Prevenient grace?

[makesends]

Agreed, but semantics. To be wrong is a subset of "to fall short" ... least ways by my definition of "fall short" which means "fall short of perfection". God is never wrong; He never falls short. If God was wrong He would fall short (of perfection).

Actually, this goes to the argument people often post, that the Bible doesn't tell us everything. In a sense, it does, even as to what is contained in Genesis 1:1. Even to our human minds, Genesis 1:1 can imply absolutely all fact. But we are weak, temporal, silly, self-involved, etc etc etc, just as humans, nevermind as sinners. So God gives us a lot more information, that we tear apart instead of leaving together.

 

[Josheb]

It is neither correct, nor fair, to equate Arminius' view of prevenient grace or the sinful with Pelagius' views. Arminius was a subscriber to what we now call "total depravity." He was unequivocal with his rejection of the sinful will's ability - it has none. This is clearly stated in his Disputation 11. Arminius' view of prevenient grace was also different from that of Augustine's, even though Arminius was explicitly Augustinian. For Arm, prevenient grace was part of a process actively instrumented by God as part of the calling process wherein God enabled the called to respond to the call. Absent that, no sinner can do good. Think of it this way: prevenient grace is unnecessary prior to sin. That is one of the chief distinctions between Arminius and Pelagius. Pelagius believed soteriological volitional agency survived sin.

 

[Josheb]

The Reformed guy and the R.C. walk up to the pearly gate and meet Peter. Peter says, "Well, I have good new and bad news; one of you is deceived and the other is not". The R.C guy whispers to the Reformed guy: "Doesn't look good for you, it's my first pope speaking to us, the rock upon which Christ builds His church". Reformed guy says:

lol!

I saw it coming and still laughed

 

[fastfredy0]

You're being disingenuous.

Well, your questioning of my integrity makes further discussion unnecessary and not enjoyable. Too bad, you're a smart guy with interesting ideas. Oh well...

 

[fastfredy0]

I saw it coming and still laughed

Yeah, got to laugh to relieve the tension .... increase the enjoyment.

 

[ReverendRV]

Well, your questioning of my integrity make further discussion unnecessary and not enjoyable. Too bad, you're a smart guy with interesting ideas. Oh well...

Talk to ne Freddy-ol-pal...

Arminian Prevenient Grace is Irresistible, and Calvin's Irresistible Grace is Prevenient...

 

[fastfredy0]

Arminian Prevenient Grace is Irresistible

hmmm .... not sure what that means. Can't mean everyone receives Prevenient Grace as many never hear the salvific gospel in order to exercise said grace.
hmmm ... definition according to http://wesleyanarminian.blogspot.com/2009/05/prevenient-grace.html
Arminians believe that God draws everyone to Himself, while Calvinists believe that He draws a limited number. Arminians believe that drawing grace can be rejected, while Calvinists believe that drawing grace is always effectual.

Arminians define “Prevenient grace” as that the freedom, which was lost in Adam's sin, which is sufficiently restored to enable people to choose salvation. Prevenient grace provides people with the ability to choose or reject God. Prevenient grace does not guarantee that the good will be chosen. It simply provides the opportunity or liberty to choose salvation.

... I don't know ... not sure what you mean

I do know that if Prevenient Grace means each individual that hears the gospel has an unimpeded opportunity to decide truth then statistics dictate that 1/2 those who get Prevenient Grace should become believers but that contradicts empirical reality.

 

[ReverendRV]

hmmm .... not sure what that means. Can't mean everyone receives Prevenient Grace as many never hear the salvific gospel in order to exercise said grace.
hmmm ... definition according to http://wesleyanarminian.blogspot.com/2009/05/prevenient-grace.html
Arminians believe that God draws everyone to Himself, while Calvinists believe that He draws a limited number. Arminians believe that drawing grace can be rejected, while Calvinists believe that drawing grace is always effectual.

Arminians define “Prevenient grace” as that the freedom, which was lost in Adam's sin, which is sufficiently restored to enable people to choose salvation. Prevenient grace provides people with the ability to choose or reject God. Prevenient grace does not guarantee that the good will be chosen. It simply provides the opportunity or liberty to choose salvation.

... I don't know ... not sure what you mean

I do know that if Prevenient Grace means each individual that hears the gospel has an unimpeded opportunity to decide truth then statistics dictate that 1/2 those who get Prevenient Grace should become believers but that contradicts empirical reality.

It means Classical Arminians also believe in Total Depravity. Because of this, it means Prevenient Grace trespasses against the Will of those who are at Enmity with God...

Arminian Prevenient Grace is uninvited by the Totally Depraved...

 

[fastfredy0]

It means Classical Arminians also believe in Total Depravity. Because of this, it means Prevenient Grace trespasses against the Will of those who are at Enmity with God...

Arminian Prevenient Grace is uninvited by the Totally Depraved...

hmm ... sounds accurate ...never thought of it from that point of view.
Prevenient Grace is God's interference with (hypothetical) "free will" ... of course, my 'free will' (whatever that is defined as) never assented to be programmed by a depraved nature either. If God wasn't immutable I would ask Him to make up His mind

 

[ReverendRV]

hmm ... sounds accurate ...never thought of it from that point of view.
Prevenient Grace is God's interference with (hypothetical) "free will" ... of course, my 'free will' (whatever that is defined as) never assented to be programmed by a depraved nature either. If God wasn't immutable I would ask Him to make up His mind

You will have to get used to me. I often argue for our similarities, instead of for our differences...

 

[fastfredy0]

You will have to get used to me. I often argue for our similarities, instead of for our differences...

Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed ... perhaps your style is superior.

A lot smarter guys (like you) on this forum than the other one I visit. I wonder if Reform Theology tends to attract smarter Christians who can and like to make the puzzle pieces fit together? Of, course, God says somewhere he favors dummies so that might lessen the relative population of Christian Reform people.

 

[ReverendRV]

hmm ... sounds accurate ...never thought of it from that point of view.
Prevenient Grace is God's interference with (hypothetical) "free will" ... of course, my 'free will' (whatever that is defined as) never assented to be programmed by a depraved nature either. If God wasn't immutable I would ask Him to make up His mind

How about this one...

Arminian Prevenient Grace leaves a person in a State of Neutrality regarding God. Pelagianism is a State of Neutrality. Therefore, Arminian Prevenient Grace is Pelagianism with an Asterisk; it is Pelagianism* wearing Arminian clothing...

 

[ReverendRV]

Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed ... perhaps your style is superior.

A lot smarter guys (like you) on this forum than the other one I visit. I wonder if Reform Theology tends to attract smarter Christians who can and like to make the puzzle pieces fit together? Of, course, God says somewhere he favors dummies so that might lessen the relative population of Christian Reform people.

I am Simple, not Smart; Keep it Simple ******...

I suggest there is a lot of Wisdom in Simplicity...

But thanks...

 

[fastfredy0]

Arminian Prevenient Grace leaves a person in a State of Neutrality regarding God. Pelagianism is a State of Neutrality. Therefore, Arminian Prevenient Grace is Pelagianism with an Asterisk; it is Pelagianism* wearing Arminian clothing...

I might change the first statement to:

Arminian Prevenient Grace leaves a person in a State of Neutrality regarding God [and His method of salvation]

Pelagianism is a State of Neutrality

Pelagianism is such a bad idea that no one believes it even though people will believe anything... but let's go with the premise as true

Arminian Prevenient Grace is Pelagianism with an Asterisk; it is Pelagianism* wearing Arminian clothing...

I agree, Prevenient Grace is a small subset of Pelagianism.

Given:
Pelagianism is a Christian theological position that holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans by divine grace have free will to achieve human perfection.
Arminian Prevenient Grace (is there another one besides Arminia?) is a provision for people to give them the ability to choose or reject God salvificly.

 

[fastfredy0]

I am Simple, not Smart; Keep it Simple ******...

You don't come of as not being smart and although the smart can protray themselves as dummies, the reverse cannot be maintained ....so perhaps we can add humble to smart to your biography, but to smart and/or humble to say your humble.

I suggest there is a lot of Wisdom in Simplicity...

changing topics....I still have trouble with the concept of God's Simplicity

But thanks...

I'm just buttering you up to earn LIKEs and thus awards from the forum ...

 

[ReverendRV]

You don't come of as not being smart and although the smart can protray themselves as dummies, the reverse cannot be maintained ....so perhaps we can add humble to smart to your biography, but to smart and/or humble to say your humble.


changing topics....I still have trouble with the concept of God's Simplicity


I'm just buttering you up to earn LIKEs and thus awards from the forum ...

I'll have to leave in a minute...

 

[fastfredy0]

I'm just buttering you up to earn LIKEs and thus awards from the forum ...

@ReverendRV ....see, I'm just using you for points leading to rewards.

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[justbyfaith]

There is one question I must ask, does the bible teach such a doctrine as prevenient grace? If so, where?

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but,

Mat 5:44, But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45, That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rom 2:4, Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

[makesends]

ReverendRV said: "It means Classical Arminians also believe in Total Depravity. Because of this, it means Prevenient Grace trespasses against the Will of those who are at Enmity with God...

"Arminian Prevenient Grace is uninvited by the Totally Depraved..."

How about this one...

Arminian Prevenient Grace leaves a person in a State of Neutrality regarding God. Pelagianism is a State of Neutrality. Therefore, Arminian Prevenient Grace is Pelagianism with an Asterisk; it is Pelagianism* wearing Arminian clothing...

This is partly why I say that though they are more obviously wrong about the nature of God, at least Open Theism is more logically consistent than Arminianism or even Molinism.

 

[fastfredy0]

ReverendRV said: "It means Classical Arminians also believe in Total Depravity. Because of this, it means Prevenient Grace trespasses against the Will of those who are at Enmity with God...

"Arminian Prevenient Grace is uninvited by the Totally Depraved..."

Well, perhaps we make a mountain out of a relative mole hill ... the mole being "prevenient Grace" and the mountain being a "depraved nature" for which my "free will" never choose to be given me and is a violation of man's concept of Free Will where I, with Gordy's help, define Free Will as:
The choosing comes from the individual rather than an outside force the decision is made freely. Gordon Clark

Aside: God's will be done. Only His will is free by Gordy's definition.