Prevenient grace?

[ReverendRV]

You see this is a great example of how sola scripture should be you just keep on impressing me.

Thanks

Perhaps the most important Doctrine in the Bible is the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Scripture Alone ~ by ReverendRV * September 17

Genesis 1:1 KJV; In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Through Faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. So God created Man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created he them. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the Garden thou may freely eat; but of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree to be desired to make them wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he ate it. At once they saw what they had done, and they realized they were naked. Then they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves. ~ For the wages of Sin is Death…

All that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. ~ Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him and he began to teach them. He said: "You’ve heard the Commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.' but I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.” ~ For whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it…

The wages of Sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal Life! ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory; Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. For by Grace you are Saved through Faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by Works so that no one can boast. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ~ I’ve passed on to you what is most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our Sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. The Lord will rescue us from every evil deed and will bring us safely to his Heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen…

Revelation 22:20-21 KJV; He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[Agra Man]

Thanks

Perhaps the most important Doctrine in the Bible is the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Scripture Alone ~ by ReverendRV * September 17

Genesis 1:1 KJV; In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Through Faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. So God created Man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created he them. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the Garden thou may freely eat; but of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree to be desired to make them wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he ate it. At once they saw what they had done, and they realized they were naked. Then they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves. ~ For the wages of Sin is Death…

All that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. ~ Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him and he began to teach them. He said: "You’ve heard the Commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.' but I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.” ~ For whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it…

The wages of Sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal Life! ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory; Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. For by Grace you are Saved through Faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by Works so that no one can boast. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ~ I’ve passed on to you what is most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our Sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. The Lord will rescue us from every evil deed and will bring us safely to his Heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen…

Revelation 22:20-21 KJV; He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

I am curious though, every sola scripture person I have met usually has one thing in common. If you mention the spirit of God or the supernatural aspect of him it triggers them for some reason

The best way I know how to put it is that is as if they worship the bible not God himself, they stick only to the scriptures which would be fine but if they forget that he is spirit and that he does interact with his children in wondrous ways.

What do you think? I know your not like that but these people how can I reason with them?

There are two people in particular I am trying to help on another forum one is exactly what I am talking about and I cannot seem to get him to see what I am saying he just sees the what he calls red flags calling me a false prophet you know the stuff I have had to deal with.

Then there is another one who is the opposite he was really into the spirit and at first he had a spark a light I saw in him but then he kind of started floating into the sky so to speak no ground at all and he was talking about things like mother earth the energy of the earth and th3e mind is able to use this to create a protective sheild or something like that.

This came from nowhere and when I tried to get him to see these things he is talking about is dangerous well he sees me as an enemy now but I remember who he was and refuse to give up on him.

 

[ReverendRV]

I am curious though, every sola scripture person I have met usually has one thing in common. If you mention the spirit of God or the supernatural aspect of him it triggers them for some reason

The best way I know how to put it is that is as if they worship the bible not God himself, they stick only to the scriptures which would be fine but if they forget that he is spirit and that he does interact with his children in wondrous ways.

What do you think? I know your not like that but these people how can I reason with them?

There are two people in particular I am trying to help on another forum one is exactly what I am talking about and I cannot seem to get him to see what I am saying he just sees the what he calls red flags calling me a false prophet you know the stuff I have had to deal with.

Then there is another one who is the opposite he was really into the spirit and at first he had a spark a light I saw in him but then he kind of started floating into the sky so to speak no ground at all and he was talking about things like mother earth the energy of the earth and th3e mind is able to use this to create a protective sheild or something like that.

This came from nowhere and when I tried to get him to see these things he is talking about is dangerous well he sees me as an enemy now but I remember who he was and refuse to give up on him.

I don't know anyone who holds to Sola Scriptura, that Worships the Bible. I've known some Independent Fundamental Baptists who would insinuate the Bible is Divine; but they were KJVonly...

 

[Agra Man]

I don't know anyone who holds to Sola Scriptura, that Worships the Bible. I've known some Independent Fundamental Baptists who would insinuate the Bible is Divine; but they were KJVonly...

Well sadly people like that are a thing, I hold the bible in very high regard however if one limits Gods person to just the written word when Jesus himself is the word made flesh which is in the scriptures yet you explain this to them and they don't even respond they just ignore that part

 

[ReverendRV]

Well sadly people like that are a thing, I hold the bible in very high regard however if one limits Gods person to just the written word when Jesus himself is the word made flesh which is in the scriptures yet you explain this to them and they don't even respond they just ignore that part

That's why my IFB friends think the Bible is Divine: because the Word of God, the Logos, is Divine; Conflating these two Words of God...

As Trinitarians they do not cross the line though. They just toe-the-line before the line is crossed. Maybe this is why you think some Sola Scripturists cross the line; because they're toeing the line...

 

[Eleanor]

That's why my IFB friends think the Bible is Divine: because the Word of God, the Logos, is Divine; Conflating these two Words of God...

As Trinitarians they do not cross the line though. They just toe-the-line before the line is crossed. Maybe this is why you think some Sola Scripturists cross the line; because they're toeing the line...

Agreed. . .the logos in Jn 1:1 is neither the spoken nor the written word. It was the Greek concept of God himself.

Jesus is the Word, he is not the Word of God.
He never referred to himself as the Word of God.
Nor does the NT ever refer to him as the Word of God.

He is the Word, who is God.

Oops! New avatar.

 

[fastfredy0]

Disclaimer: The information presented does not represent my stance.

There is one question I must ask, does the bible teach such a doctrine as prevenient grace? If so, where?

First, the Scripture text that is appealed to quite often is John 1:9 "The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world."
A second argument employed by Wesleyans is that prevenient grace is granted in the atonement of Christ (e.g., Titus 2:11). This argument is bound up with the universality of Christ's atonement. His death for all necessarily implies that grace is given to some extent to all. The argument is that Christ would not die for all unless all were granted the opportunity to accept or reject him. John 12:32 can be understood as supporting this theory. Jesus says, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
The third Wesleyan argument in favor of prevenient grace has a theological cast. God must have granted man the power to choose him because otherwise the warnings, invitations, and commands in Scripture are meaningless. Why would God give commands to people if they are unable to put them into practice? There are numerous texts in Scripture in which commands, invitations, and warnings are employed. Perhaps a particularly appropriate verse to cite in support is: Romans 2:4 "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?". God would not command people to repent and be waiting for them to repent if he knew that they could not do so.
Fourth, prevenient grace is supported by the very nature of God. A God of mercy, wisdom, justice, and love would not leave human beings without an opportunity to repent and choose salvation. A God of love and mercy who desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) would see to it that all have the chance to partake of salvation. If God elects only a few, he is guilty of partiality.

And if you say it's something God does in man's heart, then I have to ask, why then is it not always effective?

Free Will

Which begs the question, why do some choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose to not cooperate?

Free Will

http://wesleyanarminian.blogspot.com/2009/05/prevenient-grace.html

 

[makesends]

Disclaimer: The information presented does not represent my stance.

Good thing. Even with the disclaimer I wanted to engage, big time!

First, the Scripture text that is appealed to quite often is John 1:9 "The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world."
A second argument employed by Wesleyans is that prevenient grace is granted in the atonement of Christ (e.g., Titus 2:11). This argument is bound up with the universality of Christ's atonement. His death for all necessarily implies that grace is given to some extent to all. The argument is that Christ would not die for all unless all were granted the opportunity to accept or reject him. John 12:32 can be understood as supporting this theory. Jesus says, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
The third Wesleyan argument in favor of prevenient grace has a theological cast. God must have granted man the power to choose him because otherwise the warnings, invitations, and commands in Scripture are meaningless. Why would God give commands to people if they are unable to put them into practice? There are numerous texts in Scripture in which commands, invitations, and warnings are employed. Perhaps a particularly appropriate verse to cite in support is: Romans 2:4 "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?". God would not command people to repent and be waiting for them to repent if he knew that they could not do so.
Fourth, prevenient grace is supported by the very nature of God. A God of mercy, wisdom, justice, and love would not leave human beings without an opportunity to repent and choose salvation. A God of love and mercy who desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) would see to it that all have the chance to partake of salvation. If God elects only a few, he is guilty of partiality.

Free Will



Free Will

http://wesleyanarminian.blogspot.com/2009/05/prevenient-grace.html

 

[fastfredy0]

Good thing. Even with the disclaimer I wanted to engage, big time!

Phew!!

 

[CCShorts]

Prevenient grace (or enabling grace).

There is one question I must ask, does the bible teach such a doctrine as prevenient grace? If so, where?

Although I disagree with the Arminian Doctrine of Prevenient Grace as being universal I do believe they have taken the biblical doctrine of Irresistible Grace and modified it in order to sneak “freewill” into the back door and therefore it has come to be an unbiblical understanding with a good title. With that being said I would like to present the original Prevenient Grace view of Irresistible Grace in its biblical consistent form:

In a world broken by sin, humanity finds itself spiritually dead, unable to save itself or comprehend the true beauty and worth of Jesus Christ. Yet, in His infinite mercy and love, God extends His grace, both prevenient and irresistible, to those He has purposed for salvation before the foundation of the world. Irresistible Grace is a prevenient grace that opens the spiritually blind eyes of those who were made sinners by one man's disobedience, enabling them to see Jesus as a precious treasure beyond compare.

Scripture tells us that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44). It is the Father's gracious work, drawing individuals to Jesus, that initiates their spiritual transformation. Just as God commanded light to shine out of darkness, He shines His light into our hearts, illuminating the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 4:6). This divine illumination opens our eyes to perceive the immeasurable worth of Jesus.

Even when we were dead in our trespasses, God, in His rich mercy, made us alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:4-5). Through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, our spiritual deadness is replaced with spiritual life. We become new creations, able to respond to the call of God.

The natural person, trapped in spiritual darkness, cannot accept or understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). It is the irresistible grace of the Holy Spirit that enables us to comprehend the depths of God's love and the surpassing value of Jesus Christ.

This irresistible grace is not a forced grace but a divine work that transforms our hearts and captivates our affections. As the spiritually blind eyes are opened, we see Jesus as the ultimate treasure. The surpassing joy of knowing and experiencing Him becomes irresistible, compelling us to reject all that the universe has to offer. We willingly forsake the fleeting pleasures of this world, enduring its sufferings, because the joy of gaining Christ in the end far outweighs them all.

Irresistible Grace is the outworking of God's sovereign will, drawing and enabling His chosen ones to embrace Jesus as their all-satisfying treasure. It is a grace that goes beyond our deserving, beyond our understanding, and secures our eternal salvation. May we stand in awe of the transformative power of Irresistible Grace, the prevenient grace that opened our spiritually blind eyes to behold the precious treasure that is Jesus Christ.

…

 

[fastfredy0]

I view the concept [Prevenient grace] as reactionary, similar to the one in Romans 9:19-21, that God has to "be fair" (according to mans criteria placed upon Him) or He cannot be God.

Maybe the tangental question to be asked is: what aspects of Reformed Theology are driven by "mans criteria placed upon God".
Are there none? Are there some that bias hides from them? (My ways are not your ways, My thoughts are ...)

Everyone concepts are 100% correct in their own eyes and if they're not, then the new/changed concept becomes theirs and perfection continues.

Why is it that everyone feels it's the other guy that is being deceived?

The Reformed guy and the R.C. walk up to the pearly gate and meet Peter. Peter says, "Well, I have good new and bad news; one of you is deceived and the other is not". The R.C guy whispers to the Reformed guy: "Doesn't look good for you, it's my first pope speaking to us, the rock upon which Christ builds His church". Reformed guy says:

 

[makesends]

Maybe the tangental question to be asked is: what aspects of Reformed Theology are driven by "mans criteria placed upon God".
Are there none? Are there some that bias hides from them? (My ways are not your ways, My thoughts are ...)

Everyone concepts are 100% correct in their own eyes and if they're not, then the new/changed concept becomes theirs and perfection continues.

Why is it that everyone feels it's the other guy that is being deceived?

The Reformed guy and the R.C. walk up to the pearly gate and meet Peter. Peter says, "Well, I have good new and bad news; one of you is deceived and the other is not". The R.C guy whispers to the Reformed guy: "Doesn't look good for you, it's my first pope speaking to us, the rock upon which Christ builds His church". Reformed guy says:

You have a point. Man's best conclusions drawn on God's truth, are not quite themselves God's truth.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re:Maybe the tangental question to be asked is: what aspects of Reformed Theology are driven by "mans criteria placed upon God".

I know of none as we represent the God of Scripture as to how He reveals Himself, which is repulsive to many.

Yes, that is my point. We of all faiths know of no errors; even the R.C.s for example no of no errors in their theology.

That could be true, do you have an example?

If I had an example of where my doctrine was wrong I would have corrected it and thought myself to be without any known error. The best one can do is find an area they are not sure of, but not one they are wrong about.


Re: Everyone concepts are 100% correct in their own eyes

That's an exaggeration, not substantiated, and is broad brushing. And there are many theological categories.

Prove it. Tell us of an doctrine you have that is wrong. I know there are many, many categories. If you're correct then you should be able to give examples where your theology is wrong.

I don't know about all of that. At times we are incorrect, then we get corrected by the word. My opinion here is there is nothing wrong in going along a path to changing and perfecting out beliefs by and through the word of God.

Agreed.


Re: Why is it that everyone feels it's the other guy that is being deceived?

You provide zero examples brother.

In some ways we can see clearly that others are being deceived. An extreme example is a works gospel. Another example is when ones soteriological viewpoint turns Biblical grace into merit.

I think you miss my point. I'm saying when we disagree with someone we assume the other person is incorrect/deceived and never ourselves to be in the wrong. I can't provide an example because the premise precludes that. Now, you can prove the premise wrong, at least in your personal situation, by providing an example where you believe you are being deceived currently and the guy that disagrees with you is correct. Example: you could say; "Fastfredy, I am deceived in all my assertions of my previous post and you are correct."

So the Catholic gospel is true? Analogies always fail. IMHO the gospel of the RCC and of the Reformed faith are not the same.

You misappropriated the intentions of the analogy IMO. It was to have a little fun and illustrate 2 people of different faiths who genuinely feel they are correct and we all know one of them is wrong. As you pointed out your bias, though it may be true and I think your are right, that the R.C. is wrong ... you should see the analogy fits the scenario and Peter is about to reveal the truth. (Hopefully, the Reformed guy is right or we're in Big Trouble *giggle*)

Analogies always fail.

I'm not much for biblical parables either. ...but hard to argue with the purpose of Man who wrote them

 

[fastfredy0]

You have a point. Man's best conclusions drawn on God's truth, are not quite themselves God's truth.

Agreed. I pray often that I be forgiven for the many things I have wrong about God, not that I know what they are; but the bible says to study to show thyself approved which is a sure recipe to getting more things wrong (and more things right ...lol)

.... guess it like Job pleading his case, then throwing up his hands in despair as to not knowing what he is talking about and humbling being told right from wrong.

 

[makesends]

Re: Everyone concepts are 100% correct in their own eyes

Well, no. Everyone's concept are the best they can currently do, in their own eyes. Probably most of us think we have better a better conception than the other guy, but recognize that ours also falls short.

Prove it. Tell us of an doctrine you have that is wrong. I know there are many, many categories. If you're correct then you should be able to give examples where your theology is wrong.

As above, one's theology is an attempt to describe the truth. It's not a matter of being wrong, but of falling short. Except for in the Word of God, human language is not suitable for absolute truth.

Both our concepts and our descriptions, (nevermind the inability to accurately understand one another, nor to accurately represent even our own concepts in communication with others), can never attain to full fact.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: Re: Everyone concepts are 100% correct in their own eyes

Well, no. Everyone's concept are the best they can currently do, in their own eyes. Probably most of us think we have better a better conception than the other guy, but recognize that ours also falls short.

Agreed. Perhaps I should be more articulate. Everyone knows they have errors in their doctrine but no one knows what those errors are and from that vantage points people believe they are 100% correct. You can prove me wrong by stating a biblical belief you know is incorrect which would invalidate the 100% as I define it.

As above, one's theology is an attempt to describe the truth. It's not a matter of being wrong, but of falling short.

Agreed, but semantics. To be wrong is a subset of "to fall short" ... least ways by my definition of "fall short" which means "fall short of perfection". God is never wrong; He never falls short. If God was wrong He would fall short (of perfection).

Except for in the Word of God, human language is not suitable for absolute truth.

Agreed, the word of God being the books making up the Bible as originally written. All the English translations have minor flaws ... you always lose something in translation for example.

Both our concepts and our descriptions, (nevermind the inability to accurately understand one another, nor to accurately represent even our own concepts in communication with others), can never attain to full fact.

I don't understand what you are saying .... j/k giggle ... I mean, I AGREE ... forums are Great Example of confusion that is directly proportional to knowledge and communication skills.

 

[ReverendRV]

Re: Re: Everyone concepts are 100% correct in their own eyes

Agreed. Perhaps I should be more articulate. Everyone knows they have errors in their doctrine but no one knows what those errors are and from that vantage points people believe they are 100% correct. You can prove me wrong by stating a biblical belief you know is incorrect which would invalidate the 100% as I define it.



Agreed, but semantics. To be wrong is a subset of "to fall short" ... least ways by my definition of "fall short" which means "fall short of perfection". God is never wrong; He never falls short. If God was wrong He would fall short (of perfection).



Agreed, the word of God being the books making up the Bible as originally written. All the English translations have minor flaws ... you always lose something in translation for example.



I don't understand what you are saying .... j/k giggle ... I mean, I AGREE ... forums are Great Example of confusion that is directly proportional to knowledge and communication skills.

That's a lot of agreement!

 

[fastfredy0]

That's a lot of agreement!

Yeah, didn't think there could be so much agreement among Christians on a Forum until after the rapture.

 

[Eleanor]

Re:Maybe the tangental question to be asked is: what aspects of Reformed Theology are driven by "mans criteria placed upon God".

Yes, that is my point. We of all faiths know of no errors; even the R.C.s for example no of no errors in their theology.

If I had an example of where my doctrine was wrong

Maybe limited atonement, since it is not specifically stated.

I would have corrected it and thought myself to be without any known error. The best one can do is find an area they are not sure of, but not one they are wrong about.
Re: Everyone concepts are 100% correct in their own eyes
Prove it. Tell us of an doctrine you have that is wrong. I know there are many, many categories. If you're correct then you should be able to give examples where your theology is wrong.
Agreed.
Re: Why is it that everyone feels it's the other guy that is being deceived?

I think you miss my point. I'm saying when we disagree with someone we assume the other person is incorrect/deceived and never ourselves to be in the wrong. I can't provide an example because the premise precludes that. Now, you can prove the premise wrong, at least in your personal situation, by providing an example where you believe you are being deceived currently and the guy that disagrees with you is correct. Example: you could say; "Fastfredy, I am deceived in all my assertions of my previous post and you are correct."



You misappropriated the intentions of the analogy IMO. It was to have a little fun and illustrate 2 people of different faiths who genuinely feel they are correct and we all know one of them is wrong. As you pointed out your bias, though it may be true and I think your are right, that the R.C. is wrong ... you should see the analogy fits the scenario and Peter is about to reveal the truth. (Hopefully, the Reformed guy is right or we're in Big Trouble *giggle*)


I'm not much for biblical parables either. ...but hard to argue with the purpose of Man who wrote them

 

[makesends]

Agreed. Perhaps I should be more articulate. Everyone knows they have errors in their doctrine but no one knows what those errors are and from that vantage points people believe they are 100% correct. You can prove me wrong by stating a biblical belief you know is incorrect which would invalidate the 100% as I define it.

Ok. I believe in what is commonly called the Trinity, but I am wrong, in that I have hardly a clue.