Prove the Practice of Worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son

[ChristB4us]

Then you contradict Romans 8:27. In order for the Holy Spirit to interceded for the believer He must know their hearts.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

Romans 8:26 Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for (A)we do not know what to pray for as we should, but (B)the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with [a]groanings too deep for words; 27 and (C)He who searches the hearts knows what (D)the mind of the Spirit is, because He (E)intercedes for the [b]saints according to the will of God. NASB

Even your NASB testifies that this "he" is separate from us in searching our hearts AND separate from the Spirit to know the mind of the Spirit so that verse 27 is not identifying that "he" as the Spirit, but that "he" is Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Can we approach the Holy Spirit at that throne of grace as if He is another Mediator between God and men as not another high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin?

Since you continue to ignore the evidence I presented in post 69 this conversation is done.

Thank you.

I have yet to touch on your proofs of #2 #3 & #4 but proof #1 & #5 was addressed in post # 79

 

[Eleanor]

We pray to the Father, through (or in the name of) the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit. All three are active participants in the believer’s prayer. All three of the persons of God are, in fact, God as there is only one God. It seems to me that this is a false distinction ( not praying to the Spirit ) simply for the fact that prayer to God at all is prayer too all three of the persons. It is also somewhat formulaic and places restrictions where the Bible does not place them.

Do I *have* to pray "Father" or "Jesus" or "Lord Jesus" or simply "Lord" or...where does it end? By who's authority? Certainly not the Scripture as it does not disallow such a thing. It is also not inferred. So the argument is from silence.

Anywho I'll leave you and the group to noodle through this and the following:

Acts 4:31-Acts 5

31 And when they had prayed earnestly, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with confidence.32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and not one was saying that any of his possessions was his own, but, for them, everything was common.33 And with great power the apostles were bearing witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.34 For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.36 Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),37 and who owned a field, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge. And bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet.3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your authority? Why is it that you laid this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard.6 And the young men rose up and wrapped him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

Was Ananias speaking to or praying to the Holy Spirit? He was not.
Irrelevant to praying to the Holy Spirit.

BTW, did I see somewhere that you were the spelling police?
So just to let you know that you either misspell the word "to" as "too," or you are using the wrong word.

"Too" means likewise, also, over or more than enough, as in too long, or to such degree as to be regrettable, as in too bad.

 

[Fred]

Was Ananias speaking to or praying to the Holy Spirit? He was not.
Irrelevant to praying to the Holy Spirit.

It is proof that the Holy Spirit knew their hearts.
This demonstrates He is the proper recipient of prayer.

 

[ChristB4us]

Second proof: In proper prayer one must seek to know (and do) the will of the Lord.
Acts 21:11, 14
(11) When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus says the Holy Spirit, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles....
(14) So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.

Thus says the Holy Spirit = The will of the Lord

In the Old Testament when a prophet announced, "Thus says the Lord..." it was a proclamation by the prophet to what God had told him to say. Likewise, the Holy Spirit communicates His sovereign will to Agabus in order for him to relate it to Paul.

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): In Acts 21:11 Agabus (like the prophets of the OT; cf. Isa 20:2; Jer. 13:1 ff.) carried out a symbolic action with Paul's girdle (a long cloth worn about the waist), to indicate the coming arrest of Paul. "The accompanying word of interpretation 'Thus says the Holy Spirit!' corresponds to the OT 'Thus says Yahweh!'" (3:121, Ready, Friedel Selter).

Still point you back to how the Holy Spirit speaks, brother as what the Holy Spirit speaks are not His own words.

John 16:3 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The significance and full meaning of john 16:15 can be seen below.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Third proof:
He fully knows the hearts in order to intercede for the saints (Romans 8:27).
Since He fully knows the hearts of all demonstrates He is the proper recipient of prayer.
1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men. (NASB)

Refuted in post # 81

Fourth proof:
The Holy Spirit is said to be responsible for fulfilling the task of selecting overseers for the church.
His approval is necessary.

Acts 1:20 (episkopē)
Let another take his office.
Acts 20:28 (episkopos)
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Everything the Holy Spirit does is by the direction & authority of Jesus Christ. Here are other Bible versions of John 16:13 below.

John 16:13 The Holy Spirit is coming. He will lead you into all truth. He will not speak His Own words. He will speak what He hears. He will tell you of things to come. NLV
John 16:13 When (A)the Spirit of truth comes, (B)he will (C)guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but (D)whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ESV

John 16:13 When the Holy Spirit, who is truth, comes, he shall guide you into all truth, for he will not be presenting his own ideas, but will be passing on to you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. TLB

Are you getting the bigger picture of the truth in His words now? Not all Bibles have Romans 8:26-27 as aligning with the truth in John 16:13 but the KJV and a few modern bibles still do. May God cause the increase.

Fifth proof:
The Lord was asked in prayer for a replacement of Judas "to take part in this ministry." (Acts 1:25)
To Whom does this ministry belong to? The Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:8
how will the ministry of the Holy Spirit not be more glorious?

It is His ministry, so He is responsible for choosing an overseer for it.

Refuted in post # 79

 

[Eleanor]

It is proof that the Holy Spirit knew their hearts.
This demonstrates He is the proper recipient of prayer.

It demonstrates no such thing.

The Father is the author of salvation, but that doesn't mean he died on the cross.

 

[ChristB4us]

It is proof that the Holy Spirit knew their hearts.
This demonstrates He is the proper recipient of prayer.

Are you Pentecostal or Charismatic or Catholic?

If you would rather not say, I understand.

Catholics pray to Mary, the departed patron saints, & the Holy Ghost. What does that tell you there?

Narrow the way back to the straight gate, the Lord Jesus Christ, the One Who died for you & is risen and ascended and will be coming back as the Bridegroom. We need no other "bridegroom" in coming to God the Father by. That would be committing spiritual adultery.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Was Ananias speaking to or praying to the Holy Spirit? He was not.
Irrelevant to praying to the Holy Spirit.

Reading comprehension, Eleanor. How could Ananias lie to the Holy Spirit without "speaking" too Him?

BTW, did I see somewhere that you were the spelling police?
So just to let you know that you either misspell the word "to" as "too," or you are using the wrong word.

Thank you...even the spelling police run into spellcheck.

"Too" means likewise, also, over or more than enough, as in too long, or to such degree as to be regrettable, as in too bad.

 

[ChristB4us]

It demonstrates no such thing.

The Father is the author of salvation, but that doesn't mean he died on the cross.

Jesus Christ is the author & finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I cannot find any scripture designating the Father as such as the author, unless some modern bible version has changed that message somehow.

But I did find that after death & hades is cast into the lake of fire and all is judged at the Great white Throne Judgment, the Son hands the completed kingdom of Heaven back to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[ChristB4us]

Reading comprehension, Eleanor. How could Ananias lie to the Holy Spirit without "speaking" too Him?

More like reading that into the message, brother.

We have tongue users for private use reading into the message about praying in the Holy Spirit as if that validates tongues for private use when it is about not praying by your flesh for your wants and things like that. James touched on that too for how not to pray.

James 4:1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Where is a clear example of any one praying TO the Holy Spirit? There is none other than what is inferred by @Fred

And yet we have scripture leading us in a specific way and the only way otherwise.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

More like reading that into the message, brother.

We have tongue users for private use reading into the message about praying in the Holy Spirit as if that validates tongues for private use when it is about not praying by your flesh for your wants and things like that. James touched on that too for how not to pray.

James 4:1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Where is a clear example of any one praying TO the Holy Spirit? There is none other than what is inferred by @Fred

And yet we have scripture leading us in a specific way and the only way otherwise.

Then we disagree. And that's ok. We are both, as I said, essentially arguing from silence. We can infer all the day long.

Personally I fall on the side of Luther when it comes to what is permissible and what is not in these circumstances. Just the very fact of Trinity clears my conscience on this.

On the flip side I understand your caution as people have been abusing the Spirit of God for a very very long time. As an aside have you read James White's "The Forgotten Trinity"?

Be blessed, brother.

 

[Eleanor]

Reading comprehension, Eleanor. How could Ananias lie to the Holy Spirit without "speaking" too Him?

It's not about comprehension, it's about knowledge of the nature and operation of the Holy Spirit.
In addition to Christology and ecclesiology, dispensationalism is also weak in pneumanology.

Thank you...even the spelling police run into spellcheck.

What did we do before that?

 

[Fred]

It demonstrates no such thing.

The Holy Spirit knows every lie within the heart.

The Father is the author of salvation, but that doesn't mean he died on the cross.

Irrelevant

 

[Eleanor]

Jesus Christ is the author & finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I cannot find any scripture designating the Father as such as the author, unless some modern bible version has changed that message somehow.

It was the Father's will that the Son die for sin, which the Son willingly did.

But I did find that after death & hades is cast into the lake of fire and all is judged at the Great white Throne Judgment, the Son hands the completed kingdom of Heaven back to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Fred]

Are you Pentecostal or Charismatic or Catholic?

None of the above.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

It's not about comprehension, it's about knowledge of the nature and operation of the Holy Spirit.
In addition to Christology and ecclesiology, dispensationalism is also weak in pneumanology.

What did we do before that?

You know...I'm really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we got off on the wrong foot? Both feet? Who knows. But, like before spellcheck, I'm just going to have to muddle along without your obvious genius. We mere mortals are not worthy of you.

 

[Fred]

Still point you back to how the Holy Spirit speaks, brother as what the Holy Spirit speaks are not His own words.

Then that argument can be used for not praying to Christ (John 14:24)

 

[Eleanor]

The Holy Spirit knows every lie within the heart.

Irrelevant

Most relevant to an analogy which is not analagous.

 

[Fred]

Most relevant to an analogy which is not analagous.

They tried lying to the Holy Spirit, but it didn't work.

Why?
Because He knew the deception of their hearts.

Thus, the Holy Spirit is the heart-knower of all.

 

[Eleanor]

They tried lying to the Holy Spirit, but it didn't work.

Why?
Because He knew the deception of their hearts.

Thus, the Holy Spirit is the heart-knower of all.

Which does not mean we are to pray to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fred]

Which does not mean we are to pray to the Holy Spirit.

It proves He is the proper recipient of prayer.

If one is able to fully know the hearts of all then that is the foundation for being the proper recipient of prayer.
1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men. (NASB)