Reconciling Two?

[prism]

Here are two passages I have trouble with, how would you reconcile them?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Matthew 11:25 (KJV) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

If God is not willing that any perish, why does He hide certain things from certain people?
What is the best explanation without there being a contradiction on God's part?

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Here are two passages I have trouble with, how would you reconcile them?

[Insert text from 2 Peter 3:9 and Matthew 11:25.]

If God is not willing that any perish, why does he hide certain things from certain people? What is the best explanation without there being a contradiction on God's part?

The conflict disappears once the context of 1 Timothy 2:4 is properly understood—which is a rather bold statement, I realize, but hear me out. (Interestingly, I just addressed this passage yesterday on Twitter when a Provisionist tried to use it to prove Calvinism is inconsistent with scripture.)

The context of the phrase "all people" in the fourth verse is defined in the first two verses. "When I say that God wants to save all people," Paul essentially states, "I mean that includes kings and all who are in authority." This reading is supported by Peter’s words in Acts 10:34: "God does not show favoritism in dealing with people, but in every nation the person who fears him and does what is right is welcomed before him"—including kings and those who are in authority.

Does this limit the word all? No, it defines it—namely, all people without distinction. This fits with how scripture often speaks of God's saving work, not as universalism but as a sovereign calling of people from every nation, tribe, and tongue.

 

[Mr GLee]

The conflict disappears once the context of 1 Timothy 2:4 is properly understood—which is a rather bold statement, I realize, but hear me out. (Interestingly, I just addressed this passage yesterday on Twitter when a Provisionist tried to use it to prove Calvinism is inconsistent with scripture.)

The context of the phrase "all people" in the fourth verse is defined in the first two verses. "When I say that God wants to save all people," Paul essentially states, "I mean that includes kings and all who are in authority." This reading is supported by Peter’s words in Acts 10:34: "God does not show favoritism in dealing with people, but in every nation the person who fears him and does what is right is welcomed before him"—including kings and those who are in authority.

Does this limit the word all? No, it defines it—namely, all people without distinction. This fits with how scripture often speaks of God's saving work, not as universalism but as a sovereign calling of people from every nation, tribe, and tongue.

All people means "as many as" the father gave the power to become saved, they alone can come

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

As many as denotes a parable in is in view

 

[prism]

The conflict disappears once the context of 1 Timothy 2:4 is properly understood—which is a rather bold statement, I realize, but hear me out. (Interestingly, I just addressed this passage yesterday on Twitter when a Provisionist tried to use it to prove Calvinism is inconsistent with scripture.)

The context of the phrase "all people" in the fourth verse is defined in the first two verses. "When I say that God wants to save all people," Paul essentially states, "I mean that includes kings and all who are in authority." This reading is supported by Peter’s words in Acts 10:34: "God does not show favoritism in dealing with people, but in every nation the person who fears him and does what is right is welcomed before him"—including kings and those who are in authority.

Does this limit the word all? No, it defines it—namely, all people without distinction. This fits with how scripture often speaks of God's saving work, not as universalism but as a sovereign calling of people from every nation, tribe, and tongue.

I may be a bit dense about this, but how did 1 Tim 2:4 enter this discussion? How is it related?
Mt 11:25 speaks of God hiding certain things; 2Pet 3:9 speaks of God unwilling that any perish.

 

[Josheb]

Here are two passages I have trouble with, how would you reconcile them?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Matthew 11:25 (KJV) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

If God is not willing that any perish, why does He hide certain things from certain people?
What is the best explanation without there being a contradiction on God's part?

Do you have children?

If so, have you ever wished them well....... knowing they are going to make mistakes, mistakes so bad the mistake might prove fatal? Have you ever withheld information from your child because you knew that either the disclosure would be meaningless and ineffective, the disclosure would be taken as an offense and discarded, or the disclosure would make things worse, not better?

The solution to this op's inquiry lies in not pitting the verses against one another. God can have more than one desire. He can desire none perish AND ALSO desire to exterminate those who have denied His existence, mocked him, and acted as if they and not He are God. It is, in fact, surprising He permits them to draw breath sufficient to must their idolatry.

 

[Arial]

The conflict disappears once the context of 1 Timothy 2:4 is properly understood—which is a rather bold statement, I realize, but hear me out. (Interestingly, I just addressed this passage yesterday on Twitter when a Provisionist tried to use it to prove Calvinism is inconsistent with scripture.)

The context of the phrase "all people" in the fourth verse is defined in the first two verses. "When I say that God wants to save all people," Paul essentially states, "I mean that includes kings and all who are in authority." This reading is supported by Peter’s words in Acts 10:34: "God does not show favoritism in dealing with people, but in every nation the person who fears him and does what is right is welcomed before him"—including kings and those who are in authority.

Does this limit the word all? No, it defines it—namely, all people without distinction. This fits with how scripture often speaks of God's saving work, not as universalism but as a sovereign calling of people from every nation, tribe, and tongue.

I was going to present that but see you already have. Context is everything in such difficult passages. It will rather quickly take the apparent contradiction in Scripture right out of it. Without the context defining "all" the OP shows a direct contradiction in the two scriptures. Nevertheless, the 1 Tim scripture is always used out of context to deny election and predestination----no matter how many times the meaning with the context is shown to the one misusing the Scripture. It always also denied or ignored that they have created a contradiction.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I may be a bit dense about this, but how did 1 Tim 2:4 enter this discussion? How is it related?
Mt 11:25 speaks of God hiding certain things; 2Pet 3:9 speaks of God unwilling that any perish.

It entered the discussion for three reasons: (a) it is both relevant to and answers the question you were asking regarding Matthew 11:25; (b) it was fresh on my mind, since I had just dealt with it the previous day; (c) it strikes me as a more challenging passage than 2 Peter 3:9 (which is much easier to answer).

If, for any reason, you feel it is not relevant or somehow doesn't answer your question, please feel free to elaborate and I would be happy to engage.

 

[Mr GLee]

I may be a bit dense about this, but how did 1 Tim 2:4 enter this discussion? How is it related?
Mt 11:25 speaks of God hiding certain things; 2Pet 3:9 speaks of God unwilling that any perish.

I would offer.

2 Peter 3 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Not willing. Not of his will. But all he has given to the Son the riches of His faith as a labor of His love. . . they as a result are empower by his mighty faith to rise to new born again life

Mathew 1125At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Without parables Christ spoke not giving his us understanding the spiritual unseen. . to the powerless faithless

 

[Eleanor]

Here are two passages I have trouble with, how would you reconcile them?
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter is writing to believers, regarding the elect who have not yet come to repentance and who would perish if Christ came too soon.
In the context of the whole NT, "any" refers to the elect.

Matthew 11:25 (KJV) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
If God is not willing that any perish, why does He hide certain things from certain people?
What is the best explanation without there being a contradiction on God's part?

Dt 29:29. . .God has a secret will and a revealed will.

His revealed will is not always done, but his secret will is always done.
Man mistakenly refers to God's secret will (Dt 29:29) as his "permissive" will.
Nothing is contrary to God's secret will, including disobedience to his revealed will.

God's revealed will to Pharaoh (Ex 7:2, "Let my people go") was not done, but his secret will was done (Ex 7:3, "I will harden his heart. . .so that he will not listen to you.")
It was God's secret will that Pharaoh disobey his revealed will.

God's secret will is the sole determiner of all that happens (Isa 8:10, 14:24, 46:10); man determines nothing (Da 4:35, Ps 33:9-10, Pr 16:9, 19:21, 20:24).

 

[Arial]

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The answer is in the previous context and in who Peter is writing this letter to.

1-8




This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter is dealing with a specific issue. Scoffers attempting take away their hope of Christ's return in judgement and restoration. Given what follows concerning godly living, it would appear that the teaching claimed it did not matter how they lived.

And he is writing to believers. So the "you", and the "any" and the "all" refer to believers, not all without exception. And we know from the full counsel of God on the subject, two things in particular. No one ever thwarts God's will, he always accomplishes what he purposes to accomplish. And not all without exception are saved.

We also know that those he foreknows, he predestines, and those he predestines he calls, and those he calls he justified and glorifies.

So what to them and us may seem like a delay is not a delay. It is the gospel going forth to gather all the sheep of his flock that he knew before the foundation of the world and is giving to the Son.

 

[prism]

Have you ever withheld information from your child because you knew that either the disclosure would be meaningless and ineffective, the disclosure would be taken as an offense and discarded, or the disclosure would make things worse, not better?

Why would a Father withhold information if it meant his son's eternal destruction?

 

[Papa Smurf]

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hi Prism, I think that a big part of the problem can be quickly resolved by understanding the following about v9 above (I'm copying part of something about this that I wrote in another thread, just FYI).

The entire Epistle of 2 Peter was addressed to the saints & the saints to be, alone, and 2 Peter 3:9 is also part of a Chapter and a Passage in the Epistle that were both written to/for the same group(s) by the Apostle.

IOW, the "us-ward", "any" and "all" of v9 refer to those of us who either are or who will be believers, only, NOT to all of the reprobate, as well.

Finally, what I find to be one of the strongest arguments about this understanding of v9 and who, then, it was written to/for is this, why would our omniscient, omnipresent God, who knows the end from the beginning, be "longsuffering" towards anyone who He ALREADY KNOWS will never come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

Blessings to you in Christ!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - this was a blind post, so if the points that I just made have already been discussed, I apologize. I've gotta go right now, but I hope to return later this evening to read the entire thread (and post something more if I have something more to add ).

 

[prism]

The entire Epistle of 2 Peter was addressed to the saints & the saints to be, alone, and 2 Peter 3:9 is also part of a Chapter and a Passage in the Epistle that were both written to/for the same group(s) by the Apostle.

Thanks, P.S., could you please give your rundown comparing 2Pet 3:9 with Mt 11:25?, thanks

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

An analogy regarding 2 Peter 3:9:

Imagine that you have called a staff meeting. As you stand looking over the people gathered in the board room, you announce, "We cannot afford to have anyone miss this information, so before I get to what I have to tell you, I need to know if everyone is here." Obviously you are not asking if all eight billion people on the planet are present in the board room; you're certainly not asking if all people who have existed, do exist, and will ever exist are present. The "anyone" and "everyone" are directly related to the "you" being addressed: your staff members.

 

[prism]

Please, no more 2Peter 3:9 without dealing with Matthew 11:25. The purpose of this thread is to deal with those two verses.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Please, no more 2Peter 3:9 without dealing with Matthew 11:25. The purpose of this thread is to deal with those two verses.

You had asked, "If God is not willing that any perish, why does he hide certain things from certain people?"

Please specify exactly how the answers thus far have not answered your question.

 

[Josheb]

Why would a Father withhold information if it meant his son's eternal destruction?

Bad question (it's a red herring).

It is not the withholding of information that "means" eternal destruction. Besides, you already know the answer to that question (so am I to conclude posts 1 and 11 are some sort of thought experiment or mock conversation in which the point will later be disclosed?). If that is the case, then let's establish a basic foundation for this discussion. Answer the following:

What is God's purpose creating creation?
What is it that causes a person's destruction?

 

[Eleanor]

Please, no more 2Peter 3:9 without dealing with Matthew 11:25. The purpose of this thread is to deal with those two verses.

You assume that "any" refers to all mankind instead of to the elect to whom Peter was writing.

 

[prism]

You had asked, "If God is not willing that any perish, why does he hide certain things from certain people?"

Please specify exactly how the answers thus far have not answered your question.

Which answers? Most of the answers have assumed I don’t understand that 2Pet 3:9 is referring to the elect instead of comparing it with Mt 11:25.

 

[prism]

You assume that "any" refers to all mankind instead of to the elect to whom Peter was writing.

And you’re assuming that’s what I assume, well I don’t!