Prove the Practice of Worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son
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Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit has limited ability?
Ability does not determine function, the will of the Father determines function.
It is the will of the Father that Jesus propitiate and the Holy Spirit apply the benefits of propitiation.
The Holy Spirit applies what the Father willed and the Son accomplished.
The Father and Holy Spirit did not expiate, the Son did.
The Son and the Holy Spirit did not decree salvation, the Father did.
The Father and the Son do not apply the benefits of Christ's expiation, the Holy Spirit does.
We pray to the Father and to the Son, originators of those benefits, which are applied by the Holy Spirit at the direction of the Father and the Son.
That is the order of function presented in the NT.
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Not at all. He fully knows the hearts of all.
Yes, it does. If you aren't able to function then you don't have the ability to preform the function.
As well as the will of the Holy Spirit. (post 69)
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ChristB4us said:
In "holy laughter" movement, Pensacola outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade, Azusa Street Revival, Asbury Revival, they all have a hunger for more of God; for more of that phenomenon, in receiving what they believe was the Holy Spirit by a sign again and again and again. They address the Holy Spirit and they seek this visitations of signs & lying wonders when in actuality it is the spirit of the antichrist which is in the world, because all who come to Jesus for salvation, shall never hunger nor thirst again to be filled because after salvation, we are always filled with the Holy Spirit for why we are not leaky vessels in need of another filling again.
This passage, (and a few others like it), has presented to me a great (and enjoyable) paradox for a long time: Once having "tasted him", the more I get, the more I am "hungry" and "thirsty". I don't see this principle as a proof of their falsehood, regardless of whether I believe them false or not (and I do believe them false, btw). I've heard of legitimate examples of the public work of the Holy Spirit, to include signs, but also fellowship, where one longs for the next time to spend with the brothers, Christ there "in the midst of them".
@ChristB4us used it as referring to being filled with the Holy Spirit (which the context of the verse does not specify) but even if the verse does refer to that, or at least to what the Spirit of God does in a person, (which I also agree is what is being referred to), there may be a considerable difference between the "filling" and the "indwelling", of the Holy Spirit.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what, to my thinking, will never need redone, and which is everlasting, never to be "re-fed". The filling is over and over done for God's purposes, and enjoyed by us and desired. We are exhorted to be filled. That is not by the same use of 'monergism' as the initial indwelling. In fact, there are Bible instances where the Spirit of God apparently 'entered' the unredeemed, but did not stay. "Is Saul also among the prophets?"
But I say this as a criticism of the 'proof' to which you react, and to ask what you meant by "arresting". I do think that you agree with me as to the difference.
In "holy laughter" movement, Pensacola outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade, Azusa Street Revival, Asbury Revival, they all have a hunger for more of God; for more of that phenomenon, in receiving what they believe was the Holy Spirit by a sign again and again and again. They address the Holy Spirit and they seek this visitations of signs & lying wonders when in actuality it is the spirit of the antichrist which is in the world, because all who come to Jesus for salvation, shall never hunger nor thirst again to be filled because after salvation, we are always filled with the Holy Spirit for why we are not leaky vessels in need of another filling again.
I don't understand your statement here. "Arresting."?
This passage, (and a few others like it), has presented to me a great (and enjoyable) paradox for a long time: Once having "tasted him", the more I get, the more I am "hungry" and "thirsty". I don't see this principle as a proof of their falsehood, regardless of whether I believe them false or not (and I do believe them false, btw). I've heard of legitimate examples of the public work of the Holy Spirit, to include signs, but also fellowship, where one longs for the next time to spend with the brothers, Christ there "in the midst of them".
@ChristB4us used it as referring to being filled with the Holy Spirit (which the context of the verse does not specify) but even if the verse does refer to that, or at least to what the Spirit of God does in a person, (which I also agree is what is being referred to), there may be a considerable difference between the "filling" and the "indwelling", of the Holy Spirit.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what, to my thinking, will never need redone, and which is everlasting, never to be "re-fed". The filling is over and over done for God's purposes, and enjoyed by us and desired. We are exhorted to be filled. That is not by the same use of 'monergism' as the initial indwelling. In fact, there are Bible instances where the Spirit of God apparently 'entered' the unredeemed, but did not stay. "Is Saul also among the prophets?"
But I say this as a criticism of the 'proof' to which you react, and to ask what you meant by "arresting". I do think that you agree with me as to the difference.
We pray to the Father and to the Son, originators of those benefits, which are applied by the Holy Spirit at the direction of the Father and the Son.
That is the order of function presented in the NT.
Nothing what I asserted was refuted concerning praying to the Holy Spirit.
I do agree with you.
His equating of filling with indwelling stopped me in my tracks at the suggestion of it, until I would definitely clear it up.
It goes to not reading into Scripture what is not actually presented in Scripture.
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Huh? Of course he is. What is your point?
Since He is omniscient means He fully knows the hearts of all.
This has been denied (not by me).
Nothing forbids the Holy Spirit from being the Hearer of prayer (Psalm 65:2).
Are you saying He is devoid of this knowledge?
If yes, you are denying His omnisxcience.
If no, then by being the "Hearer of prayer" demonstrates He is the proper recipient of prayer.
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Not by @Eleanor either. That, I can guarantee you. Apparently, you are extrapolating something to the point you think the question is relevant. Seems to me there is a huge false assumption going on here, and a jump in logic.
All from Post 78 below:
No, it does not plainly and directly testify to that but to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace doing that per Hebrews 4:12-16.
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I'll let her respond. [Edit by mod. Let's keep it Christian.]
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Good.
{Edited out the quoted post that was edited by another Mod]
@Fred, you did nothing wrong, just cleaning up some stuff that got edited in a previous post.
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It's about hermeneutics, exegesis (reading out of Scripture) vs. eisegesis (reading into Scripture).
Yours is eisegesis, for we find no command to pray to the Holy Spirit in the NT.
We find prayer to God commanded,
we find Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, in whose name prayer to God is to be made,
but we find no command to pray to the Holy Spirit in the NT.
The NT does not authorize prayer to the Holy Spirit, that "authorization" is by man.
Lack of its NT authorization is for a reason, and it matters.
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ChristB4us
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The latter part of 5:23 is not arguing from silence & the part about John 5:22 speaks of judgment over every believer.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
I see no wiggle room for the honoring of the Holy Spirit because that would mean stopping to honor the Son to honor the Father by honoring the Holy Spirit.
Since all judgment are committed unto the Son; then how we honor the Father by the Son or not is how we will be judged.
The way everybody is going is not based on what is plainly taught in scripture when it speaks to the church about how we are to worship but there are scripture testifying to how the Father wants us to come to Him by and how to honor Him by and how to glorify Him by and that is by the Son.
So the opposition is arguing from silence because scripture says when you are not honoring the Son, you are not honoring the Father. Truth.
Matthew 7:13-14 speaks of the broadening of the way which will be ecumenical in nature as gathering grapes of horns & figs of thistles Matthew 7:15-16 and the ecumenical modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. did that. From there is how the spirits of the antichrist will be permitted to come in with gibberish nonsense tongues as found in the occult ( Isaiah 8:19 ) and in spite of all the wonderful works being done in His name per Matthew 7:21-23, people can sometimes lose self control & fall Mathew 7:24-27.
This is what happens when the focus is on the Holy Spirit as opportunities for the visitations of the spirits of the antichrist breaks through.
Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.
Tongue speakers for private use would condemn holy laughter movement or slain in the spirit or being drunk in the spirit as not of God, but yet those phenomenon were ALSO present at Azusa Street Revival from which they promoted the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues ignoring Jesus's warning that they were committing spiritual adultery.
Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
This is why I believe Jesus is warning believers to narrow the way back to the straight gate in the latter days to avoid being in that iniquity of climbing up to God the Father by that "broad way" or else risk being left behind. This is why only a few will find it for why many will be left behind. Luke's warning is of Matthew 7:13-27's same message but citing the iniquity by the direction they came to God the Father by.
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
Scriptures testifying that climbing up any other way than the narrow way in approaching God the Father by is a work of iniquity.
I believe in the Three Witnesses of the Godhead but not how they apply the Trinity doctrine. It is the Father's will that is to be done and the Holy Spirit is in the service as the Spirit of Christ in testifying of the Son John 15:26 to glorify the Son John 16:14 & that includes leading us to do that very same thing even in worship. So that means there is no honoring the Holy Spirit to testify of the holy Spirit to glorify the Holy Spirit in worship. I am led by the Holy Spirit to do what He has been sent to do & that is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son & by Him, the Father.
May God bless you and keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His peace.
