:19
Jn 3:5
Etc.

Most people who oppose catholic dogma actually believe about 90%


{All that followed edited out in order to not be a temptation to respond to and derail the thread, (feed the troll) as it was completely off topic. It was Catholic dogma and did not even deal with the OP topic}
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A little more

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

(Key verse! Actions speak louder than words: verse 22)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration! Not salvation proper but the beginning of salvation, union with God and the communion of saints by the grace of Jesus Christ the mediator of the new covenant!
Jn 15:4 Matt 24:13


baptismal regeneration!
A new creation in Christ! 2 cor 5:17
Jn 1 JTB prepared the way by baptism!
Jn 2 the waters of purification are OT prefigurement of baptism!
Jn 3:5 born again means baptism
Jn 3:22 they immediately went to the river! Not to preach “accept Christ as personal lord and savior”
But to BAPTIZE!!!
 
Christ institute sacraments for the life (grace) of God may be shared with us
That is not true and it is not a Christian doctrine. He says do this in remembrance of me. It is in effect the New Passover celebration. No longer do we partake of flesh as the Israelites did in the Jewish Passover (Which was a remembrance of their deliverance from slavery in Egypt.)

The Christian Passover is a remembrance of our deliverance from our slavery to sin----what the old was looking forward to and shadowing. The new does not eat the flesh of Christ, nor drink His blood. That would be an abomination. It remembers Him as the true bread that came down from heaven, and His blood shed as the blood of the New Covenant. The sacrifice of His body, and the shedding of His blood.
Most people who oppose catholic dogma actually believe about 90%
I doubt it is 90% once it is carefully read and understood. But so what? What does that prove and what does it have to do with the topic of the OP!!!!!

The rest of your post has nothing to do with the OP. I did not respond to your posts as an invitation to begin Catholic propaganda. Notice how I answered your posts with the Bible and exposition of the Bible. It could stand as verifiable from within the Bible. And I did so without bringing up the Catholic religion, Calvinism, Reformed, or any other theology or denomination. So have all the posters in the thread that I have read so far. You need to learn to do that too. Then you would not derail threads as you are beginning to do here.
 
A little more

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

(Key verse! Actions speak louder than words: verse 22)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration! Not salvation proper but the beginning of salvation, union with God and the communion of saints by the grace of Jesus Christ the mediator of the new covenant!
Jn 15:4 Matt 24:13


baptismal regeneration!
A new creation in Christ! 2 cor 5:17
Jn 1 JTB prepared the way by baptism!
Jn 2 the waters of purification are OT prefigurement of baptism!
Jn 3:5 born again means baptism
Jn 3:22 they immediately went to the river! Not to preach “accept Christ as personal lord and savior”
But to BAPTIZE!!!
The OP is not about baptism.
 
Redemption is part of the process of salvation
Salvation isn't a process, sanctification is. A redeemed person is a saved person. A person being sanctified is growing in knowledge and obedience. "Sanctify them by your word. Your word is truth." It is through the word, and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in us as we learn what is good and right from that word, that is ongoing throughout the believers life in this world. This is what grace saves us to.
 
Why would works matter to the total depraved. Most people claim special revelation?

Westminster Confession....

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

John Gill wrote of 1 Cor 5:5


To deliver such an one unto Satan,.... This, as before observed, is to be read in connection with 1Co_5:3 and is what the apostle there determined to do with this incestuous person; namely, to deliver him unto Satan; by which is meant, not the act of excommunication, or the removing of him from the communion of the church, which is an act of the whole church, and not of any single person; whereas this was what the church had nothing to do with; it was not what they were to do, or ought to do, but what the apostle had resolved to do; and which was an act of his own, and peculiar to him as an apostle, see 1Ti_1:20. Nor is this a form of excommunication; nor was this phrase ever used in excommunicating persons by the primitive churches; nor ought it ever to be used; it is what no man, or set of men, have power to do now, since the ceasing of the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, which the apostles were endowed with; who, as they had a power over Satan to dispossess him from the bodies of men, so to deliver up the bodies of men into his hands, as the apostle did this man's:
for the destruction of the flesh; that is, that his body might be shook, buffeted, afflicted, and tortured in a terrible manner; that by this means he might be brought to a sense of his sin, to repentance for it, and make an humble acknowledgment of it:
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus; that he might be renewed in the spirit of his mind, be restored by repentance, and his soul be saved in the day of Christ; either at death, when soul and body would be separated, or at the day of the resurrection, when both should be reunited; for the flesh here means, not the corruption of nature, in opposition to the spirit, as a principle of grace, but the body, in distinction from the soul: nor was the soul of this man, only his body, delivered for a time unto Satan; the end of which was, that his soul might be saved, which could never be done by delivering it up to Satan: and very wrongfully is this applied to excommunication; when it is no part of excommunication, nor the end of it, to deliver souls to Satan, but rather to deliver them from him. The phrase seems to be Jewish, and to express that extraordinary power the apostles had in those days, as well in giving up the bodies to Satan, for a temporal chastisement, as in delivering them from him. The Jews say, that Solomon had such a power; of whom they tell the following story (e):
"one day he saw the angel of death grieving; he said to him, why grievest thou? he replied, these two Cushites have desired of me to sit here, "he delivered them to the devil"; the gloss is, these seek of me to ascend, for their time to die was come; but he could not take away their souls, because it was decreed concerning them, that they should not die but in the gate of Luz, מסרינהו שלמה לשעירים "Solomon delivered them to the devils", for he was king over them, as it is written, 1Ch_29:12 for he reigned over them, that are above, and them that are below.''
The phrase is much the same as here, and the power which they, without any foundation, ascribe to Solomon, the apostles had: this is their rod which they used, sometimes in striking persons dead, sometimes by inflicting diseases on them themselves; and at other times by delivering them up into the hands of Satan to be afflicted and terrified by him, which is the case here. And it may be observed, that the giving up of Job into the hands of Satan, by the Lord, is expressed in the Septuagint version by the same word as here; for where it is said, Job_2:6 "behold, he is in thine hand"; that version renders it, "behold, παραδιδωμισοι αυτον, I deliver him to thee", that is, to Satan; and which was done, that his body might be smote with sore boils by him, as it was; only his life was to be preserved, that he was not suffered to touch.
What does any of this have to do with the subject being discussed?
 
Monergism only to point then somebody’s got to do something!

God can give Noah the free gift of knowledge that He is going to destroy everything by flood but at some point Noah and his boys better start cutting down Timbers and start building a boat!

And we are told to work out our own salvation
 
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