Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

[Red Baker]

Red, why do you insist on imposing a terribly false definition of the Greek word "eis"? There is no credible interpretation/interpreter of Greek that agrees with you. NONE. A couple have tried and get shot down by dozens more. Argue all you want about what you think such passages like Luke 3:3 mean, but please, please do not use such an obvious and blatant mistake to do so.

The English word "for" in Luke 3:3 is a perfectly good interpretation when it means, as Strong's shows:

G1519​

εἰς

eis

ice

A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.
Total KJV occurrences: 1693

It never means "because of", NEVER.

Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for [to, into, unto, for the intent, for the purpose] the remission of sins;

Jim, I used my English bible to show how the Spirit uses the word "for"~I'm not interested in a Greek lessons of words, when I have the word of God in my own language, that makes no sense. The Lord Jesus, nor his apostles never mentioned using the originals meaning of words in the Hebrews, in order to teach a certain doctrines, they used the scriptures available to them, which were handed down to them by ready scribes, and so will I. For is used in the sense of "because of"~in so many scriptures, and not only that, the pure gospel of Jesus Christ demands such this sense, to keep man from thinking he has an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. Enough said.

Mark 1:44​

“And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.”

This is the same message we tell sinners who have been saved from sin and condemnation~"go thy way, shew thyself to the disciples, and offer for thy cleansing those things which the word of God commanded."

 

[Red Baker]

It does depart from the gospel of Jesus Christ, if repentance is not necessary to recieve the righteous faith of Jesus Christ unto salvation.

I've already given the Scriptures preaching preaching to salvation.





Repentance for conversion is not a work, but only ceasing of works.



The gospel command to repent is to become born by His Spirit.




There is no believing with God before repenting toward God.



A completely false translation, that is as bad as saying the Word was a god, rather than the Word was God.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus Christ's blood was not shed, because our sins were already forgiven.




Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God's granted repentance is granted unto His life, faith, conversion, and salvation by Jesus Christ.





Sons and saints of God do live in Christ Jesus, as never before in sin and trespass.

Living unlike before by sinning less than before, is not God's granted repentance from all past works, but is only man's own gradual repentance in their own good time and will.




Anyone doing unrighteousness, or not doing the good we know to do at the time, has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.






Jesus Christ's practical salvation from sinning, is begun by practical repentance from sinful deeds for His sake.



Whatever time sinners want to take to repent of their deeds, is time taken away from the Spirit and life of God, to continue doing their sinful deeds.



And with any ungodly fruit, we have no reason to believe our calling and election with God is sure.

2 Peter 1:6Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He shows mercy to sinners that repent for His sake. And freely creates us all new creatures of God, without past works of the devil.

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,




The only works sinners do is works of their own lust.

Jas 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


Having trouble performing, is endurance to perform, not failure to perform.

Jas 1:2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

All saints in Christ Jesus perform the same as He did in the flesh, enduring all temptations, trials, and tribulations of this life unto the end.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.



All sinners must do is repent from sins and traspasses for Jesus' sake.




It's the gospel of Scriptures already given.



True. A repented born son and saint in Christ Jesus, is in whom there is no sin nor sinner.

Rom 11:27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jhn 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

The righteous Head Jesus Christ has no unrighteous member of His body. The only head of a body with sinful members and works, is another Christ, not Jesus Christ.




No unrighteous person is made righteous by someone else doing righteousness. Even as no righteous person is made a sinner by someone else sinning.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

The commandment to repent is to all men and women. The promise of mercy is to anyone that repents for Jesus' sake.

Mat 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.







Being justified without works, is not being justified apart from our works.

No man becomes justified by God with works. No man is justified by God with evil works.

I'm coming back to answer both posts to me later~in the meantime, will you go and address the many posts to you in your Romans nine thread? Thanks.

 

[JIM]

I will also add this: Conversion is different from regeneration, yet generally speaking, it is new born believers that go through conversions, some quicker than others, and that it may take a few years for one to be seen as clearly establish in the faith and ready to teach others.

I have never quite understood your definition of conversion. It is not a term that is much used in scripture. I use the term as that point in the life of a sinner when he becomes converted from being a lost sinner to being a saved saint.

Even newborn believers can bring forth fruits showing true repentance and they must do so, before they cam be baptized into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ, if not, they they cannot be baptized. Matthew 3:8; Acts 8:37; etc.

I think we need to be very careful about ever assuming that we have any right or authority to decide when or if another person is baptized. The age-old question dating back to the time of Calvin is that of determining how much fruit it takes to know when you or another has been saved. That is particularly true in the case of the Reformed Theology monergistic regeneration.

We often hear that "You shall know them by their fruits". That is found in Matthew, chapter 7. However, that is said about false prophets, faithful followers.

 

[JIM]

Jim, I used my English bible to show how the Spirit uses the word "for"~I'm not interested in a Greek lessons of words, when I have the word of God in my own language, that makes no sense. The Lord Jesus, nor his apostles never mentioned using the originals meaning of words in the Hebrews, in order to teach a certain doctrines, they used the scriptures available to them, which were handed down to them by ready scribes, and so will I. For is used in the sense of "because of"~in so many scriptures, and not only that, the pure gospel of Jesus Christ demands such this sense, to keep man from thinking he has an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. Enough said.

Mark 1:44​

“And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.”

This is the same message we tell sinners who have been saved from sin and condemnation~"go thy way, shew thyself to the disciples, and offer for thy cleansing those things which the word of God commanded."

Yes, I understand that you choose to ignore the original language of the scriptures. And that causes you to come to some wrong conclusions. And yes, the English word "for" is used in the sense of "because of" in so many scriptures. But it does so when the original Greek can be translated/interpreted to carry that meaning.

Thus in Mark 1:44 the phrase "for thy cleansing" in the Greek the word translated as "for" is περί [peri] which can properly be translated as "because of".

In that same verse, the word "for" appears in "for a testimony". There clearly the meaning there is not "because of" a testimony. There the meaning is rightly "unto" a testimony, or "as" a testimony, or "in order for" a testimony. There the Greek word is εἰς [eis] which means "into, unto, to, towards, in order for". And that is the same Greek word used in "for the forgiveness of sins", meaning "unto" or "in order for" the forgiveness of sins.

Red, you do yourself a terrible disservice by not making use of the available information on the original languages of scripture.

 

[Red Baker]

I have never quite understood your definition of conversion. It is not a term that is much used in scripture. I use the term as that point in the life of a sinner when he becomes converted from being a lost sinner to being a saved saint.

Jim, this is written by a saint who is still living..... he's 95 and I saw him, around four months ago ~ still living on his own without any outside help. Maybe this will help you to see what I believe, since I agree 100% with Mr. Crosby's article.

Regeneration and Conversion - Roland

Regeneration and Conversion Regeneration and conversion are Bible words. Both words identify a spiritual work in the child of God. However, they do not refer to the same thing. Regeneration Regeneration is wholly of God. It is the Holy Spirit’s quickening work whereby spiritual life is given to...

letgodbetrue.com

 

[Red Baker]

I think we need to be very careful about ever assuming that we have any right or authority to decide when or if another person is baptized.

I agree~being baptized truly can be done, with faith and a desire to repent, and willing to change one's course to be willing to follow the word of God.

But to fellowship with other believers, the demands become greater, even though patience is shown toward new converts, knowing that they are babes in Christ. They will make many mistakes as we all did. We must allow them to live according to their own conscience and not by ours.

 

[JIM]

Jim, this is written by a saint who is still living..... he's 95 and I saw him, around four months ago ~ still living on his own without any outside help. Maybe this will help you to see what I believe, since I agree 100% with Mr. Crosby's article.

Regeneration and Conversion - Roland

Regeneration and Conversion Regeneration and conversion are Bible words. Both words identify a spiritual work in the child of God. However, they do not refer to the same thing. Regeneration Regeneration is wholly of God. It is the Holy Spirit’s quickening work whereby spiritual life is given to...

letgodbetrue.com

Neither regeneration nor conversion are words that appear very often in the Bible. We really must look to the rest of scripture to see what is really meant by them. In the case of regeneration, I think it generally equated with the new birth, being born again. I think what is presented there concerning conversion is more closely identified in the NT as sanctification. I do not think that conversion is typically considered long drawn-out process. Romans 16:5 and 1 Tim 3:6 speaks of the convert, one who has converted, one for whom it may be said engaged in a conversion. I such cases it suggests something that has been accomplished rather then something that goes on for long periods of time. I prefer my view of conversion as the turn-about from being lost to being saved. But I understand, that may be just me.

 

[Red Baker]

It does depart from the gospel of Jesus Christ, if repentance is not necessary to recieve the righteous faith of Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Ghada, there is not work on our part for us to do, for us to receive the spiritual blessings granted to God's elect through Jesus' obedience and faith.

That being said, those born of God, and who come under the sound of the gospel (which most do, but not all) will repent and we be baptized into Jesus Christ's faith and religion. If you, or any other person, put certain works on a person in order for them to be born again, then you, and they, have departed from the truth of the gospel of Christ. Galatians chapters 1-5:4

Repentance for conversion is not a work, but only ceasing of works.

First, repentance is a gift granted to God's elect.

2nd Timothy 2:25​

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”

Repentance is work of a new man within every born again child of God! Only they desire and can truly repent, the unregenerate cannot~impossible.

You said: "only ceasing of works." I have no ideal what you mean by this, and maybe neither do you.

The gospel command to repent is to become born by His Spirit.

Prove it~give me scripture (s) to prove what you are teaching. What you are teaching goes against so many scriptures.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

A carnal mind (those still in flesh) is not subject unto the word of God, neither indeed can be! Is God testimony concerning all men that are in the flesh, without having the Spirit of God living in their new man.

There is no believing with God before repenting toward God.

What you should be saying is this: There is no believing, or repenting toward God without first being born of God! You are very confused, and should not be teaching other people, you need to first learn the scriptures.

Ghada, if a person repents, then that person already believes! No one repents and then believes, that makes no sense ~ of good spiritual sense is not common anymore!

I'm coming back to finish this one post.

 

[Mr GLee]

It does depart from the gospel of Jesus Christ, if repentance is not necessary to recieve the righteous faith of Jesus Christ unto salvation.

I've already given the Scriptures preaching preaching to salvation.

There is not one thing any person could do to save themselves Dead is dead as a door nail . I would think not by the hands a will of dying mankind the peanut galley as if he who has no ends needed something from the clay he is forming.

The word repent must be defined Repentance . . . . acknowledging and having sorrow for past actions, in a living hope of bring change to change. It can bring comfort because it allows people to feel forgiven and to have a new born again start.

The work of two turnings. Repentings

Jeremiah 31:17-19King James Version And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, (turn one) and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that(turn two) I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

The power to repent the calling back by the work of there first love of the father yoked with them and do the first works believe God, empowered by His Holy Spirit. And not not dying mankind seen the Nicolaitans .Comforting both the Father and his children .the group hug

Sort of like what I call the parable of the waiting father who saw his son from a far off by faith (power of God) and went running to welcome into his son to the eternal home.

The other son rejected the faith power to turn and receive comfort he remained a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke:

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (first works of Christ ) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

In that way the words "turn back" or "turned back" spaeks of the power of repentance used that way 68 times.

 

[Arial]

When? Before being born? I don't think so. So how long after birth does that happen?

Who said anything about before being born? It is the condition they are born in. What God does with infants who die is known only to God. One of the reasons you get so mixed up and messed up is that you deny so many of the doctrines of traditional Christianity. If you didn't, the "answers" would be right in front of your face. That is also what makes it impossible to have a decent, profitable conversation on these topics. You are traveling a completely different road than I am. Parallel, but never meeting.

Where did Adam's power to do that come from? God? Again, I don't think so.

It was Adam's action that caused it. You can't have it both ways (man is responsible for his own sinful actions but when it is convenient to attack something you have no understanding of or belief in, God is responsible).

The spirit God forms in them is NOT DEAD!!

No one said it was. (S)pirit and spirit are not referring to the same thing. Neither are spirit and spiritual. No one is born of the Spirit until the Spirit rebirths them. (John 3) What you have is everyone being born of the Spirit, then when they sin, that Spirit dying? and the person needing to be reborn of the Spirit who died when they sinned, again.

It is indeed separate from the flesh. Our flesh, i.e., our bodies, come from our parents. Our spirits come from God.

Our flesh comes through our parents, not from our parents. God creates our flesh too, by means of second cause---the order he established. Otherwise what you have is a world of creatures populated by creatures who create. Our spirit is simply the life that is in us and life comes from God, is given by God, and none other than God. He created us to be a living being. Our spirit is also the complete makeup of who we are. Not instead of our flesh, but with our flesh. That is why our dead bodies will reunite with our spirit at the resurrection. The us of us is a unity, not bits and pieces.

 

[JIM]

I agree~being baptized truly can be done, with faith and a desire to repent, and willing to change one's course to be willing to follow the word of God.

Faith and repentance precede baptism.

 

[JIM]

Who said anything about before being born? It is the condition they are born in. What God does with infants who die is known only to God. One of the reasons you get so mixed up and messed up is that you deny so many of the doctrines of traditional Christianity.

Sorry, but Calvinism is not tradictional Christianity.

If you didn't, the "answers" would be right in front of your face. That is also what makes it impossible to have a decent, profitable conversation on these topics. You are traveling a completely different road than I am. Parallel, but never meeting.

It was Adam's action that caused it. You can't have it both ways (man is responsible for his own sinful actions but when it is convenient to attack something you have no understanding of or belief in, God is responsible).

No one said it was. (S)pirit and spirit are not referring to the same thing. Neither are spirit and spiritual. No one is born of the Spirit until the Spirit rebirths them. (John 3) What you have is everyone being born of the Spirit, then when they sin, that Spirit dying? and the person needing to be reborn of the Spirit who died when they sinned, again.

Our flesh comes through our parents, not from our parents. God creates our flesh too, by means of second cause---the order he established. Otherwise what you have is a world of creatures populated by creatures who create. Our spirit is simply the life that is in us and life comes from God, is given by God, and none other than God. He created us to be a living being. Our spirit is also the complete makeup of who we are. Not instead of our flesh, but with our flesh. That is why our dead bodies will reunite with our spirit at the resurrection. The us of us is a unity, not bits and pieces.

I am not going to even try to respond to that. There is almost nothing there that I could possibly agree with.

 

[Arial]

Sorry, but Calvinism is not tradictional Christianity.

Oh yes it is. It is exactly what came out of the Reformation when Protestants broke away from the corruption of apostolic (NT foundation)teaching in the RCC. They broke away when the RCC refused to reform themselves.

I am not going to even try to respond to that.

That is nothing new. It is our MO.

There is almost nothing there that I could possibly agree with.

That is not news either. Last I checked, Bible interpretation is not based on solaJIM. The fact that you disagree does not make you right.

 

[Red Baker]

A completely false translation, that is as bad as saying the Word was a god, rather than the Word was God.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus Christ's blood was not shed, because our sins were already forgiven.

Ghada, I never said for is used because of every time~the context will determine the sense in which words are to be understood~not the Greek, for men can used such things (as the Greek, and other translations until they find something to agree with them) to push their agenda, not saying Jim does this on purpose, but many do. Btw the way, prove to me in another thread that the KJV is a false translation,.

Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Ghada, that's exactly what I beleive and teach.

God's granted repentance is granted unto His life, faith, conversion, and salvation by Jesus Christ.

Not sure what you are attempting to say.

Living unlike before by sinning less than before, is not God's granted repentance from all past works, but is only man's own gradual repentance in their own good time and will.

Sorry, you must interpret what you are trying to say, before I can scripturally give my comments

Anyone doing unrighteousness, or not doing the good we know to do at the time, has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

Not true....I would say anyone living under the power of sin, or, their life is known to be a life of not serving God, but sin, these folks are not of God.

All saints in Christ Jesus perform the same as He did in the flesh, enduring all temptations, trials, and tribulations of this life unto the end.

Saints labor to do so, yet sin is present even in their best efforts and most holy moments!

No unrighteous person is made righteous by someone else doing righteousness. Even as no righteous person is made a sinner by someone else sinning.

Coming back to address this is depth.

.

 

[JIM]

Oh yes it is. It is exactly what came out of the Reformation when Protestants broke away from the corruption of apostolic (NT foundation)teaching in the RCC. They broke away when the RCC refused to reform themselves.

That was 1500 years after the apostles teaching which got terribly distorted by the likes of Augustine and His Manichaeism and Calvin picked up on it.

That is nothing new. It is our MO.

That is your MO.

That is not news either. Last I checked, Bible interpretation is not based on solaJIM. The fact that you disagree does not make you right.

I understand that bible interpretation is not based on sola JIM. Too bad you don't understand bible interpretation is not based on sola Arial.

 

[Red Baker]

No unrighteous person is made righteous by someone else doing righteousness. Even as no righteous person is made a sinner by someone else sinning.

Ghada, you need to step back and reconsider your words here, for you have just rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that puts you under the curse of God, a place you do not want to place yourself, but you have seemly without any fear of doing so. So many places we could start, yet we must keep it short to begin with.

2nd Corinthians 5:21~"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."​

Here is one of the plainest statements of justification, reconciliation, and salvation in the Bible. This is a legal verse, which does not address the eternal, vital, practical, or final phases of salvation. There is no possibility or potential in this transaction, for God purposed it and did it (Eph 1:11).

Legally speaking, reconciliation was completed by Jesus Christ at Calvary (Romans 4:25; 5:10). With the provision provided being the sinless life of Jesus Christ to secured the eternal redemption of God's elect. Legal transactions are in God’s mind, but as binding as any other transaction (Romans 5:12-19). God viewed the elect from eternity as reconciled, but He actually provided the price at the cross. How else could he possibly be a friend of such men as Abraham, if God did not viewed them as already eternally reconciled? He could not. I fully understand that the elect were vitally reconciled at regeneration, yet only because they were given grace in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Please consider the two incredible sides of the most fantastic legal settlement made in the world’s history.

First, God put our sins on sinless Jesus Christ, Who then died as a Substitute for them (Isaiah 53:4-12; Daniel 9:24; Romans 5:6-10,15-21; 1st Cor 15:3; Hebrews 9:15; 10:10-14; Ist Peter 2:24; 3:18; Revelation 1:5; 5:9)!

Second, God put the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ on us, by choosing us acceptable in Him (Acts 10:34-35; Romans 3:21-26; 5:15-21; 8:3-4; Ist Cor 1:30; Ephesians 1:3-6; Philippians 3:9)!

So many other places we could go to such as:

Galatians 3:13​

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”

Isaiah 53~Who hath believed our report? (Ghada does not!) and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Time would absolutely fail me to keep going, and we have not even got started, to cover this glorious subject concerning Jesus being made sin for us ~ his sheep, elect, etc.

Ghada, you have no hope if you continue to reject this blessed truth, you shall die in your sins.

 

[Red Baker]

Very few people preach a non-hypocritical OSAS, untainted by any works necessary to prove anything. They preach eternal salvation and justification by faith alone, with no condition on any works to 'prove' their faith nor salvation. In fact, a very few even preach that unconditional eternal security in Christ, even if they forsake the faith they once had. They say that if anyone ever believed in this life, then they are forever secured a part in the blessed resurrection of the sons of God.

Ghada, I have trouble laboring to follow you words, maybe it is just me, so if I do not interpret you correctly forgive me, it will not be intentionally done.

I agree with what you are saying to a degree, yet, we must be careful not be guilty of adding our own convictions upon other people's life and faith, so as to not offend one of God's little ones.

You said: "They say that if anyone ever believed in this life, then they are forever secured a part in the blessed resurrection of the sons of God." If works do not follow where there is a time for works to follow, then that faith is no better than devils, who believed and trembled. But, I would be slow to condemned little faith, and would never measure others by what I believe and live by, that could be very hypocritical in doing so.

God gives no time nor justification for transgressions. His godly repentance is from all transgressions now today, not some some time later at our own convenience.

I never hinted at that, but will say this~we cannot expect new born babe to all at once stop everything and change and live like they have been in the faith for years, that's impossible, and only judgmental folks demand such things from others. Young believers will make many mistakes on their way to being matured Christians, to think otherwise, is being a rank Pharisees of the first class.

Unconditional total surrender of His enemies to His Son, is commanded to find mercy, forgiveness, and reconciliation with God by His Son.

Wrong, you are secretly pushing another gospel! This is true for all who desire God's best for them in this life, but sad to say, few ever do this to the degree they should, including myself and maybe even you, which I cannot say, since I do not know you.

Those walking in His name, and yet transgessing His law with the world, are now His enemies naming His name.

If anyone naming Christ wants to take some time to repent of all disobedience as commanded, then that certainly is their right and choice as freewill creatures created in God's image. But as with all the world's enemies of God, it's only His longsuffereing mercy, that we don't die in our transgression unto everlasting shame.

I may agree with your first quote, if you explain yourself more, and explain what do you consider transgressing his law ~ for this may mean one thing to one person and yet to another person may believe they have liberty do certain things, etc. Wearing pants; going to certain movies; playing certain card games; drinking in moderation; and a host of other things that could be mentioned. I'm reminded of what Paul wrote:

Colossians 2:18-23~"Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

 

[JIM]

Going back to the OP -----

The context in Romans 4 is about being newborn babes in Christ: It is when the sinner is newly forgiven of all past works and forgotten by God, as though they were never done:

I don't think the intent of Romans 4 is about being newborn babes in Christ. Paul uses Abraham to present his point. Abraham was certainly no "newborn babe". And it is not that God does not want us to obey. In fact, if one were to obey perfectly, there would be no need for justification. But no one, except for Jesus Christ, has ever or will ever obey perfectly (Rom 3:23; 5:12). Therefore, all who sin, which is in fact, absolutely everyone deserves to be punished for that sin, and the just punishment is complete separation from God forever, that is, eternal condemnation. So what is to be done? How can God, whose holiness demands punishment for all sin, do anything but comply to that demand? That is where God's mercy and grace are brought to bear. He sent His only Son to earth to share in the flesh and blood of humanity to become the perfect sacrifice and take the punishment upon Himself for the sins of the world (Heb 2 and elsewhere).

Now not only did God use Abraham to present his point in Romans 4, but He says there, that But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification" (4:23-25). That is not just newborn babes, that is for all who believe in God.

For those who believe and are forgiven their trespasses, that is, justified, that is not just for past sins. To be justified is a state of being in God's eyes. Those who believe are forgiven. It is not an on-again-off-again situation of saved, then sinned and lost, then forgiven and saved, then sinned and lost on and on and on. We are justified. We are forgiven. We are those who believe in God, all of those who believe in God.

So what is the "not through the law" (v,13)? As I said, if one were to obey the law perfectly, there would be no need for forgiveness, no need for justification. But no has ever done that or will ever do that. And having failed to keep even one point of the law, one is condemned as having failed all of it (2:10). After that, there is no amount of "works" that can be done to make up for even that one failure.

Now James' point is that even if there is no amount of works that can be done to make up for even that one sin, that does not mean that works aren't important. So important in fact that without works, it is clear that there is no faith. To believe in God is to do, to the best of our ability, what God says. And as an aside here, God, recognizing just how hard it is to "do our best", gives us the Holy Spirit to help us and improve on "doing our best". That is called sanctification.

I'll stop with that.

 

[JIM]

Red, Ghada said

No unrighteous person is made righteous by someone else doing righteousness. Even as no righteous person is made a sinner by someone else sinning.

He is absolutely correct here. There are some that think that Jesus was so good, that it made up for everyone else's failures. Jesus only did exactly what God required of Him as a human being. It was not more that God has asked and required of us as human beings. There wasn't any extra in what Jesus did; there wasn't any "above and beyond", there wasn't any "more than enough". What Jesus accomplished in living the perfect life was to become qualified as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

 

[Arial]

That was 1500 years after the apostles teaching which got terribly distorted by the likes of Augustine and His Manichaeism and Calvin picked up on it.

The things that you think Augustine and Calvin distorted are the very things that the apostles taught and that the RCC corrupted. You apparently have chosen to follow the heresies of Pelagius and what attempted to tone that down without destroying it, semi-Pelagianism . Before you claim that is not true or that it isn't true because you know nothing about it, read about those heresies.