Prove the Practice of Worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son

[Eleanor]

Which does not refute the Holy Spirit is the proper recipient of prayer.
See post 13.

Do we find prayer being made to the Holy Spirit in the NT?

 

[Fred]

Do we find prayer being made to the Holy Spirit in the NT?

Yes.

Revelation 1:4-5
(4) John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood. (NASB)

John's blessing (and a blessing is a prayer - 2 Chronicles 30:27) is in reference to all three Persons of the Trinity.

J.I. Packer: the prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:4-5 (would John have put the Spirit between the Father and the Son if he had not regarded the Spirit as divine in the same sense as they are?).

Trinity by J.I. Packer

 

[Eleanor]

Yes.

Revelation 1:4-5
(4) John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

John's blessing from the Holy Spirit is not a prayer to the Holy Spirit.

(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood. (NASB)

John's blessing (and a blessing is a prayer - 2 Chronicles 30:27) is in reference to all three Persons of the Trinity.
J.I. Packer: the prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:4-5 (would John have put the Spirit between the Father and the Son if he had not regarded the Spirit as divine in the same sense as they are?).

Trinity by J.I. Packer

The issue is not his being divine, it's his ministry in the Godhead, which is

to reveal God and Christ to the church, not to reveal himself,
to be the light of revelation illuminating God and Christ, not to illuminate himself,
to direct us to God and Christ, not to direct us to himself, for he already dwells within us
to minister the benefits of salvation from God and Christ, not from himself.
to intercede for us to God and Christ, not to intercede for us to himself.

The Holy Spirit's work is to point us to God and Christ, not to himself.

A primary, uninformed and wrong focus on the Spirit can set us up for trouble.

 

[Fred]

John's blessing from the Holy Spirit is not a prayer to the Holy Spirit.

Yes, it is.
Just like it is also a prayer to the Father and to the Son.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, it is.
Just like it is also a prayer to the Father and to the Son.

I'm thinking the blessing is part of the revelation from God to his servants (Rev 1:1)

 

[ChristB4us]

No they didn't. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is the bread of life.

To clarify, the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. gave the glory of the title "Giver of Life" & "Lord" to the Holy Spirit. This is wrong when the Holy Spirit & scripture would defer that glory to Jesus Christ as He is the bread of life that gives life to the world. I was referencing to John 6:30-35 to reprove that line in the Nicene creed by the scripture.

As for Jesus is Lord, all power has been given unto the Son per Matthew 28:18 & Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father Philippians 2:11.

It says He is God equally with the Father and the Son and therefore is to be worshiped as God, just as they are.

Jesus referred to the Father as greater than He was.

John 14:28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

I believe the Father & the Son, and the Holy Ghost are One and are 3 Witnesses within the One God, but it is the Father's will that shall be done.

You can see that again in His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane when He was praying to the Father to take the cup away from Him about dying on the cross but yet nevertheless the Father's will be done and not the Son's.

Now that Jesus has ascended, all power has been given unto the Son per Matthew 28:18 again, but it is still the Father's will be done since Jesus is our only Mediator as all intercessions has to go by Him at that throne of grace, including the Holy Spirit's silent intercessions for how and why the Father is to be given thanks for permitting Jesus to answer those prayers that passed the Father's will per John 14:13-14.

The Father sent the Son to do the work necessary for eternal life, the Son in His earthly ministry completed the work necessary for eternal life, and sent the Holy Spirit to continue the work of applying Christ's work to them through the new birth, the continuing spread of the gospel, teaching, sealing the believer etc. It was necessary for Jesus to leave the earth and He sent the Holy Spirit in His absence.

All power has been given unto the Son Matthew 28:18 and He is with us always Matthew 28:20 as He is the author & finisher of our faith per Hebrews 12:1-2 and thus the one we are to place our confidence in to finish per Philippians 1:6 as all the fruits of righteousness are by Jesus Christ Philippians 1:11 That means all the words of the Spirit are from Jesus Christ serving as the Spirit of Christ per John 16:13 and all that the Holy Spirit does in ministry, the Holy Spirit defer all credit & glory to Jesus Chrsit per John 16:14-15

So the mind of Christ we are to have in fellowship is Jesus Christ & Him crucified 1 Corinthians 2:2 and the mind of Christ we are to have in worship Philippians 2:5-11

The Holy Spirit is the giver of life, not in the sense of eternal life, but life period. We see that in Gen when God breathed the breath of life into Adam. And we see this life giving aspect of the Spirit in other places----at the new birth for one. And spirit has a rather etheriel unable to catch definition of wind, breath, life.

Since the Holy Spirit is sent to testify of the Son ( John 15:26 ) thru us ( John 15:27 ) in order to glorify the Son ( John 16:14 ) as scriptures is to testify of the Son so they come to Jesus for life, ( John 5:39-40 ) then we should not be exalting the Holy Spirit in any shape or form because the Holy Spirit in us & scripture are not leading us to do that.

The fact that countless churches call manifestations of the devil manifestations of the Spirit is a side issue not related to the position of the Holy Spirit's being worshiped. It isn't the Holy Spirit so it is not Him they are worshiping. All you said about the wrongness of that is true, but it is not related to worshiping the Holy Spirit as stated in the Nicene Creed. That Creed was clarifying the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity.

A good book on worshiping (communing with) the triune God is John Owen's book "Communion With God." It really would be good for Christ's church to get back to reading some of those writings of the ancients, the reformers and those who followed in their footsteps. We could recover much of what has been lost in this modern era, where much of the church skates along the surface, never mining the depths.

Because of the error of the Nicene creed of 381 A.D. is why the way has been broaden in the worship place and why many believers and churches are not heeding His words that the Son is the only way to approach ( John 14:6 ) & to honor ( John 5:22-23 ) God the Father by in worship, prayer and fellowship. Any other way invited the spirits of the antichrist to come in with their visitations of signs and lying wonders. John 10:1,7-9

 

[Fred]

I'm thinking the blessing is part of the revelation from God to his servants (Rev 1:1)

The blessing of grace and peace (v. 4) comes from all Three.

 

[Eleanor]

The blessing of grace and peace (v. 4) comes from all Three.

It's one God, you never get one divine person without the others.

 

[ChristB4us]

The Holy Spirit makes intercession and applies only what the Father gives him to apply because of the Son's mediatorship.

@Arial & @Fred

Actually the Son answers the prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

And also, the Holy Spirit ministers, the Holy Spirit gives that credit & glory to Jesus Christ serving as the Spirit of Christ.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

So the Father does not give the application to the Holy Spirit when it is the Son answering the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers and in ministry.

 

[Fred]

It's one God, you never get one divine person without the others.

Correct.
Thus, John prays to all Three to bless the reader.

 

[Fred]

So the Father does not give the application to the Holy Spirit when it is the Son answering the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers and in ministry.

In Acts 13:4, the Holy Spirit answered the prayer by sending out Paul and Barnabas.

 

[ChristB4us]

1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men. (NASB)

Since the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10) fully knows the hearts of all, then He is the proper recipient of prayer.

@Eleanor & @Arial

Read that again as this is about the Holy Spirit searching all things pertaining to the deep things of God as opposing how men cannot know.

It did not say this is about the Holy Spirit searching the hearts of men, but the deep things of God as something man cannot do.

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

As for 1 Kings 8:38-39, why do you keep overlooking the One that searches our hearts of Whom we have to do .. as in to answer to?

1 Kings 8:38 What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house: 39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Since the Holy Spirit in us is sent to testify of the Son (John 15:26 ) to glorify the Son, ( John 16:14 ) why are you deferring from the Son to the Holy Spirit? Scripture tells me that the Holy Spirit would not lead you to do that & so I reckon the Nicene creed had influenced you to do that.

 

[ChristB4us]

Correct.
Thus, John prays to all Three to bless the reader.

Why would John do that when Jesus is the only way to pray to the Father by at that throne of grace and the Holy Spirit is in him?

 

[ChristB4us]

In Acts 13:4, the Holy Spirit answered the prayer by sending out Paul and Barnabas.

@Eleanor & @Arial

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Being led by the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit answering the prayer.

Look a verse 2 and remember how the Holy Spirit speaks whatever He hears from Jesus Christ.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Jesus Christ is the Head of the body of believers. Do not lose sight of Him in the Book of Acts in giving credit & glory to the Holy Ghost.

 

[Fred]

for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The Holy Spirit "fathoms everything 1 Cor 2:10" (BDAG 3rd Edition, eraunaō, page 389).

As for 1 Kings 8:38-39, why do you keep overlooking the One that searches our hearts of Whom we have to do .. as in to answer to?

So the Holy Spirit doesn't know the hearts of all?

 

[Fred]

Why would John do that when Jesus is the only way to pray to the Father by at that throne of grace and the Holy Spirit is in him?

Thus refuting your assertion.

 

[Fred]

@Eleanor & @Arial

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Being led by the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit answering the prayer.

It is in Acts 13:4.

If it read, "so being sent out by the Father" there would be no question that the Father answered the prayer.

But it reads, "so being sent out by the Holy Spirit." Then there shouldn't be a disdain for the Holy Spirit in that He answered the prayer.

 

[Arial]

To clarify, the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. gave the glory of the title "Giver of Life" & "Lord" to the Holy Spirit. This is wrong when the Holy Spirit & scripture would defer that glory to Jesus Christ as He is the bread of life that gives life to the world. I was referencing to John 6:30-35 to reprove that line in the Nicene creed by the scripture.

There is no point in discussing it further if all you are going to do is ignore what I have said for the sake of simply repeating what I responded to in the first place

 

[Arial]

Thanks, That's what I was saying.

Sorry. When I reread your post I see that. Don't know why I didn't the first time.

 

[ChristB4us]

The Holy Spirit "fathoms everything 1 Cor 2:10" (BDAG 3rd Edition, eraunaō, page 389).

it is written for the message of truth regarding the deep things of God and not the hearts of men.

So the Holy Spirit doesn't know the hearts of all?

Scripture designates the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God for that.

The Holy Spirit helps by how He make intercessions for us that we do not know what to pray for.

The fact that we can grieve the Holy Spirit as He makes silent intercessions with groanings that He cannot utter would suggest the type of silent praying that we would stop sinning. Jesus knowing the mind of the Spirit is how the silent intercessions of the Spirit are known to the Father since Jesus alone can only give any intercessions, be the Spirit's, or our own, or the Son's own intercessions to the Father.