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Salvation and sanctification is now complete in Christ: Consecration then follows

@Ghada,

I meant what I said. I'm not interested in further exchange with you because you're not attending to what I posted, the questions asked haven't been answered and nothing has changed despite multiple requests. The opportunity to discuss this op with me availed itself and you refused to do so. Post your views without quoting my posts, please. Don't give the false appearance a conversation is happening when it is not.
 
Scripture speaks of salvation in three tenses, the past tense of an already accomplished task, the present tense of an ongoing process, and the future tense of something completed when we are raised incorruptible and immortal. That's not an opinion.
That's an observation leaving out an all-important Bible tense: the perfect tense of an accomplished task remaining the same.

Eph 6:13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

As with standing in Christ Jesus, so is salvation, sanctification, and justification of Jesus Christ, that is begun perfectly complete with complete repentance for His faith's sake, and still standing complete by doing His good will at all times.

The righteous God's command is complete repentance, for the sure promise of complete sanctification from all sins of the world. Sinful man's call of incomplete repentance, is for the lame promise of incomplete sanctification from some sins of the world.

Complete repentance for complete sanctification. Incomplete repentance for incomplete sanctification: two different gospel calls to different repentance and sanctification.

One complete and sure, the other incomplete and lame...One is complete unconditional surrender to Jesus Christ, and the other is incomplete conditional surrender in the name of Christ.



Likewise, sanctification is also spoken of in scripture as something both accomplished and something ongoing, something that is both monergistic and synergistic.
Man's progressive sanctification by man's scientific changing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, into another kind of lame promise to be sort of saved and sanctified from some sins of the world...

2 Tim
{2:15} Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. {2:16} But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


The contexts of the various verses elaborate and illuminate which is which,
Rom 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

The word consecration is nt the same as sanctification and neither is it the same as justification.
Consecration is the same with sanctification and justification, when it is whole repentance and consecration to the righteousness and true holiness of God.

Progressive consecration to the ministry of Christ, is built upon the foundation of Christ's complete sanctification and justification.




We ARE saved BUT God continues to work in us to clean us up,
God does not work to clean up lust and sin here a little, there a little.

That's sinful man's religious work, that's always working to lust and sin a little less than before.

And in the grave it's always too little too late for God.

Ezek
{18:31} Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? {18:32} For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves,] and live ye.

Jerem 3:10
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.





"consecrate," and make us holy all the way up until that last moment when we draw or last breath and then see Him face to face.
We only arrive holy at the ending, only by beginning holy with Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
1 Peter
{1:14} As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;


Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Hebrews
{13:8} Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

However, none us will arrive pure and perfect, apart from Christ.
True. Us, being them not repenting of all their sins and trespasses, but only in part, and so still apart from Christ.

However, none us will arrive pure and perfect, apart from Christ.
And, of course no one can arrive pure and perfect apart from Christ.

Only in Christ Jesus can anyone arrive pure and perfect of heart and life.

1 Thess
{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it.


And here of course is an end to any debate between the wholly repentance and sanctification of Christ's pure religion, and the unwholly repentance and sanctification of sinful religion naming Christ...


If you lived by what you just posted then Post 18 would say, "Yes, you are correct, Josh, sanctification and justification are not identical, they are not the same, but I believe they occur at the same time,"
If anyone reads what I post, they would say, "No, you are not correct, Josh, sanctification and justification are identical, they are the same, they occur at the same time and complete,"


and the fact in evidence so far is that has not happened. It is a simple mistake, and because it is a simple mistake it is also one easily and readily corrected.
If anyone reads what I say, and not what they want me to say.


So do so now.
"No, you are not correct, Josh, sanctification and justification are identical, they are the same, they occur at the same time and complete,"



Sanctification and justification are not identical. To be sanctified means to be purified or made pure, and to be justified means to have legal standing in order to plead one's case. The two are NOT the same. To be consecrated means to be made sacred. ALL THREE are aspects of holiness. To be made holy simply means to be made separate or separated for sacred purpose.

Is this the same person that claims to abhor ad nauseum.? I trow so...


"Say it!!!" (Sam Kinison, Back to School...)
 
Thanks for sharing Ghada,​
Thank you.


Which is God justifying the ungodly through Faith Alone​
Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It's best to stick with the exact words the apostles write, in order not to teach against what they write.



apart from any works​
Once again, apart from any works is having faith with no works, which is dead.

including the Law.​
True. This is Scripture. No works of the law, nor of boasting, nor of our own righteousness.
This means that God doesn't save us form the Law; the Law is good and holy.​
Exactly. The law is not the enemy, but transgression of the law is enmity with God.

We're saved from sinning against the law.

What He saves us from the curse of the Law, meaning condemnation, death and punishment due to sin.​
Exactly again. Since we're not transgressing the law, then we're not guilty of transgressing the law.

Being saved from sining, is being saved from the death by sinning.

Also Paul in Romans 7 where Paul calls the Law good.​
Exactly again. The law of God is good. Transgressing the law of God is evil.


Now knowing that we are justified before a Holy God who demands perfect obedience, holiness, that can only be found in Christ​
Exactly. The only way to obey God with a perfect heart is through Christ Jesus.

and be imputed/credited to the ungodly through Faith Alone.​
Once again, faith alone is dead. The only righteousness God imputes is by the faith of Jesus, that keeps the law and commandments of God.

Because Christ has fulfilled the Law demands for perfect holiness, he has sanctified himself for us.John 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.​
True again. He sanctified Himself to the Father for our sake, and so we likewise sanctify ourselves to the Father for His sake.




Now, that we are free from the curse of the Law. We hear, obey and follow Christ. Here let's look at what Paul says in Romans 6:​

Exactly, now that we are free from the curse of the law by transgression, we are free to be blessed in doing the righteousness of the law.
Dead to Sin, Alive to God​


So, now being baptist into the death of Christ we are new creatures able to walk in holiness
Exactly. We are whole new creatures of righteousness in Christ Jesus by repentance from old sins for His sake.

due to what Christ has done for us
True again and again. Because He has paid the price for our old repented sinning, we can be forgiven and set free from old guilt by sinning.

So long as the past sinning is condemned, then there is no freedom of conscience to do good today.




; this is the crux of the believer, not trusting in what you do here after but in Christ has already done for us.
True again. Even now doing His righteousness and no more our own, we still have nothing to brag about. Only by His grace and faith do we always now please the Father as the Son did.

So, go out perform good works and do not grow weary if it takes a while,
True. Leave the past sinning behind, and only do His good. If we faint not to return to old sins, then the inheritance of resurrection unto life will be our reward, by His righteous judgment of good works done through His own Son.

So, help your neighbor, show them love and compassion as our Father is heaven has shown us.
True. Doing good is not hard. Transgressing God's law is hard.

Don't judge or be critical, be patient.

Once again, we should always use God's words to teach His words. That way we don't appear to sound like the evil world of 'nonjudgmentalism'.
By Grace Alone in Christ Alone through Faith Alone!
Once again, let's use Bible words alone for Bible teaching.

Trusting and believing and seeing Jesus Christ alone is Bible.

Trusting in one's own grace and faith alone, is religion-speak for being saved and justified, while doing ungodly transgression of God's good law and word...
 
Thank you.
Your welcome.
Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Ghada, we must not pit James against Paul, right? But I am intrigued to know how people reconcile James with Paul here.

Romans 4: “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:​


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”​

So, what is Paul saying here, Ghada? I'll let you have at it, first. Then I'll will share with you. If you don't mind. Thanks in advance.
 
Ghada, we must not pit James against Paul, right?
We're speaking of Christ's judgment that faith without/apart from works is dead, being alone. And that no man can be saved by Christ with such dead faith alone:

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James
{2:19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James
{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Christ says it twice so that the answer is obvious: No, dead faith alone cannot save any man.

If anyone wants to keep preaching their own faith alone, after reading James 2, then that's their choice, but I don't recieve it. I only preach the faith of Jesus from the Bible, as the saving and justifiying faith of God.

Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rev
{14:12} Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rom 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


We see the faith of Jesus in Scripture, is the only faith toward God that justifies us, keeps His commandment, and does His righteousness.

John
{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


It's not possible to have the faith of Jesus and not doing the good will of God. Therefore, James 2 says having faith alone without doing Jesus' good works, is dead to God.

1 John 3:17
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


Christ says the same thing about not having the love of God, when not doing the good will of God. There is neither faith toward God, nor love of God in them that have their own faith alone, that is without the good works of God.

But I am intrigued to know how people reconcile James with Paul here.
We see above how there is no reconciliation necessary when teaching the faith of Jesus. Confusion is only when trying to teach one's own dead faith alone eslewhere in the Bible.

I am intrigued to know why people would do so, rather than just acknowledge Christ judges man's own faith alone to be dead toward God.

It's no uncommmon in the world for some readers of the Bible to not believe all the words of the Bible. But not all of them then try to change the Book, in order to teach their own words as though from the Bible.

2 Peter
{1:20} Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. {1:21} For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
 
Romans 4: “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:​
Rom 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4 is speaking of inputed righteousness by faith without works, not of being justified by faith alone without works, which would oppose James 2.

Only those not believing James 2, insert justification by their own faith alone into Romans 4, where it is not found. Which would make Christ a liar in either James 2 or Romans 4.



7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”​

So, what is Paul saying here, Ghada? I'll let you have at it, first. Then I'll will share with you. If you don't mind. Thanks in advance.
The error is teaching imputed righteousness as justification with Christ. The effort to teach it in Romans 4, is by unbelief in James 2.

Both errors are taught by anyone seeking to be justified with Christ Jesus by their own faith alone, without doing the good works of Christ.

They seek to be justified with the righteous Lord and God without doing His righteous will, which is unrighteous toward God.

Jesus Christ says that is impossible in two ways:

1 John
{3:9} Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {3:10} In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,


Those not doing God's righteousness are not of God, but of the devil.

John
{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


Those having His faith, are always doing His righteous and good will to please Him.

And so, we see anyone having his own faith alone without doing the good pleasure of God, does not have the faith of Jesus toward God. And without doing His righteousness, no one is of God.

We also see that the Father leaves anyone alone, that is not doing His righteousness to please Him. And so, both the Father and the Son leave alone anyone, that by their own faith alone are not doing His righteous will.

Therefore, having one's own faith alone does not please God, and is dead to God.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him;

Once again, Scripture does not say, without faith alone, it is impossible to please God, nor does faith alone please God.

The only place in the Bible, that Christ speaks of faith alone, is to condemn it as not His own, and is dead toward God and His Father.

By inserting faith alone into any Scripture of God, whether Romans 4 or Heb 11, it makes Christ a liar that God the Father is pleased by dead faith alone, and justifies anyone not doing His good and righteous will.

Rather we can say by Scripture of God, Without the faith of Jesus that does the good will of God, it is impossible to please God. God is not pleased by anyone's faith alone, because He is not pleased by anyone not doing His good will.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
 
We're speaking of Christ's judgment that faith without/apart from works is dead, being alone. And that no man can be saved by Christ with such dead faith alone:

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James
{2:19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James
{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Christ says it twice so that the answer is obvious: No, dead faith alone cannot save any man.

If anyone wants to keep preaching their own faith alone, after reading James 2, then that's their choice, but I don't recieve it. I only preach the faith of Jesus from the Bible, as the saving and justifiying faith of God.
So, that I understand you correctly you are suggesting that a sinner is justified by their works before a Holy God? Second, what works did the thief on the Cross next to Jesus perform to be justified? Please what works does a sinner need to do to be justified before a Holy God?

For the record here I am not disagreeing with what James is saying here. I just don't pit them against each other. I will share this with you in my next post.
Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
How does this Scripture help your position? Because this is quite opposite of what you are suggesting. If no flesh will be justified by the works of the Law? It's Faith in Christ Alone that justifies the ungodly. And not by the works of the law; meaning any human activity or effort. Because if it is through works then a debt is owed, it is not given as a gift, right? Please take your time and read Paul in Romans 4 again. And see how he juxaposition works vs gift there; one who works vs one who does not. What does Paul mean by that?​
Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rev
{14:12} Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rom 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


We see the faith of Jesus in Scripture, is the only faith toward God that justifies us, keeps His commandment, and does His righteousness.

John
{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


It's not possible to have the faith of Jesus and not doing the good will of God. Therefore, James 2 says having faith alone without doing Jesus' good works, is dead to God.

1 John 3:17
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


Christ says the same thing about not having the love of God, when not doing the good will of God. There is neither faith toward God, nor love of God in them that have their own faith alone, that is without the good works of God.


We see above how there is no reconciliation necessary when teaching the faith of Jesus. Confusion is only when trying to teach one's own dead faith alone eslewhere in the Bible.
When did I ever suggest dead faith? If you are accusing of this, then you might as well accuse Paul too, right? We must understand both Paul and James that they do not contradict each other, that's all I am saying. You have a very hard task in front of you.

I am intrigued to know why people would do so, rather than just acknowledge Christ judges man's own faith alone to be dead toward God.

It's no uncommmon in the world for some readers of the Bible to not believe all the words of the Bible. But not all of them then try to change the Book, in order to teach their own words as though from the Bible.

2 Peter
{1:20} Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. {1:21} For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
WoW, now you are accusing of changing God's word? I would rather have a biblical discussion without the false accusations and judgement. Instead of falsely accusing me, show me where I'd errored instead of judging for something I have not committed. Please I sincerely hope you answer my inquiries and do not avoid them, because if its the truth seek then let's seek it.
 
We're speaking of Christ's judgment that faith without/apart from works is dead, being alone......
No, we're not speaking of that. James was writing to already-regenerate believers about already-regenerate believers. James was not writing about how a sinfully dead, unregenerate, non-believer becomes a believer and thereby saved from sin. This conflation of the two categories has always been a foundational error to be avoided. Failing to correctly discriminate between the already saved and not-saved, the failure to identify the specified audience... these are profound error in exegesis, too.

James is speaking about the faith of the alreayd saved and the necessity to practice what one preaches: act like a believer!


.
 
Rom 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4 is speaking of inputed righteousness by faith without works, not of being justified by faith alone without works, which would oppose James 2.
Huh? You do not see your own contradiction here? Receiving the imputed righteousness of through Faith Alone is what justifies the Godly. For what works could justifies the ungodly? There is nothing one can add or substract from the Active/Passive Obedience of Christ himself. But let's look at Scripture:

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works

Without adding presuppositions or conjecture here, what is Paul saying to us? We are either justified by works or by Faith. You claim something opposing Paul here. But let's slow down a bit. We must ask ourselves, 'Is this person who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, justified before God?' Well, let's start with his faith is counted as righteousness. What does this mean, exactly? It's not the 'Faith' of the ungodly that justifies, but rather it receives only; namely Christ Jesus and his righteousness, which is imputed or credited to this sinner who believes in him who 'Justifies the ungodly'. But I notice even more here. Does God justify the ungodly or the one who works (Righteous Man) here? See, you must not only just read Scripture, but study it and ask questions to understand it. Leave your presuppositions and conjecture at the door, as I did, many years ago, if you seek the truth.

What Paul is preaching here, is the marvel good news for the ungodly; announcement of what God did in his Son. The Law says do, then Gospel says done. Now just believe and trust in him who justifies the ungodly. In other words, it's a Free Gift, no strings attached. The Freer it is the better it is.

I'll leave you with this and address the rest of your post when I get back; running errands.

From one of my favorite theologians J. Gresham Machen.

Liberalism is always in the imperative mood (Law/Works); whereas Christianity is always in the triumphant indicative (Promise/Free Gift). Liberalism always appeals to the human will; Christianity announces first, a Gracious Act of God. What we need is not exhortation, but a Gospel; not directions or self-help for saving myself; but knowledge of the facts on how God has saved the ungodly. Have you any good news? I know your exhortations (Commands/Law) will not save me, but if anything has been done to save me, will you not tell me the facts?

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone through Faith Alone!​
 
WoW, now you are accusing of changing God's word? I would rather have a biblical discussion without the false accusations and judgement. Instead of falsely accusing me, show me where I'd errored instead of judging for something I have not committed.
You are right. I apologize for the appearance of accusing you personally. I always try to keep arguments about the doctrine, not about the people.

It's only Christ in Scripture that condemns the teacher for the teaching. And at times calls them out by name.

I'll try to be clearer: Preaching justification by faith alone without works in Rom 4, is changing the words of Christ in Rom 4. It is either by disagreeing with James 2, or is seeking to change James 2 from condemning any justification by faith alone without works.

James
{2:19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James
{2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


To rightly preach justificaton by faith only without works in Rom 4, it must also be shown that James 2 is preaching justification by faith alone, and not by works...

Hint: James 2 is specifically speaking of justification pertaining to faith and works. Rom 4 is only speaking of imputed righteousness pertaining to faith and works.




Please I sincerely hope you answer my inquiries and do not avoid them, because if its the truth seek then let's seek it.
Likewise. Once again, I apologize for not making sure I am not against a person, when against a teaching.
 
So, that I understand you correctly you are suggesting that a sinner is justified by their works before a Holy God?
Where do I ever say any sinner is justified by the Holy God? Whether by faith alone or by works?

The Holy God justifying the ungodly, is not justifying them being ungodly.

Only the righteous doing His righteousness, are justified with the righteous God,

1 John
{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Second, what works did the thief on the Cross next to Jesus perform to be justified?

Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Matth 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Words are counted as good or evil works judged by God, and confession of the righteous faith of Jesus and His righteousness, is a work justified by God: The thief rightly did so, and if from the heart, then the Lord knows...

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Not only words, but also thoughts and intents of the heart are judged by the Holy Spirit, as being committed works of good or evil.

Remember, the Bible reveals what the natural man does not see nor believe: that the works of man created in the image of God, begin in the heart. God sees and judges the works of the heart, while natural man only acknowledges the works of the body.



Please what works does a sinner need to do to be justified before a Holy God?
As argued above, no sinner can be justified before the Holy God, but only the godly doing His righteousness.

The only thing sinners need and can do to become justified with the Holy God, is to obey His commandment and repent of all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake.

Ezek
{18:31} Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? {18:32} For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves,] and live ye.

Acts
{17:30} And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Heb
{6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


Repentance from dead works is not doing a work, but is not doing dead works.

Neither can any man boast with God for ceasing to be His enemy by dead works.





For the record here I am not disagreeing with what James is saying here. I just don't pit them against each other.
Neither do I. I've been establishing the truth of James 2, that man is justified by works, and not by faith only, and therefore rejecting any teaching of any man being justified by faith alone, and not by any works at all.

I say the only pitting of Christ against Himself, is done by diagreeing with James 2, and inserting justification by faith alone without works into Rom 4.






How does this Scripture help your position? Because this is quite opposite of what you are suggesting. If no flesh will be justified by the works of the Law?​
I never brought in Romans 4, when preaching James 2. Nor do I bring in works of the law, when preaching doing God's righteousness.



It's Faith in Christ Alone that justifies the ungodly.​
I know I've already agreed with this, and showed it's not the same as preaching one's own faith alone, for the ungodly to be justified without living godly.

By this, and by asking questions about things I've never said, I would ask you to try and read all my responses, and only challenge what I say.

I try to do the same for you. Thanks.

And not by the works of the law; meaning any human activity or effort.​
This is a new one. Thanks. It's something I've never heard from others, much less read in Scripture.

Was not Jesus justified by doing all the works of the law? And so, not seeking to be justified by the works of the law, does not mean we do not the law in works:

Rom 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Jas 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


meaning any human activity or effort.​
The problem with this, is that only babes have no works, whether good or evil.

Rom 9:10
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)




Because if it is through works then a debt is owed, it is not given as a gift, right?​
True. The works of the law, such as circumcison of the flesh, does not alone justify any man with Jesus Christ.

Christ in Rom 4 condemns works alone without faith, and in James 2 condemns faith alone without works.


When did I ever suggest dead faith?
Any teaching of justification by faith alone, is teaching justification by dead faith.

James
{2:19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Unless it can shown that James 2 is teaching any faith alone without works, is not dead.

Or, that there is a right teaching from the Bible, that all faith without works, is not dead?




If you are accusing of this, then you might as well accuse Paul too, right?
Of course not, since Christ's apostle never says anyone is justified by having faith alone. Not in Rom 4, nor anywhere else.

Where does Christ in Scripture ever speak of the words 'justified', 'faith', and 'alone' together, except to condemn it in James 2?
 
Huh? You do not see your own contradiction here? Receiving the imputed righteousness of through Faith Alone is what justifies the Godly.
You mean the ungodly?

I am looking forward to responding to this, but I have to go for now.

I believe we may be on the verge of at least a meeting of minds, if not in agreement.

For now, I offer again personal advice on teaching Scripture: Try not to insert works in Scripture that are not there, but only where they are written.

What if faith without works in Rom 4 is not the same as faith without works, being alone, in James 2? Afterall, one is commended by Christ, and the other is condemned by Christ...
 
You are right. I apologize for the appearance of accusing you personally. I always try to keep arguments about the doctrine, not about the people.
Thank you, apology accepted.
It's only Christ in Scripture that condemns the teacher for the teaching. And at times calls them out by name.

I'll try to be clearer: Preaching justification by faith alone without works in Rom 4, is changing the words of Christ in Rom 4. It is either by disagreeing with James 2, or is seeking to change James 2 from condemning any justification by faith alone without works.

James
{2:19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James
{2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


To rightly preach justificaton by faith only without works in Rom 4, it must also be shown that James 2 is preaching justification by faith alone, and not by works...

Hint: James 2 is specifically speaking of justification pertaining to faith and works. Rom 4 is only speaking of imputed righteousness pertaining to faith and works.

Likewise. Once again, I apologize for not making sure I am not against a person, when against a teaching.
No problem, but we can share what we believe and why we believe it. We do not need to use ad hominem approach to discussions. We should be able to have conversations or debates that target the topics with care and being kind hearted. I really do appreciate you apologizing to me. If I offend you please, by all means let me know.

Now, let's get to the discussion. Why does a person need to be justified through works or faith before God? Because at the end of time we all will be judge by our works; deeds, good if that were possible, and by our sins; basically works of good or bad nature, in God's courtroom. But the problem for sinners in this scenario is that all are already condemned in Adam under the Law; convicted felons; Law breakers; on death row waiting execution. So, how on earth can a convicted guilty sinner be justified by works before a Holy God?

Only a righteous man can stand and be declared righteous in God's court. A man without a single blemish of sin and fulfillment of all that the Law demands of him or her. But this is not an option anymore because of original sin of our first parents in the Garden. Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind and are exiled from the Garden Temple which is also sealed from re-entry. We are alienated from God and have become his enemies. We walk this cursed world suffering the consequences of the Fall. The curse is upon everyone, which brings condemnation, death and punishment for it. The verdict is in we are all guilty, charged and convicted. But how on earth can a ungodly person perform good works that do not measure up to God's Holy standard of Holiness? God will not lower his standard of perfection of holiness. Jesus commands us to be holy as your Father in heaven is Holy. What? How? If this doesn't shake you to your core then you haven't understood what condition sinners are in before a Holy God.

This is why Paul says in Galatians 2:16 that no flesh will be justified through the Law. Why? Because it is impossible for a guilty party before a Judge to be found righteous or to stand and be declared righteous by the Judge. So, how can Paul say that to the One who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, be counted righteous by Faith? Well, Ghada, this is the marvelous part, God gives to us freely and announces to us through the proclamation of the Gospel that Christ took our place and fulfilled the Law demands in the flesh so that we will be imputed or credited with his righteousness/holiness as if it's ours personally.

Justification is an act or state wherein God legally declares a believer as righteous. It is not God's recognition of our progressive sanctification but rather his definitive declaration of what is true of us. Christ actual, inherent, condignly meritorious righteousness is credited (imputed) to us and received through faith alone. The Gospel message is that we are justified and saved not by anything done by us or in us but by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone and that Faith is an outward-looking knowledge, assent, and confidence in Christ and his finished work.

So, by this imputed righteousness that is received through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law. A sinner is declared righteous before God in his courtroom. Jesus as he stand as our advocate before God. He provides everything we need to be declared outwardly, righteous before God. This is meant by Paul in Romans, to the One who does not work but believes in him who justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is counted as righteous because of Christ which is received through Faith Alone apart from works. Basically it's a Free gift of righteousness that clothes the ungodly in the courtroom, and God counts him righteous.
Romans 5:17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Sorry about this long post, but I wanted to make it clear as possible. So, see, Ghada, no works can justify the ungodly here in God's courtroom. This is why Paul in Romans 4 make the comparison between one who works and one who doesn't work. Understand this and you will understand how Gracious our Father in heaven really is; Amazing Grace!

I will talk about James in the next post. And share with you on how they do not contradict each other but are in harmony.
 
James was writing to already-regenerate believers about already-regenerate believers.
James was warning the hearers only, not to have the faith of our Lord while sinning against men in two ways: having respect of persons against some, and not doing good for others.

Context.

James was not writing about how a sinfully dead, unregenerate, non-believer becomes a believer and thereby saved from sin.
No. He is not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to repent to new hearers, but to old ones not repented. The same as Paul in Heb 5/6 to unrepented old hearers.

James 2 warns sinning hearers are not justified by their hearing alone. Heb 5/6 warns them of becoming all thorns and briars.




This conflation of the two categories has always been a foundational error to be avoided.
Correct. The gospel of Jesus Christ is whole repentance unto salvation. Another gospel is of salvation unto unwhole repentance.

Their sanctifications are therefore also foundationally different by holy or unholy repentance unto holy or unholy living.

1 Thess
{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.




Failing to correctly discriminate between the already saved and not-saved,
Which is only by overlooking works to judge faith by words alone.



the failure to identify the specified audience...
True. The command to repent of sinning is to men everywhere. The command to repent of sinning in the faith, is specific to sinning hearers only.

these are profound error in exegesis, too.
Which sounds like harmatiologic errors. (Or whatever that blood science is called.)

But since they both evidently lead to getting God's words backwords, then I shun both.

Such as flipping repentance unto salvation backwards to salvation unto repentance.

2 Timothy
{6:20} O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: {6:21} Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.


James is speaking about the faith of the alreayd saved and the necessity to practice what one preaches:
Necessity? For the soul's sake? If not for the soul's sake, then only for appearances' sake.

And, sinners practicing what sinners preach is the problem.

2 Tim
{2:15} Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. {2:16} But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.



act like a believer!


.
Isn't acting for actors? And so here we are. The actors' guide for salvation unto more sinning.

The act like it gospel must have it's very own book of Acts, where people are acting like believers.

Matth 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned...for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


God commands be ye holy, and actors exhort to act like it.

"Since we're not going to be holy saints in all our manners, then let's at least act like it!"

And once again, sinful believers are practicing what they preach by being sinful believers. They're not just acting like it, they're doing it.

The command is be ye sinners, more or less, and they are keeping it. They are obeying their gospel to be sinners saved by grace.

The only hypocrisy is calling it gospel of Jesus Christ, who commands be ye holy and sin not by grace.
 
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I will talk about James in the next post. And share with you on how they do not contradict each other but are in harmony.
Thanks. Since this is where we started, then I'll wait to see it before moving on to the other things you've brought up in Rom 4.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James
{2:19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James
{2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Show in James 2 how faith without works, being alone, is not dead. And how a man is not justified by works, but by faith only.
 
Thanks. Since this is where we started, then I'll wait to see it before moving on to the other things you've brought up in Rom 4.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James
{2:19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James
{2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Show in James 2 how faith without works, being alone, is not dead. And how a man is not justified by works, but by faith only.
Paul in Romans 4 is speaking about how a sinner is justified before God. James 2 is speaking to a different audience. He is speaking to believers. Paul in Romans is speaking against Legalism; that the works of the Law can't justify sinners/ungodly. This is impossible for sinners to find salvation, refuge, life in the Law, right? Because the Law is the ministration of death for sinners, it brings only condemnation, death, punishment and alienation from God. So, how can a person be justified before God through works. Because if this were the case then Christ came and died for nothing. Sinners are only redeemed by Grace Alone. This is the only hope, refuge, life for a sinner. Thus, Paul makes this point clear in Romans.

Now, James he is speaking to believers who think that the Law is irrelevant and not for believers. This is called Antinomianism or Anti-Law. Fun fact Martin Luther the great Reformer was the first person to coin this term. Interesting huh? That a advocate for Justification by Faith Alone apart from works would be the one to coin to term. It is because people do not comprehend what Justification by Faith Alone teaches, but people rather assume negativity about it rather than try to understand it. It's the Free Gift Paul is talking about in Romans 4; 5. This Free Gift is not earned but given freely without any strings attached. The moment anything is attached to it, it isn't Free anymore but commands or exhortations are now, on how to save yourself; basically it's Legalism, which turns the Gospel into Law.

And James is saying you have Faith (being justified in Christ), so now show the fruits of it. But remember these fruits are not the cause but the result of being already justified in Christ through Faith Alone. Therefore, show the world or people who see them that you have Faith and are justified before them (people who witness it). And especially help your fellow brothers and sisters in the lord, not by word of mouth but by deeds; but remember we are never justified by works in front of God.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

But why not in front of God? Because our good works do not measure up to the holiness of God; they're imperfect and tainted with sin, but acceptable because we are in Christ. Christ has already fulfilled the works of the Law for us, and it's only by his works that we are counted righteous.

1 Cor. 1: 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

The only place anyone can boast is in the Lord Alone! Works brings boasting, arrogance, pride, and a debt owed.

Paul agrees with James that believers must live to the Lord. He asks a very crucial question in Romans 6.

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

The new life of the believer, which James is also emphasizing is that we are free in Christ; free from sin and baptist into his death resurrecting anew in Spirit. The Law is now a guide for Christian living, and no longer possesses a curse over a person because they are in Christ through Faith Alone. So, Paul says go out into the world and live to God, walk in the Spirit. But these works do not justify a believer before God, only before the world.

I'll continue in another post, so much to share.

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone through Faith Alone!​
 
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Thanks for going to James 2. I'll just respond to that part now.


And James is saying you have Faith (being justified in Christ),​
No. This is what you are inserting to make James 2 say. You want James 2 to say that all who have faith are justified.

James 2 is saying only those that are doing good by their faith, are saved and justified. (Inserting our own teaching into Scripture, does not prove Scripture is teaching it.)

James 2 is saying don't have the faith of our Lord with respect of persons, nor without doing good to others.

Otherwise, we don't have the faith of the Lord Jesus, but only our own faith alone, which is judged dead to man and to the Lord.

If we sin against the Lord, we are dead to the Lord. So with our faith sinning against the brothers and sisters in the Lord.

1Jo 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So also with our love.

By works sinning against man, and/or without works doing good to man, our soul, faith, and love is dead to God and man.
so now show the fruits of it.​
James 2 is converted into show-fruit doctrine.

But remember these fruits are not the cause but the result of being already justified in Christ through Faith Alone.​
James 2 is rejected to preach being justified by faith only, and not by works.

Therefore, show the world or people who see them that you have Faith and are justified before them (people who witness it).​
James 2 is perverted into works are only for show with man.

Mat 23:5
But all their works they do for to be seen of men:


And especially help your fellow brothers and sisters in the lord, not by word of mouth but by deeds;​
Else, our faith is dead, being alone without good works.


but remember we are never justified by works in front of God.​

The gospel of having faith alone, preaches all our works are only for show, to be seen and justified of man alone, and never of God.

I've suspected as much, but I've never seen it so starkly said. Thanks.
 

But remember these fruits are not the cause but the result of being already justified in Christ through Faith Alone.​

but remember we are never justified by works in front of God.

And so, a man is only justified by faith alone without any works at all, not by faith with works.

This agrees with the teaching, that the faith alone that justifies a person, must never have works added to be justified with God.

And so, if anyone adds works with their faith? Then their faith is not alone, being with works. And so their faith with works does not justify the person, not now being faith alone without works.

Jas 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

If anyone says they have works with their faith, then their faith does not save nor justify them, because their faith is not alone, being with works.

The gospel of having faith alone to justify a person with Christ, is not only without works, but is against works ever being added to the faith.

Because it is only the faith being alone without works, that justifies a person with Christ.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The gospel of Jesus Christ only justifies a person living by their faith.

The gospel of having faith alone, only justifies a person by not living their faith.

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Only the gospel preached by the apostles recieved by Scripture, is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

It is well known that there be them that trouble the living saints on earth, by adding works of Moses' law to the faith of Jesus Christ, to be justified by Him.

Now we see there can be them that trouble the righteously living saints on earth, by forbidding any works added to the faith of Jesus Christ, to be justifed by Him.

The former can only be justified by faith with works of the law of Moses, and not by any faith with only good works toward God and man.

The latter can only be justified by faith without works, and not by any faith with good works toward God and man.
 
No. This is what you are inserting to make James 2 say. You want James 2 to say that all who have faith are justified.
Well, Ghada, you have a huge problem on your hands. The Gospel is not the Law, or exhortation for sinners. The Gospel is a Promise that God made to Adam, Eve, and Abraham. The inheritance either comes through the Law or by Grace, but it cannot be both, Paul says in Galatians. For if it comes through the Law then it is longer Grace. But I am interested on how you do think a sinner can be justified by works before God. Please make note, because I am not trying to trick, but pointing out that I am speaking about a sinner before God. Doesn't the Law expose sinners trespasses before a Holy God? And are these works; perfect works that the sinner performs before God?

I suggest that you read Romans where Paul speaks about how a sinner is justified before a Holy God. To the One who does not work, but believes in HIM who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted righteous. This is the Promise God is making here. But you are looking inward for some validation that the works of a sinner can justify him?

You are also pitting Paul & James against each other. So, you have some very big issues to resolve here.​
James 2 is saying only those that are doing good by their faith, are saved and justified. (Inserting our own teaching into Scripture, does not prove Scripture is teaching it.)

James 2 is saying don't have the faith of our Lord with respect of persons, nor without doing good to others.

Otherwise, we don't have the faith of the Lord Jesus, but only our own faith alone, which is judged dead to man and to the Lord.

If we sin against the Lord, we are dead to the Lord. So with our faith sinning against the brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Ghada, James is speaking to believers here, not to non-believers. Didn't I point this out where Paul agrees with James. That once a sinner is justified before God in Christ through Faith Alone, they are to walk in newness of life. So, understand that the good works of the believers flow from their being already justified in Christ.

And if you don't come to this same objection or anticipation of Paul in Romans 6, then you haven't understood what Paul was saying.

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?​

Do you know why Paul said this?
1Jo 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So also with our love.

By works sinning against man, and/or without works doing good to man, our soul, faith, and love is dead to God and man.

James 2 is converted into show-fruit doctrine.


James 2 is rejected to preach being justified by faith only, and not by works.


James 2 is perverted into works are only for show with man.

Mat 23:5
But all their works they do for to be seen of men:



Else, our faith is dead, being alone without good works.




The gospel of having faith alone, preaches all our works are only for show, to be seen and justified of man alone, and never of God.

I've suspected as much, but I've never seen it so starkly said. Thanks.
Turning Gospel into Law or Law into Gospel is perverting the Good News of the ungodly! God saves us in Christ while we are still sinners. Not while we do some good works, then God decides to save us. But please answer this for me. How many good works must one do and must these good works be perfectly holy without a blemish of sin?​
 
And so, a man is only justified by faith alone without any works at all, not by faith with works.

This agrees with the teaching, that the faith alone that justifies a person, must never have works added to be justified with God.

And so, if anyone adds works with their faith? Then their faith is not alone, being with works. And so their faith with works does not justify the person, not now being faith alone without works.

Jas 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

If anyone says they have works with their faith, then their faith does not save nor justify them, because their faith is not alone, being with works.

The gospel of having faith alone to justify a person with Christ, is not only without works, but is against works ever being added to the faith.

Because it is only the faith being alone without works, that justifies a person with Christ.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The gospel of Jesus Christ only justifies a person living by their faith.

The gospel of having faith alone, only justifies a person by not living their faith.

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Only the gospel preached by the apostles recieved by Scripture, is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

It is well known that there be them that trouble the living saints on earth, by adding works of Moses' law to the faith of Jesus Christ, to be justified by Him.

Now we see there can be them that trouble the righteously living saints on earth, by forbidding any works added to the faith of Jesus Christ, to be justifed by Him.

The former can only be justified by faith with works of the law of Moses, and not by any faith with only good works toward God and man.

The latter can only be justified by faith without works, and not by any faith with good works toward God and man.
I see you are quoting from Galatians, I love Galatians. Understanding the distinction between Law passages & Gospel passages; or between Commands and Promises. Who is the Covenant Keeper? Is it Man or God?

Justified by Faith​

Galatians 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

I do have a question for you. Are you familiar with Legalism & Antinomianism? If you are, can you define them for me, please.​
 
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