Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[3 Resurrections]

Invalid correlation.
The Pharisees went by tradition and hated Jesus.

Where's your proof that those who produced these lexicons did the same>

I am not saying that those who produce lexicons are similar to the hypocritical Pharisees. I am saying that not all the kinds of technical expertise which can be achieved through meticulous study alone will necessarily lead one to the truth on a given matter. It takes the Holy Spirit giving illumination of the meaning behind that knowledge. And we all have access to that One Spirit which "leads us into all truth" if we are in Christ.

 

[Fred]

I am not saying that those who produce lexicons are similar to the hypocritical Pharisees. I am saying that not all the kinds of technical expertise which can be achieved through meticulous study will necessarily lead one to the truth on a given matter. It takes the Holy Spirit giving illumination of the meaning behind that knowledge.

But not in contradiction to what the words mean.
Plenty of Unitarians engage in this tactic.

 

[3 Resurrections]

But not in contradiction to what the words mean.
Plenty of Unitarians engage in this tactic.

It is not me that is introducing contradictions for what the word "perish" means. You need to address the scriptures given in @Hobie's original #1 post regarding the destruction of the wicked dead in the judgment, as well as the texts I have listed above in post # 59 which speak of how the souls and bodies of mankind achieve immortality.

 

[Fred]

It is not me that is introducing contradictions for what the word "perish" means.

First sentence, post 53.

You need to address the scriptures given in @Hobie's original #1 post regarding the destruction of the wicked dead in the judgment,

post #2

as well as the texts I have listed above in post # 59 which speak of how the souls and bodies of mankind achieve immortality.

My argument at the end of post 52 went ignored.


This is tiresome.
When your ready to see and deal with the evidence I supplied, let me know.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Revelation 21:4
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away. (NASB)

If being snuffed out of existence is true then the unsaved receive the same blessings given by God to the saved in that they (the unsaved) will no longer have any tears, they will no longer experience death, they will no longer mourn or cry or experience any kind of pain.
If it is argued that the punishment for them is that they won't be conscious of the blessings they are missing then this isn't really being punished for they are not even aware of it. I've actually heard from unbelievers that they look forward to being nonexistent because they won't feel any pain and they don't care about feeling anything.

This Revelation 21:4 text is not describing the conditions in heaven for the saints. It is describing the conditions in the New Heavens and New Earth with the New Jerusalem - which we currently occupy. It is describing what happened after "the beginning of sorrows" (Matthew 24:8), which took place leading up to the Great Tribulation of AD 66-70 . That entire period of first-century turmoil experienced a surge in physical catastrophes world-wide that culminated in the destruction of the Old Jerusalem with the end of those predicted sorrows. We live at present in the New Jerusalem conditions of the NHNE, in an age subsequent to the disasters which Christ foretold for His own generation.

There are flaws in your "evidence".

 

[Fred]

This Revelation 21:4 text is not describing the conditions in heaven for the saints. It is describing the conditions in the New Heavens and New Earth with the New Jerusalem

This still dodges the fact that if the unsaved were blipped out of existence they would not have to worry about the same things believers are blessed with in that they no longer have to experienced.
They (the unsaved) would be blessed with the same thing.

There are flaws in your "evidence".

No, in yours.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This still dodges the fact that if the unsaved were blipped out of existence they would not have to worry about the same things believers are blessed with in that they no longer have to experienced.
They (the unsaved) would be blessed with the same thing.

Do you even realize the significance of this statement? You are saying that non-existence for the wicked is no different than living face-to-face with our Creator in fully-restored fellowship. This is a total insult to God and the blessings He can bestow on His resurrected ones living in His presence. It is most certainly NOT the same thing.

 

[Fred]

Do you even realize the significance of this statement? You are saying that non-existence for the wicked is no different than living face-to-face with our Creator in fully-restored fellowship. This is a total insult to God and the blessings He can bestow on His resurrected ones living in His presence. It is most certainly NOT the same thing.

Repeating myself again.

From post 52
If being snuffed out of existence is true then the unsaved receive the same blessings given by God to the saved in that they (the unsaved) will no longer have any tears, they will no longer experience death, they will no longer mourn or cry or experience any kind of pain.
If it is argued that the punishment for them is that they won't be conscious of the blessings they are missing then this isn't really being punished for they are not even aware of it. I've actually heard from unbelievers that they look forward to being nonexistent because they won't feel any pain and they don't care about feeling anything.

 

[3 Resurrections]

From post 52
If being snuffed out of existence is true then the unsaved receive the same blessings given by God to the saved in that they (the unsaved) will no longer have any tears, they will no longer experience death, they will no longer mourn or cry or experience any kind of pain.
If it is argued that the punishment for them is that they won't be conscious of the blessings they are missing then this isn't really being punished for they are not even aware of it. I've actually heard from unbelievers that they look forward to being nonexistent because they won't feel any pain and they don't care about feeling anything.

If this text in Revelation 21:4 is not even talking about the eternal state, then we are discussing apples and oranges. This is your line of argument based on your own opinion of what this text means.

And as you yourself have already mentioned above, our opinions are basically worthless when we have clear scripture texts that speak of the fate of the wicked after death, such as the one in Isaiah 26:13-19 that I have mentioned above. This text clearly delineates a difference in the expected fate for the physical bodies of the wicked dead versus that of the righteous dead. The wicked do not bodily rise from the grave to experience anything at all. The righteous do bodily rise from the grave. The blessings accompanying their resurrection to eternal life is described as "in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore."

 

[Fred]

If this text in Revelation 21:4 is not even talking about the eternal state, then we are discussing apples and oranges.

It accurately describes what the eternal state will be.

 

[Rella]

This still dodges the fact that if the unsaved were blipped out of existence they would not have to worry about the same things believers are blessed with in that they no longer have to experienced.
They (the unsaved) would be blessed with the same thing.


No, in yours.

Not getting in the middle between you but I want clarity from your beliefs, so I can follow along better. Are we to understand that you feel that all non-Christian / unsaved people (leave the Jews out of this for a minute)should be suffering for an eternity in some manner? That to perish or cease to exist is too good for them?

Won't you allow for some exception for people like Mother Teresa who, while at times did not even believe in God, faithfully fulfilled what she thought she ought to be doing with her life in help and service to a lost people? Yet without a true Christian belief?.

Did Mother Theresa believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ? | Christian Faith

The whole world knows about Mother Theresa and her amazing work of showing love and mercy to the poorest of the poor in Calcutta. This was an amazing humanitarian work for which she was honored all over the world. Mother Theresa of course was a Roman Catholic nun. She was praised by Catholics...

christian-faith.com

If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. … What God is in your mind you must accept.
Mother Teresa: Her People and Her Work, by Desmond Doig, (Harper & Row, 1976), p.156. Dated: 1976

 

[Fred]

Are we to understand that you feel that all non-Christian / unsaved people (leave the Jews out of this for a minute)should be suffering for an eternity in some manner?

Yes

That to perish or cease to exist is too good for them?

They will perish, but not cease to exist.

God decides what is good.

An infinite punishment is meted out by an infinite holy God.

One sin is a hideous and disgusting attack on who God is. Jesus, in His mercy, paid a terrible price for sins.

Won't you allow for some exception for people like Mother Teresa who, while at times did not even believe in God, faithfully fulfilled what she thought she ought to be doing with her life in help and service to a lost people? Yet without a true Christian belief?.

If one doesn't believe God then they stand in condemnation.
"He that believeth not is condemned already." (John 3:18)

 

[Rella]

Yes



They will perish, but not cease to exist.

God decides what is good.

An infinite punishment is meted out by an infinite holy God.

One sin is a hideous and disgusting attack on who God is. Jesus, in His mercy, paid a terrible price for sins.



If one doesn't believe God then they stand in condemnation.
"He that believeth not is condemned already." (John 3:18)

Just one small question then I am done....

Thanks for answering BTW.

Are you a Calvinist? Do you believe in what John Calvin said ?

 

[Fred]

Just one small question then I am done....

Thanks for answering BTW.

Sure. No problem.

Are you a Calvinist? Do you believe in what John Calvin said ?

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/are-you-arminian-calvinist-or-other.33/#post-157

 

[Rella]

Sure. No problem.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/are-you-arminian-calvinist-or-other.33/#post-157

Ditto

 

[EarlyActs]

I am consciously tormented by living under this regime.

 

[Hobie]

Regular day and night is still going on during this time of torment. That means we are talking about a location on our planet.

This is not the afterlife condition for the wicked, because the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast and the False Prophet (the Rev. 13 Beast from the Land) were to be thrown "alive" into this Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20). The Lake of Fire was called the "second death" because it was the second time that Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed since its first death under the Babylonian destruction in 586 BC. Both times the city was burned, and some say on the same day of the year. Both times Death and Hell (the Grave) descended upon the city and overcame its tormented inhabitants (as in Isaiah 28:14-19 and Revelation20:14).

Also, this torment is being experienced by these individuals directly in the eyesight and presence ("enopion") of these holy angels and of the Lamb. In other words, these angels and the Lamb are in the same location as those being tormented. This is not describing the conditions of the afterlife for the wicked, because there is no "afterlife" existence of the wicked dead. Their fate is to utterly perish in the judgment, which is completely opposite to the destiny of the righteous dead.

The scripture's use of "forever" does not always mean something perpetual with no ending point. As in the case of Isaiah 32:13-15. "Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city: Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens forever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high..." So, in this case, "forever" is a continual condition until a point in time when something occurs to change that continual condition.

The first death is when the person dies and goes to the grave, and all suffer this from since sin came into the world. Now, Christ has the power of resurrection as well as life eternal, so if you believe He will give you the gift of eternal life. If you have suffered death and are in the grave, then He will resurrect you at the first resurrection at the end and raise you up with the living saints up in the air and He will take the saints to heaven.

Now, if you are wicked, when Christ comes at the Second Coming you are slain if you are alive, while those in the grave know nothing. Now, after the 1000 years, all the wicked are raised up from the grave at the second resurrection and now they suffer the second death in the Lake of Fire, and perish along with the devil and his angels. Here is a good site to check out... https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-a...887/t/where-will-we-be-during-the-millennium-

 

[3 Resurrections]

Now, if you are wicked, when Christ comes at the Second Coming you are slain if you are alive, while those in the grave know nothing. Now, after the 1000 years, all the wicked are raised up from the grave at the second resurrection and now they suffer the second death in the Lake of Fire,

Hobie, there is no "second death" for the wicked to die twice physically. That would also break the rule in Hebrews 9:27 where "...it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment." The bodies of the wicked dead never rise from the dust of the grave, once they have physically died that one time. (Isaiah 26:14 tells us this, as well as other scriptures). The soul of the wicked goes before God in the judgment, but since that wicked soul is not in the book of life, it is also destroyed and is never reunited with the body of that wicked individual ever again. We are supposed to fear Him who after death has the power to destroy both body and soul in the grave.

 

[Runningman]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?​

Is ECT referred to even one time in the Old Testament? Seems the answer is no and therefore it wouldn't be something anyone believed in.

 

[Hobie]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?​

Can the breath of God be destroyed?
In Genesis, God breathed into the lifeless clay and Man became a living being. The words “breath” and “wind” and “soul” and “spirit” (both man’s spirit and the Holy Spirit) are all related words. Therein lies the source of the concept of the Imageo Dei (Image of God). So we know that the soul (literally “breath”) survives past the death of the body. We know that some “souls” go on to “eternal life” and others to “eternal punishment”. We know that many things, including DEATH and the GRAVE are ultimately destroyed by being cast into a fiery lake at the end of Revelation (it is irrelevant whether this is literal of symbolic - both reflect a SPIRITUAL reality).

So the question becomes, can this God-breathed “soul” be destroyed? Can the breath of God ever be destroyed?

• If YES, then destruction is eternal, but torment may not be.
• If NO, then eternal punishment lasts as long as eternal life and is a soul’s forever state.

It is a question far above my pay grade and one I am content to trust God to make the RIGHT decision (whatever He decides).

You are not understanding the meaning of the breath of God and then asking the wrong thing. The breath of life, is God bringing to life, in the text of Genesis 2:7 it clearly states that God breathed into the formed man the "breath of life" and man became a living soul. Notice that man did not receive a living soul; he became one, man came to life. The New King James Bible states that "man became a living being" which is even more clear. .Job correlates the usage of breath and the spirit, saying:

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils. Job 27:3

Moses reported that the breath of life was in Adam's nostrils, whereas Job refers to both terms and says that the spirit of the Lord is 'in my nostrils.' Hence, the Hebrew terms of "neshamah" and "rûach" are used here in a similar context it is life itself. According to the Scriptures, all living creatures received life in the same way from God, and are subject to the same fate.

And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field . . . wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 2:19; 7:15

Both man and beast ...have all one breath, so that a man hath no preeminence above the beast. Ecclesiastes 3:19

Since man and beast have one breath, they also die the same way.

For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts; ... as the one dieth, so dieth the other. Ecclesiastes 3:19.

Both man and animals were created from dust. So, when they die they then return again to dust; just the reverse of creation.

...for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

The second thing which happens when a man dies, is that the spirit, or breath of life, returns to God;

...and the spirit shall return unto God, who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

It is what animates us, the life which awakens us, thus notice what Christ says .. I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25