FutureAndAHope
Sophomore
I see at times on the forum that it is asked to explain Romans 9 from a free will perspective, the idea that God gives all a chance of life to all. So I will do my best to do so.
Romans 9 is a passage that is showing that the Jews by birth alone are not the people of God. But that the people of God are those to whom the promise has been given.
Romans 9:6-8: …For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Paul then uses examples to show just because a person is of the seed (bodily) of Abraham does not make them of the promise.
The example of Jacob and Esau is used. And it says it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER." If you look a Christian literature, from the Early Church Fathers you will see they understood this to be a picture of the Gentiles (the younger) inheriting the birth right of the (older) Jews. The Early Church saw this a reflecting how Christ would come and take the gentiles into the fold, giving us grace. So when Romans 9:11 says:
Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
This would be seen as a prophetic statement about grace. In the same way, the Early Church saw Jacob as a prophetic picture of the Gentiles, so too they would see the fact the choice was before any good or evil being done, a prophetic picture of how salvation would come, “not of works, but of Him who calls”. That purpose of God would come via the promise of Christ.
He goes on to say:
Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
When Paul says: “So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.”, it is not a Calvinistic thought that man’s actions have no part in the salvation journey. But rather as he was just saying salvation is “not of works but of Him who gives the call”, it is by grace, not by prior effort or fleshly affiliation.
The passage goes on to say, it is up to God whom He saves, or hardens. It is God’s right to decree the Gentles as joint heirs with the Jews, and His right to harden any who sins. Again this is not suggesting that God has decreed some to life, and some to death. For all men are given an equal chance of life, whosoever believes can be saved. But rather points out the fact that it is God’s choice which way He saves.
A part of that salvation journey is He blinds the sinner. The one who suppresses His light. So in that sense, they cannot help but remain in sin. So for them, they would say:
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
After stating they have no right to complain. We also see a point in the passage where Paul says:
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
This suggests that God first “endured with much longsuffering”, the vessels of wrath. Meaning they were at a point in their life given grace, after grace, but refused it. Their foolish hearts were then darkened and they became vessels of wrath, their life became used for a dark purpose.
Barabus Epistle – Part 2
Chap. XIII. — Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.
But let us see if this people134 is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. (Gen_25:21) Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen_25:23) You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” (Gen_48:11, Gen_48:9) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh135 should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,135 for he is my first-born son.” (Gen_48:18) And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” (Gen_48:19) Ye see on whom he laid136 [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed,137 it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.” (Gen_15:6, Gen_17:5; comp. Rom_4:3)
Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 21-29
Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.
2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom_9:13; Mal_1:2)
3. If any one, again, will look into Jacob’s actions, he shall find them not destitute of meaning, but full of import with regard to the dispensations. Thus, in the first place, at his birth, since he laid hold on his brother’s heel, (Gen_25:26) he was called Jacob, that is, the supplanter — one who holds, but is not held; binding the feet, but not being bound; striving and conquering; grasping in his hand his adversary’s heel, that is, victory. For to this end was the Lord born, the type of whose birth he set forth beforehand, of whom also John says in the Apocalypse: “He went forth conquering, that He should conquer.” (Rev_6:2) In the next place, [Jacob] received the rights of the first-born, when his brother looked on them with contempt; even as also the younger nation received Him, Christ, the first-begotten, when the elder nation rejected Him, saying, “We have no king but Caesar.” (Joh_19:15) But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessing of this Esau.
Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho Ch 103-121
Chap. CXX. — Christians Were Promised to Isaac, Jacob, and Judah.
“Observe, too, how the same promises are made to Isaac and to Jacob. For thus He speaks to Isaac: ‘And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen_26:4) And to Jacob: ‘And in thee and in thy seed shall all families of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen_28:14) He says that neither to Esau nor to Reuben, nor to any other; only to those of whom the Christ should arise, according to the dispensation, through the Virgin Mary. But if you would consider the blessing of Judah, you would perceive what I say. For the seed is divided from Jacob, and comes down through Judah, and Phares, and Jesse, and David. And this was a symbol of the fact that some of your nation would be found children of Abraham, and found, too, in the lot of Christ; but that others, who are indeed children of Abraham, would be like the sand on the sea-shore, barren and fruitless, much in quantity, and without number indeed, but bearing no fruit whatever, and only drinking the water of the sea. And a vast multitude in your nation are convicted of being of this kind, imbibing doctrines of bitterness and godlessness, but spurning the word of God.
Romans 9 is a passage that is showing that the Jews by birth alone are not the people of God. But that the people of God are those to whom the promise has been given.
Romans 9:6-8: …For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Paul then uses examples to show just because a person is of the seed (bodily) of Abraham does not make them of the promise.
The example of Jacob and Esau is used. And it says it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER." If you look a Christian literature, from the Early Church Fathers you will see they understood this to be a picture of the Gentiles (the younger) inheriting the birth right of the (older) Jews. The Early Church saw this a reflecting how Christ would come and take the gentiles into the fold, giving us grace. So when Romans 9:11 says:
Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
This would be seen as a prophetic statement about grace. In the same way, the Early Church saw Jacob as a prophetic picture of the Gentiles, so too they would see the fact the choice was before any good or evil being done, a prophetic picture of how salvation would come, “not of works, but of Him who calls”. That purpose of God would come via the promise of Christ.
He goes on to say:
Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
When Paul says: “So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.”, it is not a Calvinistic thought that man’s actions have no part in the salvation journey. But rather as he was just saying salvation is “not of works but of Him who gives the call”, it is by grace, not by prior effort or fleshly affiliation.
The passage goes on to say, it is up to God whom He saves, or hardens. It is God’s right to decree the Gentles as joint heirs with the Jews, and His right to harden any who sins. Again this is not suggesting that God has decreed some to life, and some to death. For all men are given an equal chance of life, whosoever believes can be saved. But rather points out the fact that it is God’s choice which way He saves.
A part of that salvation journey is He blinds the sinner. The one who suppresses His light. So in that sense, they cannot help but remain in sin. So for them, they would say:
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
After stating they have no right to complain. We also see a point in the passage where Paul says:
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
This suggests that God first “endured with much longsuffering”, the vessels of wrath. Meaning they were at a point in their life given grace, after grace, but refused it. Their foolish hearts were then darkened and they became vessels of wrath, their life became used for a dark purpose.
Barabus Epistle – Part 2
Chap. XIII. — Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.
But let us see if this people134 is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. (Gen_25:21) Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen_25:23) You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” (Gen_48:11, Gen_48:9) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh135 should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,135 for he is my first-born son.” (Gen_48:18) And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” (Gen_48:19) Ye see on whom he laid136 [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed,137 it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.” (Gen_15:6, Gen_17:5; comp. Rom_4:3)
Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 21-29
Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.
2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom_9:13; Mal_1:2)
3. If any one, again, will look into Jacob’s actions, he shall find them not destitute of meaning, but full of import with regard to the dispensations. Thus, in the first place, at his birth, since he laid hold on his brother’s heel, (Gen_25:26) he was called Jacob, that is, the supplanter — one who holds, but is not held; binding the feet, but not being bound; striving and conquering; grasping in his hand his adversary’s heel, that is, victory. For to this end was the Lord born, the type of whose birth he set forth beforehand, of whom also John says in the Apocalypse: “He went forth conquering, that He should conquer.” (Rev_6:2) In the next place, [Jacob] received the rights of the first-born, when his brother looked on them with contempt; even as also the younger nation received Him, Christ, the first-begotten, when the elder nation rejected Him, saying, “We have no king but Caesar.” (Joh_19:15) But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessing of this Esau.
Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho Ch 103-121
Chap. CXX. — Christians Were Promised to Isaac, Jacob, and Judah.
“Observe, too, how the same promises are made to Isaac and to Jacob. For thus He speaks to Isaac: ‘And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen_26:4) And to Jacob: ‘And in thee and in thy seed shall all families of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen_28:14) He says that neither to Esau nor to Reuben, nor to any other; only to those of whom the Christ should arise, according to the dispensation, through the Virgin Mary. But if you would consider the blessing of Judah, you would perceive what I say. For the seed is divided from Jacob, and comes down through Judah, and Phares, and Jesse, and David. And this was a symbol of the fact that some of your nation would be found children of Abraham, and found, too, in the lot of Christ; but that others, who are indeed children of Abraham, would be like the sand on the sea-shore, barren and fruitless, much in quantity, and without number indeed, but bearing no fruit whatever, and only drinking the water of the sea. And a vast multitude in your nation are convicted of being of this kind, imbibing doctrines of bitterness and godlessness, but spurning the word of God.
