Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

[JIM]

Yes, just like Adam's image after his fall, not before his fall into sin, and rebellion against God~which image before his disobedience was created after God's image in true holiness, with true knowledge, understanding and wisdom, which Adam lost when he sinned~which btw, the new man by God's power is recreated in, which nature/image cannot sin, and hates sin......

No, not just like Adam's image after his fall. Yes, just like Adam's image before he sinned. Adam was created in the image of God. All men are born in the image of God. Both in the creation of Adam and in the birth of man, God gives a spirit that is undamaged. Adam's image was "damaged" when he sinned. Our image was "damaged" when we sinned. The damage to that spirit when we sin is the reason that we need to be reborn, to return that "damaged" spirit to its undamaged condition.

1 John 3:9​

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Yet, because God's elect still live in this body of sin and death, we still have sin in our flesh seeking to bring us into servitude, and under its power. This is the truth of the word of God, any other doctrine is a lie of the devil.

Having such nature without having been born of God, is nothing but a flesh of pure wickedness, regardless, how one seeks to present himself otherwise~one is a fool without biblical understanding if one believes a person is a good person apart from being born of God, that person (unregenerate person) is nothing short of the devil himself, and all who have not been born of God would prove to be one of Satan's children if put into a certain circumstance that would force a person show one's true colors in order to saved himself form any hurt, loss, etc.

Jim, I know this is so, by believing the word of God, and personal experience of living in this world for going on 77 years.

And Red, I know that is not so and you are wrong by believing the word of God and personal experience of living in this world soon to be 86 years.

We are born of God when we are born. We become dead in sin once we sin. That is why we need to be reborn. We are reborn in the spirit, not in the flesh. We were once born in the flesh and the spirit. It is the spirit, not the flesh, that needs to be reborn.

I hear you ~you must say this, or else, confess that you are the one lacking true understanding, but your pride will not allow you do even consider that you are the one that may be missing simple truth. No pun intended, just stating a fact.

Jim, this warped understanding you have is the results of refusing to submit to the truth/testimony of the holy scriptures which testimony is God's own testimony of the truth.

Jim, it is not just one's spirit is damaged (a self promoted use of a word (s) to support a false position) by personal sin, committed after we are born into this world ~for this is true of all men even children of God who have been born of God with a new nature.
Jim, at the very second Adam sinned he died (so did Eve btw and all of their children from Adam's seed are still born spiritually speaking). So much more than his spirit was damaged ~ whatever that means, is totally unknown, since the scriptures does not use that terminology.

Scriptures do not use the terminology of total depravity either. but you have no problem issuing pages upon pages of what that means.

Adam died spiritually the very second he sinned. He didn't die physically for hundreds of years. Genesis 5:5 tells us he lived to be 930 years old. He died physically because he no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life (Gen 3:22). The only physical repercussions of Adam's sin were due to his having to contend with life outside of the Garden.

1st Corinthians 15:21​

“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

That is speaking of physical death, not spiritual death. All die and all will be resurrected, independent of whether or not they were regenerated.

All men from Adam onward died, for all men sinned in Adam. you do not have to accept this to be true, it is true regardless if we believe it or not!

The phrase, the concept, of "sinned in Adam" is a false construct for the purpose of supporting your false doctrine of total depravity. No one The phrase "in Adam" only expresses the condition of being human. Even one in Christ is "in Adam". "In Adam" is not a condition derived from Adam's sin. It is derived from God's created process of procreation, which is "after its own kind" as are all animals physically, biologically.

You are so wrong in wanting to believe that we are born into this world in original grace whatever that means...... you come up with your own doctrine terminologies to go along with your false gospel of including man's work into his salvation from sin and condemnation.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh." Here "the flesh" is the name given to human nature as fallen ~ it must not be restricted to the body (as in a few passages it is)—but understood (as generally in the New Testament) of the entire human constitution in its fallen condition. Romans 8:4-9, etc.

Red, even in your condition of being born again, and I truly believe that you are, you were born of the flesh and you are still in the flesh. You continue to sin, hopefully less and less as you continue even at 77 years old to become more and more sanctified. In the flesh is nothing more than being human.

How our nature is passed from father to his children we may not fully understand, (at least I do not) yet we know that it is, by understanding the scriptures, such as Genesis 5:3, and more so, even the necessity of the virgin birth of our Lord Jesus not coming through the seed of Adam, but God being his Father. The sin nature is passed from father to his children, through copulation. This cannot be denied. Thereby, that which is born of flesh IS FLESH, and must be born again by God.

That is all gobbledygook. We know very well, even if not perfectly, how our nature is passed from parent to child. But that "nature" is not spiritual, it is physical. Our spiritual being is not passed from a parent, father or mother. It is given, formed, by God Himself. The reason for the impregnation of Mary by the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with the "sin nature", or lack thereof, for Jesus Christ. It had to do with being the Son of God, the actual, the literal, Son of God. Jesus was male. He had an X chromosome and a Y chromosome. His X chromosome was by His mother Mary, His Y chromosome was by His faither God. That was His flesh, His human being. His Spirit was the Word, the pre-incarnate being, the second being of the Trinity.

As in the birth of every human being on this planet from Adam, God forms, gives, implants a spirit at (or sometime before) birth. What spirit was given Jesus at birth? The answer is in Jesus' case, a spirit was not formed, given, implanted. Rather it was the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus that took on the body of flesh in birth. John 1:14 And the Word (Jesus Christ) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. He became flesh. So your concept of "the flesh" as the name given to human nature as fallen" is simply wrong. Flesh simply means human. Jesus became human. The pre-incarnate Jesus, called the Word, in John 1 became human in the flesh. His diety, His divinity, is in His pre- incarnate Spirit.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, not just like Adam's image after his fall. Yes, just like Adam's image before he sinned. Adam was created in the image of God. All men are born in the image of God. Both in the creation of Adam and in the birth of man, God gives a spirit that is undamaged. Adam's image was "damaged" when he sinned. Our image was "damaged" when we sinned. The damage to that spirit when we sin is the reason that we need to be reborn, to return that "damaged" spirit to its undamaged condition.

I would offer,

Adam's spirit was dead. a man must be born again. The letter. Thou shall not kills


Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The damage is beyond repair can't fix deader than a door nail . Believers receive a new born again heart and spirit.

Image personality not likeness Mirror . God is not a man as us.

 

[Arial]

Not in exact words, but Original Sin does proclaim the spirit is dead in sin at birth.

In some circles it is phrased as spiritually dead. I personally do not like that phrase because I do not feel it has Biblical support. However, I do know what is meant by it when it is used and agree with it, and it is not that our spirit is dead. Even a novice Should recognize the difference between spirit and spiritual. So once again you misrepresent what it contained in the doctrine by imposing your definitions onto it. Do you understand what that last sentence means? If not, I will try again to explain it, though careful logical thinking should do the trick.

When spiritually dead is used it refers to, and in agreement with Scripture, that we cannot quicken ourselves to life in the Spirit. We cannot regenerate ourselves. Only God can do that. Until and unless he does this, we cannot understand the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned.

Who said anything about any wayward Christianity?

I did, and that was not the point. I did however point out what was wayward about it.

But I know enough about it to know that it is from God, not man because the Bible tells us so. And I know that God would not give anyone a spirit already dead in sin. You can challenge that if you want. But to do so you will have to say and admit to postulate some really bad things about God.

You are operating from a false premise that Original Sin claims that a person's spirit comes from man. It never makes any such claim and you think it does because you are imposing your definitions and your emotions onto the doctrine.

 

[Ghada]

Ghada said:
He gave Himself a ransom for us, not pay for our sins. Only the soul that sins, dies by sinning.

A ransom by definition is offering something in the place of another to satisfy the demands that are placed by someone, on someone. So, in the case of Christ, what was the demand, who made the demand, who violated the demand and could not meet the demand, what did Jesus give his life to meet, and to whom?

First, we see the Scripture is established, that the only the soul that sins does die to God.

A ransom by definition is offering something in the place of another to satisfy the demands that are placed by someone, on someone.

Or, by something, on something. Such as the law demanding death of the transgressor, or by law that of bulls and goats to ransom the people from their transgressions.

So, in the case of Christ, what was the demand,

In the case of Scripture, the demand is death for transgession of the law.

who made the demand

God makes the demand by law. The law demands death for transgression.

who violated the demand

Every man that sins against God violates the law, which demands death.

Rom 2:12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

and could not meet the demand,

Every sinner meets the demand of law, by dying to God.

No transgressor can meet that demand to ransom himself from death, because we would have to die that death to do so.

what did Jesus give his life to meet

What life did Jesus give to meet the demand of law of sacrifice?

Mat 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

He gave His life in the flesh to minster to the unjust, and also His body unto death for our sins. He did not give the life of His soul to death, which is only by sin and trespass against God.

, and to whom?

He died to man bodily, when man killed Him. He did not die to God, which is only by sin.

As is established in Scripture, only the soul that sinneth shall die to God.

Ezek 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

1 Pe 2:22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree...

The Son committed Himself to the Father's will. He did not die to God by sin, but was killed by sinners unjustly in the name of God.

Now in context, we look at Jesus Christ paying the price of the law, which is death by transgression, and ransoming souls with great price to Himself.

Mat 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pe 2:22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree...

Jesus Christ the righteous only died bodily. The only sins He bore on the tree were only on His body, not His soul. He knew no sin and had no sin in His soul to die by. The sins He bore were in His body, and were the wicked sins of stripes and piercings committed against Him unto death, which were contrary to the law against shedding the innocent blood.

Isaiah{50:5} The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. {50:6} I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Psa 22:16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Now we can see how the law's demand of animal sacrifice for sins, also foreshadowed the Lamb of God's own sacrifice:

1. The sacrifice was only killed bodily. No bull nor goat could die spiritually, because dumb animals do not have souls to sin by. And neither did the Lamb of God have any sin to die by spiritually.

2. The blood of bulls and goats was therefore innocent of sin, even as the blood of Jesus Christ the righteous, who knew no sin in life nor death. By law, His innocent blood therefore could be shed for the sins of the guilty.

Now we look at how the death of Jesus Christ was not the same as bulls and goats:

Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

For the innocent blood of bulls and goats to pay the price of the law, and redeem the people, they first had to lay their hands on the live head of sacrifice, and confessing their past sins and transgressions.

No man laid hands on Jesus' head at the cross, other than His tormentors. Much less was anyone confessing sin at the cross, especially not His accusers: The death of Jesus alone was not sufficient for the law to pardon any man's past transgressions.

Neither Joseph of Arimathea nor Nicodemus were ransomed from the law by laying hold on the dead body and head of Jesus. No matter how sorry they no doubt was for His death.

Therefore, the death was made, and the price was paid, but the ransoming is not complete, without godly sorrow confession and repentance upon living sacrifice's head. By His death alone, no man by law is ransomed and purged with that price of His death.

And so, being dead, what are we to do?

Act 2:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:... Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?...Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Since no man repented with hands on the Son at the cross, then by His resurrection from the dead, we must and can lay hands on the live Head of the risen Lamb of God, with repentance of our own sins and trespasses that slew Him.

Rom 4:25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The first lie is that Jesus' soul died on the cross for sins. The second lie is that any man is bought back and forgiven by His death alone.

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Without shedding of the innocent blood of the sacrifice, and confession of sins about the live head, there can be no purging by the law.

Therefore, to be redeemed from the law by the Lamb of God Jesus Christ, we must confess and repent with hands upon His resurrected living Head. Only then is anyone by the Spirit Himself ransomed, bought, and purged by law from transgressions.

1Co 6:20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The nececessary price of the law was paid by Jesus' bodily price. The soul is bought back from the law by repentence toward the resurrected Lamb of God.

Any soul still glorifying the world with the body, is manifestly not ransomed, redeemed, and purged from sins, because they have not confessed with godly sorrow and repented with their hands laid on His living Head.

Col 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

The price of the law is paid by Jesus' death, but no man is paid and ransomed from the law by His death alone. No matter how much voluntary humility and reverence we may display over His dead body.

 

[Ghada]

By birth and adoption is a contradiction.

Scripture doesn't contradict itself. We are both adopted and born by God.

What man cannot do, God can.

But newborn in Christ would obviously be the new birth of John 3, which is a work of the Holy Spirit within a person.

Which is the Spirit first recieved and working within the newborn babe of God in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Even as newborn babes from the womb are without works, so are newborn babes by the faith of Jesus Christ.

There are no works with the newborn son of God, when all past works have been forgiven and forgotten by the Father.

Being without works, is not being apart from works. Without works, is without doing any works. Set apart from works is with works, set apart from the worker. The former is for babes newly forgiven of God, the latter is impossible and only a vain wish of justification apart from works we do.

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

However, Peter in that passage is not calling them newborn babes.

No man is called an angel, but in the resurrection unto life, we will be as the angels.

Mar 12:25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

By being spoken of as newborn babes of God, we must be newborn babes of God. Otherwise, the exhortation is meaningless and impossible.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

But even as babes from the womb are newborn of flesh and blood, so are babes newborn of the Spirit.

The analogy is therefore the same, being newborn without works, and desiring milk.

Are you trying to say that no man becomes a born son of God at one time in life, as opposed to the time before?

I don't understand your problem with something so simple and practical pertaining to the spiritual things of God in this life. Is it because you have a problem of being a whole new creature of God at once, even as newborn babes?

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Being born of God is some kind of gradual process, like man's own progressive sanctification process? Neither which are of God by His Spirit:

Heb 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

He is telling them to be thirsty for the word of truth, and grow in understanding to arrive at the meat of the word, like newborn natural babies are thirsty for milk and grow until they eat solid food. Read the passage again and acknowledge that that is so.

Never have. My argument is not against what newborn babes are and do, but for what Scripture says of them: Newborn without works, and seeking milk to drink.

 

[Arial]

Scripture doesn't contradict itself. We are both adopted and born by God.

What man cannot do, God can.


Which is the Spirit first recieved and working within the newborn babe of God in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Even as newborn babes from the womb are without works, so are newborn babes by the faith of Jesus Christ.

There are no works with the newborn son of God, when all past works have been forgiven and forgotten by the Father.

Being without works, is not being apart from works. Without works, is without doing any works. Set apart from works is with works, set apart from the worker. The former is for babes newly forgiven of God, the latter is impossible and only a vain wish of justification apart from works we do.

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:


No man is called an angel, but in the resurrection unto life, we will be as the angels.

Mar 12:25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

By being spoken of as newborn babes of God, we must be newborn babes of God. Otherwise, the exhortation is meaningless and impossible.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

But even as babes from the womb are newborn of flesh and blood, so are babes newborn of the Spirit.

The analogy is therefore the same, being newborn without works, and desiring milk.

Are you trying to say that no man becomes a born son of God at one time in life, as opposed to the time before?

I don't understand your problem with something so simple and practical pertaining to the spiritual things of God in this life. Is it because you have a problem of being a whole new creature of God at once, even as newborn babes?

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Being born of God is some kind of gradual process, like man's own progressive sanctification process? Neither which are of God by His Spirit:

Heb 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



Never have. My argument is not against what newborn babes are and do, but for what Scripture says of them: Newborn without works, and seeking milk to drink.

When you respond to my posts, most of the time you respond with something completely unrelated to what I posted. You are impossible to communicate with.

 

[Ghada]

Weren't all our sins future sins when Christ died on the cross?

No sins were forgiven at the cross, but all men that sin are condemned of His death.

Only them that repent by His resurrection are forgiven of our past sins.

 

[Ghada]

When you respond to my posts, most of the time you respond with something completely unrelated to what I posted. You are impossible to communicate with.

When I respond with Scripture to show an error in what you say, and you act like it's unrelated to what you say, it's impossible to communicate with you by Scripture.

But so long as you continue to say things to me apart from Scripture, I'll still quote Scripture to show it's only what you say, not God.

By birth and adoption is a contradiction.

Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
We are both adopted and born by God. What man cannot do, God can by His Spirit.

 

[Ghada]

..Faith that comes from hearing God is never alone

Very true. You're on a good roll here.

The faith of Jesus Christ we recieve from Him, comes with His Spirit.

Gal 3:2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Therefore, being newborn babes without works, is not having faith alone.

If we are doing works displeasing to the Father, then our faith is not from Jesus Christ, but only from ourselves alone.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

No man does bad works by the faith and Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Arial]

First, we see the Scripture is established, that the only the soul that sins does die to God.

Unrelated to the question.

In the case of Scripture, the demand is death for transgession of the law.

In the case of Scripture, the demand is perfect moral holiness.

God makes the demand by law. The law demands death for transgression.

God makes the demand by being God, having made us in his image likeness, and demands perfect moral righteousness. That command existed the minute he created Adam and Eve and has never ceased to exist.

Every man that sins against God violates the law, which demands death.

Every man sins.

Every sinner meets the demand of law, by dying to God.

No transgressor can meet that demand to ransom himself from death, because we would have to die that death to do so.

No sinner meets the demand of God's moral law. JESUS meets the penalty in the believers place.

What life did Jesus give to meet the demand of law of sacrifice?

Mat 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

He gave His life in the flesh to minster to the unjust, and also His body unto death for our sins. He did not give the life of His soul to death, which is only by sin and trespass against God.

WHy did you reword my question? The question was "what did Jesus give his life to meet? The answer is God's justice against sin.

I don't know if you are following some specific denominational or specific teaching, or if you are just making up your own religion. But that last sentence (and most of what you post) shows zero understanding of Jesus, God, the atonement, the cross, ransom, justification,---salvation. And you have proven that it is pointless to try and help you out of the tangle. You don't listen, and don't care evidently.

He died to man bodily, when man killed Him. He did not die to God, which is only by sin.

He died to MAN?!! That is a terrible thing to lay of my Lord. God is just. That is not simply an attribute---it is who he is. He declared a penalty for sin. Therefore sin must and will meet that penalty. It was to God, in satisfaction of his justice against sin, that Christ went willingly to the cross. In that, those God is giving him have their sin paid for in his death. It was the fact that he had no sin of his own that qualified him as this substitute. He atoned for their sins. It was because he had no sin of his own that death could not hold him and he rose again to life. His righteousness is then imputed to the believer. On the cross, Jesus Wars purchasing a people for God and his kingdom, with his blood.

 

[Arial]

No sins were forgiven at the cross, but all men that sin are condemned of His death.

Only them that repent by His resurrection are forgiven of our past sins.

What religion are you? It certainly isn't Christian. The above is anti-Christian.

 

[Ghada]

That is, adults who are newly justified, regenerated and sanctified; not the newly physical born or the very young?

Certainly. Simple, right?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

It's actually nothing controversial, but common sense. We become newborn babes in Christ, whjen we first become born sons of God, even as Christians testify of first recieving Christ.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Who would argue against such conversion taking place at one time in life, and is set apart from the life before? However, opposition gets sitrred up to something so simple, when it's significance is revelaed in Scripture of Rom 4, that only pertains to being justified without works in the beginning of faith, and Jas 2 that only pertains to being also justified with works, while having faith in the Lord.

When I first understood this, is when I ceased any feeling of contradiction, or even need to argue about justification of the Lord in Rom 4 and Jas 2. It's the same justification by His faith when first recieved, and also when living by His faith.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith:

We who are first imputed righteousness by faith toward God, must also live by His faith in Christ Jesus. Simple. Otherwise, we preach a religion of hypocrisy, where we believe we are forever justified by our faith alone in God, even when with evil deeds like others, whom we also say are condemned by God.

Being justified by faith without works, is not the same justification apart from works. The former is doing not works, the latter is separating ourtselves from our works we do.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4 is for not doing works, and so being without works. Jas 2 is for them doing works, and so with works. It's really simple sense in life.

The only problem is with anyone believing Romans 4 applies for life, even with works being done, whether good or evil deeds. That's the traditional lie of being justified by faith alone apart from any works we are doing.

But of course, you get the simple point, because you are not sold on that tradition. I share it with others that also have not bought into OSAS, and they see the simple sense of it. And the ones who most readily understand it's common sense? Those with no theological axe to grind.

 

[prism]

No sins were forgiven at the cross, but all men that sin are condemned of His death.

Only them that repent by His resurrection are forgiven of our past sins.

Ephesians 1:7 ESV
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

 

[Red Baker]

You are impossible to communicate with.

At least he will communicate with you, more than I can do to get him to answer to the many posts which I've made to him. But, I'm waiting patiently, so, we shall see.

 

[Mr GLee]

Who would argue against such conversion taking place at one time in life, and is set apart from the life before? However, opposition gets sitrred up to something so simple, when it's significance is revelaed in Scripture of Rom 4, that only pertains to being justified without works in the beginning of faith, and Jas 2 that only pertains to being also justified with works, while having faith in the Lord.

Works cannot be separated from faith or trust .

The law of faith or power of of believing ."let there be" and the testimony was "God alone good" .

Salvation the simplicity God pouring out his Spirit on dying flesh in jeapordy of his own power . He is not served by human hands as a will'

Prove faith is not a work?

 

[Ghada]

(Rom 3:28) For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (faith alone)

The translation is bad, and intended to change the doctrine in context.

The Scripture is being without works, where no works are being done. The Scripture is never about being separated from the works we do.

(Rom 4:5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Which is proven here in Romans 4: We are without works, because no works are being done by us.

Being apart from works is with works, not without works. It's the doctrinal hypocrisy and fiction of separating ourselves from our works. It rejects the true warning of Scripture, that God judges us all by our works, not apart from our works.

 

[Ghada]

There is a difference between becoming newly born babes of God without works, and becoming obedient sons of God with good works.

1 Peter{1:14} As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Newborn babes are without works, not yet being with obedient works of the Father.

Sons with obedient works are no more babes, but are obedient children of the Father. Children with dosobedient works, are children of disobedience.

(Rom 4:5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Babes are without works, because they are not doing works. But children are with works, and are never apart from the works we do.

No one doing works is without works, and no one with works, are judged apart from our works.

1Jo 3:9 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever that doeth unrighteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

We are all judged by our works as being children of the Father, or being children of the devil.

 

[Ghada]

When you respond to my posts, most of the time you respond with something completely unrelated to what I posted. You are impossible to communicate with.

It's impossible to indoctrinate me, and I don't try to indoctrinate others.

1Co 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

 

[Arial]

It's impossible to indoctrinate me, and I don't try to indoctrinate others.

1Co 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

You already are indoctrinated.

 

[prism]

The translation is bad, and intended to change the doctrine in context.

Are you a language expert? Do you work on a Translation Committee?

The Scripture is being without works, where no works are being done.

Which works would you like to add?

The Scripture is never about being separated from the works we do.

Agreed.

Which is proven here in Romans 4: We are without works, because no works are being done by us.

Paul's point after concluding ALL were under sin in Rom 3 was that No works could be done by us which would add one iota to our justification before God.

Being apart from works is with works, not without works. It's the doctrinal hypocrisy and fiction of separating ourselves from our works. It rejects the true warning of Scripture, that God judges us all by our works, not apart from our works.

As we are inseparably linked to Christ through the new birth, His works become our works, and we have passed from judgment into Life (John 5:24).