Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[atpollard]

Torture and torment is an INTERPRETATION for (touch stone.)

Ummm … is that not in part because a LITERAL touchstone (a rock used to test for gold by scraping a sample along it and looking for a color change) makes the scripture sound like a crazy person?

Scraping something against a rock is closer to “OUCH” than “DEAD”, so “punishment/pain/torment” seem closer than just “dead/void of life” for a metaphorical meaning of ”touchstone”.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The words of the Bible are properly defined one way, but your confusion insists on something else.

To define the word "perish" as being some kind of eternally-tormented living existence is to twist the language out of all recognition. Something that has perished is not alive in any sense whatever.

 

[Fred]

To define the word "perish" as being some kind of eternally-tormented living existence is to twist the language out of all recognition. Something that has perished is not alive in any sense whatever.

Let's see the lexical backing for your assertion.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Let's see the lexical backing for your assertion.

I don't need to get all high-falutin' to define what "perish" means. We just put our dog down a couple months ago, and that pooch perished in the cremation process. My mom died this past spring at the age of 93, but even though we buried her body, I can tell you that woman will not perish, since she had everlasting life through Christ her Lord.

 

[Fred]

I don't need to get all high falutin' to define what "perish" means.

Says it all.

Carry on in your fairy tales then.

 

[Rella]

I didn't need to supply the proof for this, since @Hobie already gave a substantial list of texts in the very first #1 post, proving that the wicked dead will perish.

The opposite of eternal life for the righteous is not tormented eternal life for the wicked.
The opposite of eternal life for the righteous is an eternal death sentence of destruction for the wicked which is never rescinded.

I don't know why but I find this to be somewhat comforting......I know... weird.

Destruction i.e. Perishing.

Math 10:28
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This would be for all warm blooded people, no matter their sin? Right?

And Rev 20:10
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Would be for those of what we have always called of a demonic nature? Right?

Does anybody have a clue as to what will happen to the spirits that went back to God, when the bodies died....? I don't remember reading anything that says they also will be destroyed.

 

[Fred]

Math 10:28
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

https://messianicapologetics.net/faq/Matthew_10_28.pdf

 

[Josheb]

If death no longer exists, what is the second death? What is death?

The question has the order backwards. Death dies in the second death, not before. If death no longer exists, then there is no third death.

Revelation 20:11-15
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

• The fiery lake is the second death.
• Death is thrown into the fiery lake.
• Death is thrown into the second death.
• The last enemy defeated is death (1 Cor. 15:26).
• Death has been abolished, annulled, made idle, discharged (2 Tim. 1:10).
• Death dies.

No more death once death dies.

Isaiah 28:18
[When the stone is laid in Zion] Your covenant with death will be canceled, and your pact with Sheol will not stand; when the gushing flood passes through, then you will become its trampling ground.

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death...

No more death. Death dies. Death is annulled. Death is destroyed. The alternative is that death is not destroyed, survives the fiery lake and continues to exist in the new heavens and earth - and so might everything else in the fiery lake! If the fiery lake doesn't actually destroy death, then there's no reason to think it destroys Satan or those whose names aren't found in the book of life. Can't be had both ways. If death is not actually dead then everyone lives and the "second death" is just a name that does not mean what it states - the second death is not death at all, and no one dies from it.

But if it is so deadly that even death is destroyed, then everything else tossed in is likewise destroyed. It might take eons but the end is still destruction and the death of death.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Carry on in your fairy tales then.

The wicked do not get everlasting life in Hades, even in a tormented state. That would be a contradiction to the word "perish". Not sure why this seems to be such a problem for you. Only those who are God's own are promised eternal life.

 

[Fred]

The wicked do not get everlasting life in Hades, even in a tormented state. That would be a contradiction to the word "perish".

In your make-believe definitions.

 

[3 Resurrections]

In your make-believe definitions.

No, in my comparisons with the OT punishments that were given for breaking the OT laws. The very highest punishment that could possibly be doled out was the death penalty by stoning - not perpetual incarceration with the torment of continual flogging. God even limited the punishment of stripes given out to a maximum of 40 blows given to the offender, performed in front of the judge. No more than 40, God said, or if beaten with many more stripes than 40, "thy brother should seem vile unto thee" (Deut. 25:3).

The God who proscribed just levels of punishment back then, with a maximum of the death penalty, is the very same God who exercises mercy in the midst of judgment in the final judgment, even to His enemies. The very worst punishment that can possibly be doled out under the NC is a death penalty of both body and soul.

Our God is a "consuming fire". The souls of the wicked perish when confronted with God's "consuming fire", which is a constant stream issuing forth before Him, as Daniel 7:10 pictured for us. Only those covered by Christ's righteousness are blessed to dwell with that "devouring fire" and those "everlasting burnings" (Isaiah 33:14).

 

[Fred]

The God who proscribed just levels of punishment back then, with a maximum of the death penalty, is the very same God who exercises mercy in the midst of judgment in the final judgment, even to His enemies. The very worst punishment that can possibly be doled out under the NC is a death penalty of both body and soul.

Thanks for your worthless opinion.
Just because that is the justice meted out BY people (even for God) in this earthly transitory realm does not mean it must be equal (or even close to equal) for the eternal realm.
If they were put to death it was for 1 sin or perhaps 2. But an unsaved person commits myriad number of sins against an infinitely holy God.

Our God is a "consuming fire". The souls of the wicked perish when confronted with God's "consuming fire", which is a constant stream issuing forth before Him, as Daniel 7:10 pictured for us. Only those covered by Christ's righteousness are blessed to dwell with that "devouring fire" and those "everlasting burnings" (Isaiah 33:14).

Get out of the Old and get into the New.

Revelation 21:4
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away. (NASB)

If being snuffed out of existence is true then the unsaved receive the same blessings given by God to the saved in that they (the unsaved) will no longer have any tears, they will no longer experience death, they will no longer mourn or cry or experience any kind of pain.
If it is argued that the punishment for them is that they won't be conscious of the blessings they are missing then this isn't really being punished for they are not even aware of it. I've actually heard from unbelievers that they look forward to being nonexistent because they won't feel any pain and they don't care about feeling anything.

 

[Fred]

The wicked do not get everlasting life in Hades, even in a tormented state. That would be a contradiction to the word "perish".

No, it wouldn't. A smashed glass bottle is destroyed but that doesn't mean its components cease to exist.

Despite using the Greek word for being blotted out (exaleiphō) in Colossians 2:14 concerning the decrees against us, it is never used in reference to the state of the unsaved after death.

Only those who are God's own are promised eternal life.

Agree, but those who are not God's own are promised eternal damnation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Get out of the Old and get into the New.

It's the same God. He doesn't change His nature from the Old to the New. If He exercised mercy in judgment in the Old Testament Mosaic laws laid out for Israel, that did not exhaust His mercy for those living under the New Covenant.

Agree, but those who are not God's own are promised eternal damnation.

Our difference would lie in how we are understanding the word "damnation". You want it to be the Jonathan Edwards variety with sinners more or less skewered on a toasting fork being tormented for all eternity. The scriptures don't present damnation in that manner for the wicked dead. "The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment" (Psalms 1:5). The ungodly are compared to chaff that blows away on the wind - to smoke - to burned up tares. God has no intention of enduring the living existence of the wicked perpetually - even in a sequestered location.

God is not a sadist. He has said that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. It is disturbing to me that so many seem to relish this idea of perpetual torment in the afterlife for their fellow-man.

 

[CherubRam]

Ummm … is that not in part because a LITERAL touchstone (a rock used to test for gold by scraping a sample along it and looking for a color change) makes the scripture sound like a crazy person?

Scraping something against a rock is closer to “OUCH” than “DEAD”, so “punishment/pain/torment” seem closer than just “dead/void of life” for a metaphorical meaning of ”touchstone”.

You are reading parables. Parables, Parables, Parables, Parables, Parables, Parables.
Do you understand the word "PARABLE."
Metal is (rubbed out) onto the stone.
Rubbed out, is dead.

Definition of RUB OUT

to obliterate by or as if by rubbing; to destroy completely; specifically : kill, murder… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

The words torment and torture are contradictions to many scriptures.
Parable

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/parable

 

[atpollard]

Metal is (rubbed out) onto the stone.
Rubbed out, is dead.

Dead is cease to exist … if the test for real gold is to rub the sample against a stone until the sample ceases to exist, then it isn’t really a useful test, is it? “Yes, we had real gold, but we destroyed it all.”

As an alternative, rubbing a sample against the testing stone, INJURES the sample stone and reveals whether or not it is gold in the process.

The sample is not destroyed, it is only harmed. In the same way, the soul is not destroyed, it is only harmed. Claiming over and over that testing with a touchstone is equivalent to death (destruction) does not make the analogy fit.

 

[Fred]

It's the same God. He doesn't change His nature from the Old to the New.

Strawman.

If He exercised mercy in judgment in the Old Testament Mosaic laws laid out for Israel, that did not exhaust His mercy for those living under the New Covenant.

Strawman.

Our difference would lie in how we are understanding the word "damnation".

Yes, because I go by how the lexicons properly define the word.
You have supplied zero lexical support for your position.

You want it to be the Jonathan Edwards variety with sinners more or less skewered on a toasting fork being tormented for all eternity. The scriptures don't present damnation in that manner for the wicked dead.

Zero proof.

"The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment" (Psalms 1:5).

Old Covenant.
When I say Old Covenant, it means you are disregarding the further revelation in the New Covenant.

The ungodly are compared to chaff that blows away on the wind - to smoke - to burned up tares. God has no intention of enduring the living existence of the wicked perpetually - even in a sequestered location.

God is not a sadist.

Eternal damnation doesn't make Him one.
You lack the ability to even come close to knowing His infinite holiness that would demand it.

He has said that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Yes, they should repent.

It is disturbing to me that so many seem to relish this idea of perpetual torment in the afterlife for their fellow-man.

Your opinion (not Scripture) is noted.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Its clear from scripture that the wicked will perish, so what does that mean.

Which "authoritative" version would you like???

Folks who aren't born again go to HELL, and then get dumped into the Lake of Fire.

What "version" do you prefer???

 

[3 Resurrections]

Yes, because I go by how the lexicons properly define the word.
You have supplied zero lexical support for your position.

Fred, I do not despise the use of lexicons or any other research tool that better enables us to understand the scripture. My brother was a Greek professor for many years and I have nothing but respect for his level of expertise. However, that knowledge has not necessarily given him the insight of the Holy Spirit on some matters of doctrine. Just as the Pharisees were technical experts in their field, but that did not guarantee them the true sense of what they studied so intently.

You are proposing with your view that immortality is an inherent feature of the human soul, and that even the wicked have immortality in the afterlife with their experience of eternal conscious torment.

Scripture says otherwise of the soul of mankind, ever since Creation. An endless life of both soul and body was conditional for the originally-sinless couple from the very beginning, dependent upon their continued fellowship with their holy, immortal Creator, symbolized by the Tree of Life in the Garden. The moment that fellowship was lost in a single act of disobedience, death of their souls followed (resulting in a physical death sentence for their bodies also).

Christ Jesus the King of kings and Lord of lords alone has immortality, according to 1 Timothy 6:16. The only way that humanity can have immortality of body and soul is by connection with Christ Jesus and His inherent immortality. Those who are "IN Christ" while in this life have been given eternal life of the soul ("And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish"). In the bodily resurrection, these who already have been given eternal life of the soul while in this life will also be given immortality of their bodies as well in a changed condition of incorruptibility that will never die again after the resurrection.

The wicked have no such connection with being "IN Christ", and so do not have that immortality of either body or soul. We are to fear Him who has power to destroy ("apolesai") both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). THIS is presented as the ultimate fearful threat for humanity - not eternal conscious torment in this passage.

If God predicted the fiery death of the ultimate evil character of Satan the anointed cherub in Ezekiel 28:18-19, telling him that "never shalt thou exist anymore" after he is burned to ashes upon the earth, then why do you think that the wicked dead of humanity are not to share this same fate? After all, the angels as originally created were "greater in power and might" than humanity, so if the wicked angels such as Satan were to be burned to ashes upon the earth, it is not beyond God's abilities to destroy the wicked dead of humanity as well, both body and soul.

Also, if you suppose that the wicked dead are to experience eternal conscious torment, then how do you explain Isaiah 26:13-19? In this passage, the wicked dead are contrasted with the righteous dead who belong to God. For the wicked dead, Isaiah says, "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish."

In contrast to these wicked dead who "shall not rise", Isaiah says of the righteous dead, "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

This Isaiah passage informs us that the bodies of the wicked dead are never to rise from dwelling in the dust of the grave, in direct contrast to the bodies of those that belong to God, which do arise from dwelling in the dust of the grave. If you deny the one fact, you deny the other. This is not just an OT reality that did not transfer to the NT.

 

[Fred]

Fred, I do not despise the use of lexicons or any other research tool that better enables us to understand the scripture. My brother was a Greek professor for many years and I have nothing but respect for his level of expertise. However, that knowledge has not necessarily given him the insight of the Holy Spirit on some matters of doctrine. Just as the Pharisees were technical experts in their field, but that did not guarantee them the true sense of what they studied so intently.

Invalid correlation.
The Pharisees went by tradition and hated Jesus.

Where's your proof that those who produced these lexicons did the same>