Prove the Practice of Worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son

[ChristB4us]

It was the Father's will that the Son die for sin, which the Son willingly did.

Granted but scripture designated Jesus as the author & finisher of our faith plainly enough.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

A lot of believers like to credit the Holy Spirit as drawing sinners to Jesus as if by convicting them of their sins, but in actuality scripture designates the Father as doing that.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father hides the truth from the wise & the prudent and reveals His Son even unto babes.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

And so it should be no debate about Who gives sinners to Jesus Christ to save, but they still ignore the plainness of scripture to go with what they have always been taught & had believed which is not of the truth in scripture. The Lord has to help me accept the fact that I have been led astray & taught wrong to rely on Him to understand His words and see the truth ( the meat ) in His words as kept in the KJV to expose false teachings.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Anyway, I hope in the Lord that you will see the truth in the plainness of scripture as you do in other areas that Jesus is the author & finisher of our faith and He is doing so as designated by the will of the Father.

 

[ChristB4us]

None of the above.

Do be aware that their teachings can infiltrate into your church, regardless of the denomination, and indeed, it has as they would teach the very same thing you are teaching now.

What would you do one Sunday service when the holy laughter come on your church when honoring the Holy Spirit in worship?

With all the fervor and motivation caused by the phenomenon, I think the only course of action would be to leave it.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Luke 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I can only hope that if and when it happens, the Lord will open your eyes to the truth in His words for why the way is narrow in coming to the Father in worship.

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His peace.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

The latter part of 5:23 is not arguing from silence & the part about John 5:22 speaks of judgment over every believer.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
I see no wiggle room for the honoring of the Holy Spirit because that would mean stopping to honor the Son to honor the Father by honoring the Holy Spirit.

This has nothing to do with the Spirit nor prayer too the spirit.

Since all judgment are committed unto the Son; then how we honor the Father by the Son or not is how we will be judged.
The way everybody is going is not based on what is plainly taught in scripture when it speaks to the church about how we are to worship but there are scripture testifying to how the Father wants us to come to Him by and how to honor Him by and how to glorify Him by and that is by the Son.

So the opposition is arguing from silence because scripture says when you are not honoring the Son, you are not honoring the Father. Truth.

I know you want this to say what you are saying but it simply doesn't. It's addressing the Father and the Son. Not the Spirit.

Matthew 7:13-14 speaks of the broadening of the way which will be ecumenical in nature as gathering grapes of horns & figs of thistles Matthew 7:15-16 and the ecumenical modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. did that. From there is how the spirits of the antichrist will be permitted to come in with gibberish nonsense tongues as found in the occult ( Isaiah 8:19 ) and in spite of all the wonderful works being done in His name per Matthew 7:21-23, people can sometimes lose self control & fall Mathew 7:24-27.

This is what happens when the focus is on the Holy Spirit as opportunities for the visitations of the spirits of the antichrist breaks through.

This is reading your personal conviction and interpretation into the text. This is known as Eisegesis. Attempting to apply your personal conviction to others is called legalism. Neither is a good thing.

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

Tongue speakers for private use would condemn holy laughter movement or slain in the spirit or being drunk in the spirit as not of God, but yet those phenomenon were ALSO present at Azusa Street Revival from which they promoted the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues ignoring Jesus's warning that they were committing spiritual adultery.

Mind you I'm with you on the entire speaking nonsense crowd. The "tongues" spoken of in the Bible were actual languages as proven in Acts.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This is why I believe Jesus is warning believers to narrow the way back to the straight gate in the latter days to avoid being in that iniquity of climbing up to God the Father by that "broad way" or else risk being left behind. This is why only a few will find it for why many will be left behind. Luke's warning is of Matthew 7:13-27's same message but citing the iniquity by the direction they came to God the Father by.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Scriptures testifying that climbing up any other way than the narrow way in approaching God the Father by is a work of iniquity.

I believe in the Three Witnesses of the Godhead but not how they apply the Trinity doctrine. It is the Father's will that is to be done and the Holy Spirit is in the service as the Spirit of Christ in testifying of the Son John 15:26 to glorify the Son John 16:14 & that includes leading us to do that very same thing even in worship. So that means there is no honoring the Holy Spirit to testify of the holy Spirit to glorify the Holy Spirit in worship. I am led by the Holy Spirit to do what He has been sent to do & that is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son & by Him, the Father.

May God bless you and keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His peace.

Also with you regarding the blab it and grab it crowd and a host of other weirdness. It shouldn't happen. I'm sure you are familiar with the "Strange Fire" conference? It's nothing new and has been happening since Paul's day. But your personal conviction about praying to the Spirit simply isn't there in my opinion and you haven't supported it through Scripture.

Grace and peace to you, brother. Thanks for the chat.

 

[ChristB4us]

Then that argument can be used for not praying to Christ (John 14:24)

@CrazyCalvinistUncle & @Eleanor & @preacher4truth & @makesends & @Carbon & @David1701

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

That is about how we should be discerning with Him which Bible version loves Him to keep His words and which Bible versions did not.

Westcott & Hort: their heresies and occult activities

~~~ Quoted from link ~~~Westcott and Hort were men who did not believe in many orthodox doctrines, especially in regards to the authority and preservation of the Scriptures. Hort said in a letter: The positive doctrines even of the Evangelicals seem to me perverted rather than untrue. There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, and especially the authority of the Bible;[2] Hort differed greatly with orthodox Christianity in regards to the authority of the Bible in the life of the Christian.

Westcott and Hort not only did not believe in orthodox views in regards to the authority of the Bible, they also despised the traditional Bible that had been used since the early days of the church. Hort said regarding the traditional Bible (Received Text): I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus.[3] The villainous textus Receptus? This is the person whom modern Christians trust to have reconstructed the Greek text of their Bibles? Hort continued: Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late manuscripts.; it is a blessing there are such early ones.[4] Calling the traditional and historic Bibles "vile" shows the low view these two men had for Scripture. ~~~ End of Quote from Link

And because they were in the occult:

~~~ Quoted from Link "In addition to their many doctrinal heresies, strong evidence exists from the writings of both Westcott and Hort that they were involved in occult activities during the time they prepared their Greek New Testament. These serious accusations are made with very strong evidence from the letters of both men. The evidence that is about to be presented shows the satanic influence on the two men that changed the text of almost all modern translations.

Hort wrote in a letter: Westcott...and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects, being all disposed to believe that such things really exist...Westcott is drawing up a schedule of questions...our own temporary name is the Ghostly Guild.[10] Dr. Sorenson notes that this occult activity club was organized by Westcott and Hort at Cambridge University the same year in which they began their work on their Greek text. They continued to participate in this club for a period of ten years.[11]

Today the "Ghostly Guild" is listed in The Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology as an occult organization in which its members related personal experiences with ghosts.[12] ~~~~ End of Quote from link

So when they did Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit makes intercessions "directly" Himself with wordless groans as if utter sounds from Himself which goes against John 16:13 in whatever Bible version you are using, that He cannot speak from Himself at all, is their mentality of how spirits speaks through mediums when translating that from the Greek.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

The KJV and a few modern bibles has it right in that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings from Himself.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Well goodness...just call me a heretic as well as crazy then. Won't be the first time.

 

[Carbon]

Well goodness...just call me a heretic as well as crazy then. Won't be the first time.

Same here.

 

[Arial]

@ChristB4us
The following is a quote from Got Questions that shows it is best to know what one is talking about before they talk about it. You mention Westcott and Hort as proof that the KJV is the only reliable translation, post whatever damaging things you can find about them as your support, but supporting nothing.

Brooke Westcott and Fenton Hort were 19th-century theologians and Bible scholars. Together, they produced The New Testament in the Original Greek, one of the earliest examples of modern textual criticism. Since its publication in 1881, Westcott and Hort’s work has proved to be impressively accurate, though far from perfect. Their approach not only advanced the science of textual criticism, but it added considerable weight to the claim that the Bible had been preserved from tampering and corruption.

The goal of textual criticism is removing changes, errors, and additions to a text in order to determine the original words. The King James translators, for example, generated their work from a series of manuscripts, none of which exactly matches their final product. They chose between variant readings or spellings, deciding what was most likely original through various techniques. Recognizing the need to use prior scholarship combined with new discoveries, the KJV translators made a good faith effort to improve upon what had already been done. This process continues today, albeit with a much greater number of manuscripts available. The differences between the various texts are trivial, amounting to less than one half of one percent of the words in the New Testament.

Not all textual critics use the same methods or give the same weight to certain manuscript families. The specific methods used by Westcott and Hort are no longer held as ideal by Bible scholars. Modern research considers their approach overly reliant on two manuscripts, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, as well as the principle of “shorter is earlier.” For these reasons, though the effective differences are minimal, The New Testament in the Original Greek is not the basis for any modern translation of the Bible. Rather, the United Bible Societies and Nestle-Aland critical texts are typically sourced for English translations today.

Unfortunately, Westcott and Hort are still infamous names with respect to the Bible, despite their text not being the basis of any major modern translations. Most mentions of the pair today are from detractors of their work, particularly those supporting the King James Only movement (KJVO). Such critics tend to focus entirely on Westcott’s and Hort’s non-orthodox spiritual beliefs. In truth, both men held to several ideas that modern conservative Christianity would consider heretical.

 

[Eleanor]

Granted but scripture designated Jesus as the author & finisher of our faith plainly enough.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Yes, our faith had its beginning in Jesus, as did salvation (Heb 2:10), and is also completed in him, the perfecter (teleiosis), completer (as was Zerubbabel of the Temple, Zec 4:9), accomplisher of our faith.

A lot of believers like to credit the Holy Spirit as drawing sinners to Jesus as if by convicting them of their sins, but in actuality scripture designates the Father as doing that.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father hides the truth from the wise & the prudent and reveals His Son even unto babes.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

And so it should be no debate about Who gives sinners to Jesus Christ to save, but they still ignore the plainness of scripture to go with what they have always been taught & had believed which is not of the truth in scripture. The Lord has to help me accept the fact that I have been led astray & taught wrong to rely on Him to understand His words and see the truth ( the meat ) in His words as kept in the KJV to expose false teachings.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Anyway, I hope in the Lord that you will see the truth in the plainness of scripture as you do in other areas that Jesus is the author & finisher of our faith and He is doing so as designated by the will of the Father.

 

[ChristB4us]

@ChristB4us
The following is a quote from Got Questions that shows it is best to know what one is talking about before they talk about it. You mention Westcott and Hort as proof that the KJV is the only reliable translation, post whatever damaging things you can find about them as your support, but supporting nothing.

Like how they had translated Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit is uttering like a medium does when channeling spirits? I see that.

And the link I had provided with the quotes cited references from which they had gotten those quotes. That counts.

Brooke Westcott and Fenton Hort were 19th-century theologians and Bible scholars. Together, they produced The New Testament in the Original Greek, one of the earliest examples of modern textual criticism. Since its publication in 1881, Westcott and Hort’s work has proved to be impressively accurate, though far from perfect. Their approach not only advanced the science of textual criticism, but it added considerable weight to the claim that the Bible had been preserved from tampering and corruption.

The goal of textual criticism is removing changes, errors, and additions to a text in order to determine the original words. The King James translators, for example, generated their work from a series of manuscripts, none of which exactly matches their final product. They chose between variant readings or spellings, deciding what was most likely original through various techniques. Recognizing the need to use prior scholarship combined with new discoveries, the KJV translators made a good faith effort to improve upon what had already been done. This process continues today, albeit with a much greater number of manuscripts available. The differences between the various texts are trivial, amounting to less than one half of one percent of the words in the New Testament.

Taken from an anti-KJVO cite I bet. Why?

15 Rules of Translation for the King James (KJV)

Not all textual critics use the same methods or give the same weight to certain manuscript families. The specific methods used by Westcott and Hort are no longer held as ideal by Bible scholars. Modern research considers their approach overly reliant on two manuscripts, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, as well as the principle of “shorter is earlier.” For these reasons, though the effective differences are minimal, The New Testament in the Original Greek is not the basis for any modern translation of the Bible. Rather, the United Bible Societies and Nestle-Aland critical texts are typically sourced for English translations today.

Unfortunately, Westcott and Hort are still infamous names with respect to the Bible, despite their text not being the basis of any major modern translations. Most mentions of the pair today are from detractors of their work, particularly those supporting the King James Only movement (KJVO). Such critics tend to focus entirely on Westcott’s and Hort’s non-orthodox spiritual beliefs. In truth, both men held to several ideas that modern conservative Christianity would consider heretical.

Let me show the evidence of how their involvement in the occult made them mistranslate Romans 8:26-27 to mean. at this link, starting with the KJV which cites the truth that not even His groanings can be uttered as opposing their translation that sounds are being uttered.

Romans 8:26-27 KJV & NIV & NASB & NLV

I rest my case.

 

[Eleanor]

@CrazyCalvinistUncle & @Eleanor & @preacher4truth & @makesends & @Carbon & @David1701

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
That is about how we should be discerning with Him which Bible version loves Him to keep His words and which Bible versions did not.
Westcott & Hort: their heresies and occult activities
~~~ Quoted from link ~~~Westcott and Hort were men who did not believe in many orthodox doctrines, especially in regards to the authority and preservation of the Scriptures. Hort said in a letter: The positive doctrines even of the Evangelicals seem to me perverted rather than untrue. There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, and especially the authority of the Bible;[2] Hort differed greatly with orthodox Christianity in regards to the authority of the Bible in the life of the Christian.
Westcott and Hort not only did not believe in orthodox views in regards to the authority of the Bible, they also despised the traditional Bible that had been used since the early days of the church. Hort said regarding the traditional Bible (Received Text): I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus.[3] The villainous textus Receptus? This is the person whom modern Christians trust to have reconstructed the Greek text of their Bibles? Hort continued: Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late manuscripts.; it is a blessing there are such early ones.[4] Calling the traditional and historic Bibles "vile" shows the low view these two men had for Scripture. ~~~ End of Quote from Link
And because they were in the occult:
~~~ Quoted from Link "In addition to their many doctrinal heresies, strong evidence exists from the writings of both Westcott and Hort that they were involved in occult activities during the time they prepared their Greek New Testament. These serious accusations are made with very strong evidence from the letters of both men. The evidence that is about to be presented shows the satanic influence on the two men that changed the text of almost all modern translations.
Hort wrote in a letter: Westcott...and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects, being all disposed to believe that such things really exist...Westcott is drawing up a schedule of questions...our own temporary name is the Ghostly Guild.[10] Dr. Sorenson notes that this occult activity club was organized by Westcott and Hort at Cambridge University the same year in which they began their work on their Greek text. They continued to participate in this club for a period of ten years.[11]
Today the "Ghostly Guild" is listed in The Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology as an occult organization in which its members related personal experiences with ghosts.[12] ~~~~ End of Quote from link

So when they did Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit makes intercessions "directly" Himself with wordless groans as if utter sounds from Himself which goes against John 16:13 in whatever Bible version you are using, that cannot speak from Himself at all,

An example of the specificity of function in the Godhead.

is their mentality of ho spirist speaks through mediums when translating that from the Greek.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

The KJV and a few modern bibles has it right in that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings from Himself.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

 

[Fred]

we find no command to pray to the Holy Spirit in the NT.

It doesn't have to be a command. There just has to be a biblical justification for doing it (Acts 1:24-26; Acts 13:3; 2 Corinthians 3:16; Revelation 1:4-5).

 

[Fred]

Do be aware that their teachings can infiltrate into your church,

Do be aware that Unitarianism can infiltrate your church. They also hold that the Holy Spirit is not omniscient.

 

[Fred]

@CrazyCalvinistUncle & @Eleanor & @preacher4truth & @makesends & @Carbon & @David1701

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

That is about how we should be discerning with Him which Bible version loves Him to keep His words and which Bible versions did not.

Westcott & Hort: their heresies and occult activities

~~~ Quoted from link ~~~Westcott and Hort were men who did not believe in many orthodox doctrines, especially in regards to the authority and preservation of the Scriptures. Hort said in a letter: The positive doctrines even of the Evangelicals seem to me perverted rather than untrue. There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, and especially the authority of the Bible;[2] Hort differed greatly with orthodox Christianity in regards to the authority of the Bible in the life of the Christian.

Westcott and Hort not only did not believe in orthodox views in regards to the authority of the Bible, they also despised the traditional Bible that had been used since the early days of the church. Hort said regarding the traditional Bible (Received Text): I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus.[3] The villainous textus Receptus? This is the person whom modern Christians trust to have reconstructed the Greek text of their Bibles? Hort continued: Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late manuscripts.; it is a blessing there are such early ones.[4] Calling the traditional and historic Bibles "vile" shows the low view these two men had for Scripture. ~~~ End of Quote from Link

And because they were in the occult:

~~~ Quoted from Link "In addition to their many doctrinal heresies, strong evidence exists from the writings of both Westcott and Hort that they were involved in occult activities during the time they prepared their Greek New Testament. These serious accusations are made with very strong evidence from the letters of both men. The evidence that is about to be presented shows the satanic influence on the two men that changed the text of almost all modern translations.

Hort wrote in a letter: Westcott...and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects, being all disposed to believe that such things really exist...Westcott is drawing up a schedule of questions...our own temporary name is the Ghostly Guild.[10] Dr. Sorenson notes that this occult activity club was organized by Westcott and Hort at Cambridge University the same year in which they began their work on their Greek text. They continued to participate in this club for a period of ten years.[11]

Today the "Ghostly Guild" is listed in The Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology as an occult organization in which its members related personal experiences with ghosts.[12] ~~~~ End of Quote from link

So when they did Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit makes intercessions "directly" Himself with wordless groans as if utter sounds from Himself which goes against John 16:13 in whatever Bible version you are using, that He cannot speak from Himself at all, is their mentality of ho spirist speaks through mediums when translating that from the Greek.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

The KJV and a few modern bibles has it right in that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings from Himself.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

I'm not reading book length posts that go off into areas unrelated to the subject at hand.

It's just a ruse to avoid the fact that the Holy Spirit is the proper recipient of prayer.

 

[Fred]

I rest my case.

You have no case.
Nothing detracts from the fact that the Holy Spirit must know the hearts of those who are praying in order to intercede for them.

He can't intercede for them if He doesn't know their hearts.

 

[Arial]

Like how they had translated Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit is uttering like a medium does when channeling spirits? I see that.

And the link I had provided with the quotes cited references from which they had gotten those quotes. That counts.

Did you even read what I posted? Your understanding of Romans 8:26-27 is completely off base. You have been shown this but you simply won't consider it. That is right fighting, not discussing.

The quotes you gave have nothing to do with the indictment you use them for to bring down translations besides the KJV. The method of interpretation used by Westcott and Hort are not used in modern translations and neither are their interpretations. It is a strawman fallacy.

Taken from an anti-KJVO cite I bet. Why?

As far as I know it is completely neutral and is a history of the two men you mentioned. And it gave FACTS about modern translations which you ignore. However those quotes you gave are used to discredit other translations by KJVO. So you are simply following long with instructions and statements give by your chosen doctrines of me. If you prefer the KJV so what? Then use it. Why does everyone else have to feel the same way you do about it?

Let me show the evidence of how their involvement in the occult made them mistranslate Romans 8:26-27 to mean. at this link, starting with the KJV which cites the truth that not even His groanings can be uttered as opposing their translation that sounds are being uttered.

You have not even presented a valid case let alone rested your case. That scripture has nothing to do with what is happening in charismatic churches, but you have made it so and missed entirely what the passage is saying---then conflate other passages that have nothing to do with this passage into it and make a mountain out of a non existent mole hill. But we have been over all that in the other forum and stubborn is as stubborn does. I guess being wrong and sticking to it is more tenable than admitting one is wrong or even considering they might be. I don't know why you want to go over it all again, other than it is a favorite fight, but I am not going to play.

Really that passage is about whether or not the Holy Spirit makes sounds when He intercedes?!!!

 

[Eleanor]

It doesn't have to be a command. There just has to be a biblical justification for doing it (Acts 1:24-26; Acts 13:3; 2 Corinthians 3:16; Revelation 1:4-5).

They were praying to and worshiping Christ (the Lord, who is the Spirit; i.e., one and the same God), and the angel in Rev. is bringing blessing from the Holy Spirit, the churches are not praying to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fred]

They were praying to and worshiping Christ (the Lord, who is the Spirit

Jesus isn't the Holy Spirit.
Are you a Modalist?

 

[Arial]

@ChristB4us
I will say this one last thing about the matter and then no more.

You have a valid view of tongues speaking in the church today imo. But in attempting to disprove it you mangle a number of isolated scriptures together as all talking about the same thing when they are all talking about different things----none of which relate to tongues. You cannot scripturally disprove their current use that way.

There is a reason they are not valid---a number of reasons---and the reason will be told to us in the scriptures by those things that are dealing with tongues. When we find what that reason is we have a legitimate way of refuting them. I have told you over in that other forum and not only told you but showed you. They were serving a specific necessary purpose when they occurred in the beginnings of the church, and the purpose was fulfilled even within the NT church. They are no longer necessary and to reproduce them is self serving and false. I showed you what the purpose was and why it is completed.

You do not care about that though that puzzles me. Why would you prefer a made up unsupportable "reason" rather than a true reason? If you want to come against them do so scripturally.

When I first began attending church it was charismatic churches. Being the baby Christian that I was, and since they used scripture to verify that all these displays of the "Holy Spirit" were real, I believed them. They knew more than I did. I felt intensely uneasy about it. Something didn't sit right with me about it, but I figured it was something new and strange, that surely I would not be being misled.

It was after I got into Reformed that I knew it was not right or was pretty sure it wasn't, but I did not yet no why. And before I could come down on being against tongues, I had to know why they weren't valid. So I found out and now I know. It was truth that mattered to me. Not my preconceived notions simply being against something.

The reasons you give and the scriptures you use would never have convinced me. And they won't convince anyone else either. Of course 99.9% of the time not even the facts will. On anything someone has wed themselves to.

 

[Eleanor]

Jesus isn't the Holy Spirit.
Are you a Modalist?

Don't blame me, blame 1 Co 3:17-18.

No, Jesus isn't the Holy Spirit.

Paul is saying the Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead, that Jesus works in men through the Spirit, that the Son and the Spirit are co-equal divine beings; i.e., the Holy Spirit it God.

 

[Fred]

Don't blame me, blame 1 Co 3:17-18.

Strawman.

No, Jesus isn't the Holy Spirit.

Paul is saying the Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead,

Great

the Holy Spirit it God.

And God is to be worshiped.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Thus, the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped.