Prevenient grace?

[ReverendRV]

Oh boy if they are one those people who are lets just say hard headed they won't like me

She is fine. I'm just funin'

 

[makesends]

I have never heard of this sect before and if they believe that God predermines our choices then they are sorely mistaken. He makes a perfect example of this in how he made things work

Arminian is not a sect, but a doctrinal mindset, way too near Pelagian.

As I states before we choose to sin and if their belief was the case that would implay God made them sin it seems more like a cop out from being responsible for their actions.

We do not operate on God's level. To say that God causes all things is just simple logic from the fact that nothing happens that is not a result of him having created. You, I would assume, agree that God knows all things; if he knew all things that would happen as a result of his creation, yet created anyway, logic demands that he not only caused those things, but caused those things intentionally.

That doesn't mean that man is a puppet, and that his choices aren't really his. It only implies that our notion of reality is nowhere close to the hard reality of God's economy. As the Bible says, this mode of life is but a vapor, compared to the what is to come.

And yes it may be a rheteric mention but it is still a mention and he wouldn't have mentioned it if it were not from God otherwise we can just say that it was just that a rhetorical mention but then if that is case then why was he speaking about it so seriously don't forget he wasn't just talking about the judgement throne there is a whole them to it

The Bible has many mentions of thoughts and concepts that are stated to be, or by implication shown to be, invalid. You don't really think, for example, that, "should we sin that grace may abound", means that the question is valid, just because God had it put in the Bible.

Also you will find that I speak in both scriptural terms and general terms meaning I see and understand the workings of his works how he has made creation even us to speak of it.

Even the concept of of hard work is built into our body.

Think of how the human muscle works in order to be made stronger it has to be torn and built up again torn and built up again it requires dedication and hard work to do. This is also how he is he values hard work he tears down builds all the time.

The virtue of hard work doesn't imply that God does not determine all things. There is no implication of displacement, there. It isn't, 'either he chooses or we choose', but both are true, and both are causal.

To be fair I do apologize if I get off topic that sadly is part of my brain damage and if I get talking about a subject I can accidently go another direction.

Three of my dearest friends have TBI, which exhibit different ways, but are close to high-functioning autism in some ways, which, frankly, I usually find rather refreshing. One of them, instead of the normal long goodbye, when she is done talking on the phone, says, "Ok, bye". I love that! I don't care for the pretense that most people seem to be unable to avoid presenting.

And if regardless I did mention that I wasn't saying any of this as a matter of fact it was my perspective. I prefer discussing the things of God and getting everyone into discussions rather than debates so a lot of the things I say are not set in stone take it with a grain of salt.

Fair enough.

 

[Eleanor]

Oh boy if they are one those people who are lets just say hard headed they won't like me

Oh boy, you are learning and she will help you see Scripture's view in context of all Scripture, always with the end that what Scripture presents is the authoritative truth of the matter, if that matters to you, if you are interested in more than just others' ideas.

 

[Agra Man]

Oh boy, you are learning and she will help you see Scripture's view in context of all Scripture, always with the end that what Scripture presents is the authoritative truth of the matter, if that matters to you, if you are interested in more than just others' ideas.

I do enjoy bouncing around our thoughts and how the scriptures speak to us it is always good to try to see from aside your own perspective.
However while I don't discount the scriptures in any way I have seen how effective gaining the truth from reading the scripture is and it is all based on interpretation every time supposidely from the holy spirit but he is not the author of confusion there is one truth one way and if we are so divided in our understanding of the word of God then that should be a red flag.

Jesus said he is the truth the way and the life he said the holy spirit will lead us to all truths, so for me personally I put far more trust in learning the truth from him personally Jesus himself than I do in the scriptures he isn't just the bible and he will indeed take you to the truth the real truth the real thing.

 

[Agra Man]

The way I see it if we are so divided on what the word of God says and we have done the same method for so long yet the truth still escapes us well the very definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing expecting different results.

So I wanted the truth I am not ok with the system we have allowed ourselves to be placed in the diverse denominations and the varied doctrines and the many more varied understanding or interpretation of those doctrines and within those doctrines the varied verses and understanding of those verse I mean is this not the very thing that the enemy does? divide confuse and conquor but we just accept it we don't see it and we aren't as effective as we could be as a result.

So I figured even with all my studies and all the hrowth in doing so but truth still escapes then I will just go to the source Jesus himself.

But to know the truth one would have to lay down everything they thought they knew everything they thought they understood you have to be a blank slate for him to mold the ntruth into your inner being

 

[Eleanor]

I do enjoy bouncing around our thoughts and how the scriptures speak to us it is always good to try to see from aside your own perspective.
However while I don't discount the scriptures in any way I have seen how effective gaining the truth from reading the scripture is and it is all based on interpretation every time supposidely from the holy spirit but he is not the author of confusion there is one truth one way and if we are so divided in our understanding of the word of God then that should be a red flag.

Jesus said he is the truth the way and the life he said the holy spirit will lead us to all truths, so for me personally I put far more trust in learning the truth from him personally Jesus himself than I do in the scriptures he isn't just the bible and he will indeed take you to the truth the real truth the real thing.

Oh boy, how can I put this gently? Don't know.

That is what is called presumption; i.e., taking undue liberty with God without warrant.

God has given his word to his people for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16).
The Holy Spirit will lead you into "all truths" through knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures, the reason God gave them to us.
Actually, to presume with God is disobedience, preferring you own way to the way he has established and revealed that we are to use.

Read the whole Bible for yourself, from Genesis 1:1 to Bonded Leather, to give you context in which to understand everything else there.

 

[Agra Man]

Arminian is not a sect, but a doctrinal mindset, way too near Pelagian.

We do not operate on God's level. To say that God causes all things is just simple logic from the fact that nothing happens that is not a result of him having created. You, I would assume, agree that God knows all things; if he knew all things that would happen as a result of his creation, yet created anyway, logic demands that he not only caused those things, but caused those things intentionally.

That doesn't mean that man is a puppet, and that his choices aren't really his. It only implies that our notion of reality is nowhere close to the hard reality of God's economy. As the Bible says, this mode of life is but a vapor, compared to the what is to come.

The Bible has many mentions of thoughts and concepts that are stated to be, or by implication shown to be, invalid. You don't really think, for example, that, "should we sin that grace may abound", means that the question is valid, just because God had it put in the Bible.

The virtue of hard work doesn't imply that God does not determine all things. There is no implication of displacement, there. It isn't, 'either he chooses or we choose', but both are true, and both are causal.

Three of my dearest friends have TBI, which exhibit different ways, but are close to high-functioning autism in some ways, which, frankly, I usually find rather refreshing. One of them, instead of the normal long goodbye, when she is done talking on the phone, says, "Ok, bye". I love that! I don't care for the pretense that most people seem to be unable to avoid presenting.

Fair enough.

Oh I see it's a doctrine well I guess that makes sense. That thing about how grace abounds if we sin well it is in the word of God and we either truly believe it to be the word of God or not we can't pick and choose what is truth and really I can't help but feel that we aren't really seeing the bible.

Jesus said simply lean not on your own understaniding so when we read the word it may seem like it is saying one thing but that doesn't mean that is what it is saying.

We actually lean on our understanding far more than we realize, we read the word of God were not listening to it there is a difference.

so all these wierd doctrines and stuff honestly I don't give them any thought I personally don't care what doctrine or teaching or denomination exists or whether it is true or not I'm after the truth and I won't accept anything less than that and hewill lead us to the truth but it requires absolute surrender what he says goes no adding our own interpretations no relying on the knowledge we have gained in the process no more adding and taking away to try to understand it or fit it into our theology we stand in that is mans way of understanding not God's.

THe idea of hard work though the reason I mentioned it was because sometimes you have to look past the words in the bible and see it in everything he created he has lessons and turths hidden in plain sight the word of God is alive and the world and all his creation speaks it


And as for your take on my brain issues I asm grateful your understanding about it not everyone understands how it ccan affect your thought process, the only good thing i can say about it is that people like that see things differently than most people and I think that is a blessing if you ask me.

 

[Agra Man]

Oh boy, how can I put this gently? Don't know.

That is what is called presumption; i.e., taking undue liberty with God without warrant.

God has given his word to his people for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16).
The Holy Spirit will lead you into "all truths" through knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures, the reason God gave them to us.
Actually, to presume with God is disobedience, preferring you own way to the way he has established and revealed that we are to use.

Read the whole Bible for yourself, from Genesis 1:1 to Bonded Leather, to give you context in which to understand everything else there.

As I said I am not discounting the scriptures however it is clear that scripture alone is not enough yes the holy spirit does lead us to all truths yet look at the (truth) we have from all our studies, the body is divided the word is contradicted by ourselves all the diverse doctrines and theologies doing nothing but sepearting and divindg confusing and even having believers attack each other with the very scriptures they claim to hold so highly yet treat it like any other series of letters and don't treat it as if it is the very word of God himself.

Even with my own beliefs if I claimed to have full understanding of it I would be a liar but because I know that the divsion and see the system we gave accepted in which division and confusion of the word of God and the truth is just a mass mess I figure what if I am not yet ready to fully study the word?

That is a really weird thing to say but I want the truth the real thing and I want to actually know the word of God not as a book or as knowledge or anything but the true gate to his very heart and that is not something many see it as but to me this is what the word of God is.

The method is the issue not the scriptures themselves, I have to be willing to admit that even with all the years of studying the truth still escapes me the whole truth at least and so Jesus was the answer to me I deciuded to go to him directly and he brought me to undertsnad that yes I was not ready to fully study it because there is a level of intimacya position with him he is calling us to first.

Then he opens your eyes then he speaks clearly the staic is gone you tune into his frequency and he slwoly but surely reveals things you never saw before.

But I am still in training not because I am in any way lacking but because I sumbit to his method not mine.

I cannot stress enough how highly I hold the word of God I actually am very offended when I see people treat it so casually against each other and sadly this is a major issue within the body in fact this forum out of all the forums I have been to is only the second one I have seen where we all come together talk learn and enj oy each others presence

Most others.... it's like bloodshed the thing about being online is that people tend to show who they truly are what they really think and believe because there is security of being behind a screen that is actually a thing that the mind does.

So seeing the state of the church in all the places I have been seeing how casually the word of God is thrown around as if it isn't the holy and undeniable righteous words of God himself well I wasn't going to accept that.

So it is not that I am discounting the scriptures but the method of which we understanding it is the issue.

 

[Eleanor]

As I said I am not discounting the scriptures however it is clear that scripture alone is not enough yes the holy spirit does lead us to all truths yet look at the (truth) we have from all our studies, the body is divided the word is contradicted by ourselves all the diverse doctrines and theologies doing nothing but sepearting and divindg confusing and even having believers attack each other with the very scriptures they claim to hold so highly yet treat it like any other series of letters and don't treat it as if it is the very word of God himself.

Even with my own beliefs if I claimed to have full understanding of it I would be a liar but because I know that the divsion and see the system we gave accepted in which division and confusion of the word of God and the truth is just a mass mess I figure what if I am not yet ready to fully study the word?

That is a really weird thing to say but I want the truth the real thing and I want to actually know the word of God not as a book or as knowledge or anything but the true gate to his very heart and that is not something many see it as but to me this is what the word of God is.

The method is the issue not the scriptures themselves, I have to be willing to admit that even with all the years of studying the truth still escapes me the whole truth at least and so Jesus was the answer to me I deciuded to go to him directly and he brought me to undertsnad that yes I was not ready to fully study it because there is a level of intimacya position with him he is calling us to first.

Then he opens your eyes then he speaks clearly the staic is gone you tune into his frequency and he slwoly but surely reveals things you never saw before.

But I am still in training not because I am in any way lacking but because I sumbit to his method not mine.

I cannot stress enough how highly I hold the word of God I actually am very offended when I see people treat it so casually against each other and sadly this is a major issue within the body in fact this forum out of all the forums I have been to is only the second one I have seen where we all come together talk learn and enj oy each others presence

Most others.... it's like bloodshed the thing about being online is that people tend to show who they truly are what they really think and believe because there is security of being behind a screen that is actually a thing that the mind does.

So seeing the state of the church in all the places I have been seeing how casually the word of God is thrown around as if it isn't the holy and undeniable righteous words of God himself well I wasn't going to accept that.

So it is not that I am discounting the scriptures but the method of which we understanding it is the issue.

Did I misunderstand you when you said: "I put far more trust in learning the truth from him personally Jesus himself than I do in the scriptures"?

 

[makesends]

Oh I see it's a doctrine well I guess that makes sense. That thing about how grace abounds if we sin well it is in the word of God and we either truly believe it to be the word of God or not we can't pick and choose what is truth and really I can't help but feel that we aren't really seeing the bible.

Jesus said simply lean not on your own understaniding so when we read the word it may seem like it is saying one thing but that doesn't mean that is what it is saying.

We actually lean on our understanding far more than we realize, we read the word of God were not listening to it there is a difference.

so all these wierd doctrines and stuff honestly I don't give them any thought I personally don't care what doctrine or teaching or denomination exists or whether it is true or not I'm after the truth and I won't accept anything less than that and hewill lead us to the truth but it requires absolute surrender what he says goes no adding our own interpretations no relying on the knowledge we have gained in the process no more adding and taking away to try to understand it or fit it into our theology we stand in that is mans way of understanding not God's.

THe idea of hard work though the reason I mentioned it was because sometimes you have to look past the words in the bible and see it in everything he created he has lessons and turths hidden in plain sight the word of God is alive and the world and all his creation speaks it


And as for your take on my brain issues I asm grateful your understanding about it not everyone understands how it ccan affect your thought process, the only good thing i can say about it is that people like that see things differently than most people and I think that is a blessing if you ask me.

God doesn't say, "...don't have your own understanding." —after all, that would be pretty much unavoidable, aside from incoherence, unconsciousness or demon possession. He says not to lean on it. To me, that sounds pretty close to don't trust my understanding, but we do have to go by our conscience, regardless.

So, there is no way to ignore your understanding as though to learn from Christ himself without any personal use of what he says. But whatever you make of what you think God has shown you, you still need to measure it by Scripture. THERE is your anchor for understanding, even if you think your inspiration is from Christ and not so much from Scripture, or from Christ's demonstration of what Scripture means. Never stop learning; never trust your arrangement of thoughts to be final.

 

[makesends]

Did I misunderstand you when you said: "I put far more trust in learning the truth from him personally Jesus himself than I do in the scriptures"?

Maybe he meant something like, "...than I do in the scriptures alone, without Jesus' revealing them to me."

 

[makesends]

You aren't in any way lacking? Hmmm. Reminds me of Revelation 3:17...

In context, I'm thinking @Agra Man means something like, "not because of the fact that I lack something, but because of submission to his way." ?

 

[Agra Man]

In context, I'm thinking @Agra Man means something like, "not because of the fact that I lack something, but because of submission to his way." ?

You hit the nail on the head and drove it home thank you my friend.

 

[Agra Man]

Did I misunderstand you when you said: "I put far more trust in learning the truth from him personally Jesus himself than I do in the scriptures"?

Thay depends on what you consider Jesus to be.

It is one thing to study and learn from the scriptures but then therre is the word made flesh the source the truth the way and the life. I can read and study scripture but that also leaves room for misinterpretation so instead what I do is first I go directly to him and wait until he says to read it he teaches us and speaks to us and we have him as the source if we do not understND THE SCRIPTURES FULLY.

sO WHEN i GO TO HIM DIRECTLKY Sorry dumb cap lock again.... But anyways when I go to him directly first and just tune into his frequency wait and wait and wait until I hear him say your ready then I go into the word and it is like reading for the first time even though you have read it so many times before.

 

[makesends]

As I said I am not discounting the scriptures however it is clear that scripture alone is not enough yes the holy spirit does lead us to all truths yet look at the (truth) we have from all our studies, the body is divided the word is contradicted by ourselves all the diverse doctrines and theologies doing nothing but sepearting and divindg confusing and even having believers attack each other with the very scriptures they claim to hold so highly yet treat it like any other series of letters and don't treat it as if it is the very word of God himself.

Even with my own beliefs if I claimed to have full understanding of it I would be a liar but because I know that the divsion and see the system we gave accepted in which division and confusion of the word of God and the truth is just a mass mess I figure what if I am not yet ready to fully study the word?

That is a really weird thing to say but I want the truth the real thing and I want to actually know the word of God not as a book or as knowledge or anything but the true gate to his very heart and that is not something many see it as but to me this is what the word of God is.

The method is the issue not the scriptures themselves, I have to be willing to admit that even with all the years of studying the truth still escapes me the whole truth at least and so Jesus was the answer to me I deciuded to go to him directly and he brought me to undertsnad that yes I was not ready to fully study it because there is a level of intimacya position with him he is calling us to first.

Then he opens your eyes then he speaks clearly the staic is gone you tune into his frequency and he slwoly but surely reveals things you never saw before.

But I am still in training not because I am in any way lacking but because I sumbit to his method not mine.

I cannot stress enough how highly I hold the word of God I actually am very offended when I see people treat it so casually against each other and sadly this is a major issue within the body in fact this forum out of all the forums I have been to is only the second one I have seen where we all come together talk learn and enj oy each others presence

Most others.... it's like bloodshed the thing about being online is that people tend to show who they truly are what they really think and believe because there is security of being behind a screen that is actually a thing that the mind does.

So seeing the state of the church in all the places I have been seeing how casually the word of God is thrown around as if it isn't the holy and undeniable righteous words of God himself well I wasn't going to accept that.

So it is not that I am discounting the scriptures but the method of which we understanding it is the issue.

I don't know if this rings a bell with you, but there is something to the many diverse doctrines within the universal body of Christ, the church, that is constructive, if in no other way, because even the best of us, and the best confessions, are not altogether accurate in our understanding, nor, certainly, in our expressions of what we believe. Nor are we complete in knowledge. Just one wild example: If I say, "God is omnipotent", I think it necessarily means a whole lot of things that it doesn't invoke in the minds of a lot of other believers. None of us is competent to do justice to describing what God is. But God uses us for that very purpose, none-the-less. We would do well to bear in mind that our understanding falls short.

But "the more the words, the less the meaning", and, "where there are many words, there is no lack of sin".

 

[Agra Man]

Good. So I must ask, on your journey have you fairly recently left one theological camp for another?

No I don't give theology any thought. how to best explain it.... it is like because all I see in what I am after is the turth just Jesus not any theology or understanding of doctrine just the truth just him I feel like a clean slate inside free from any chains of theology or understanding that I am after in the scriptures he jkust flows it into me there is no blockage of any of my beleifs or understanding himand I just naturally synce together now.

 

[Eleanor]

Thay depends on what you consider Jesus to be.

It is one thing to study and learn from the scriptures but then therre is the word made flesh the source the truth the way and the life. I can read and study scripture but that also leaves room for misinterpretation so instead what I do is first I go directly to him and wait until he says to read it he teaches us and speaks to us and we have him as the source if we do not understND THE SCRIPTURES FULLY.

sO WHEN i GO TO HIM DIRECTLKY Sorry dumb cap lock again.... But anyways when I go to him directly first and just tune into his frequency wait and wait and wait until I hear him say your ready then I go into the word and it is like reading for the first time even though you have read it so many times before.

Okay, I see what you mean.

 

[makesends]

Well, looking at it again, no, I'm not seeing that.

Lol, sometimes even something I wrote, myself, the next day I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what I was talking about or what I meant.

 

[Agra Man]

I don't know if this rings a bell with you, but there is something to the many diverse doctrines within the universal body of Christ, the church, that is constructive, if in no other way, because even the best of us, and the best confessions, are not altogether accurate in our understanding, nor, certainly, in our expressions of what we believe. Nor are we complete in knowledge. Just one wild example: If I say, "God is omnipotent", I think it necessarily means a whole lot of things that it doesn't invoke in the minds of a lot of other believers. None of us is competent to do justice to describing what God is. But God uses us for that very purpose, none-the-less. We would do well to bear in mind that our understanding falls short.

But "the more the words, the less the meaning", and, "where there are many words, there is no lack of sin".

our understanding may never be fully in the turth but that isn't the point we all are given different pieces of the puzzle each person gives a part of the kingdom that one doesn't but that isn't the same as the divsion in the body and in all this doctrine denoiminations ect.

Look at the system we are in, look how each denomination has it's own truth see how they attack each other calling each other false see how all the vast interpretations of the word of God not only divided us but the word of God itself.

These are the fruits of the enmy not of God so why would I align myself in that when the fruits are clearly there. My desire and my resolve to know the truth the real turth is what drives my passion for God and is what brought me into this new reality with him.

He is not just a God in heaven or an idea to talk about he isn't just our savior whpo died for us he is so much more than ever dreamed I don't even have the words to describe the absolute glory and wonder of his person as if any language any tongue even in heaven itself could not do him justice enough.

So I know what I am saying goes against the flow and it may seem wrong or even unbliblcal but the thing is I actually get results that is why I know I am on the right path.


you can study the bible all you want but what is your resolve to know the truth?

I speak these things because I found the truth I found the reality of who we are in Christ I reached a level with him where is real and here to the pint that I kid you not I call him my roomate he resides with me he visits often he manifests in my room and he teaches me all kinds of amazing things.

Not because of anything that I did except for the fact that I was sick of playing Christian I was sick of all this division and confusion I wanted the real thing I refused to accept anything but what he says the truth is.

I kneeld before him that night to me I was before the very throne of God himself and I made himnot just mt savior but I submitted to him utterly and made him king and L9ord ehst he says goes if he says this means that if he speaks at all I take him at his word no interpration no if and or buts either he is the truth or he sin't.

 

[Agra Man]

Just Jesus? Can you describe Him to me?

Hmmm...ok...anytime you express your beliefs you're expressing theology.

Well it may very well be theology but but I don't give it any thought as theology or anything I only see it as things he teaches me my mind set is not on man made words like that what call theology but rather I just see it as his teachings if I coinsider it to be theology my mind becomes less in tune with him and more on understanding what I cannot fully know as is.

instead of reading the word I listen to it what I mean by that is that I consider the word of God to be exactly that the word of God what do you do with a word? you listen to you hear it and we don't do it by our own understanding we listen by the spirit.


As now as for describing him. he is very protective of us there is a fire in his etes when the enemy attacks us he is the shepherd who keeps his flock and you don't want to mess with them because he is very protective andf will not hesitate to fight for us.

He is also very playfully sneaky I love it when he just shows us whats what and we never saw it coming it is one of those you thought moments

And his laughter is just hearing him laugh the sense of humor he has it just warms your soul and when he is sad you cannot stand to see that you want to hold him until he cheers up your heart cannot take seeing him like that.

He is also very stern at times I interrupted him once when he was teaching and he didn't say a word he gave me a very stern look and I instantly shut up. there is a lot of his personality his traits and attributes his sense of humor what makes him sad what angers him he is a real actual person we are supposed to know him intimately but how many people talk about things like that? It is weird to hear someone talk about him as if they know him like that because that isn't normal mosty don't know him like that if you ask someone to describe him yes you get the generqal descriptions but the personality of Jesus the traist he has knowing the nature of him like that as if you really have no limitations of being with him not just praying to him but speaking to him directly right in front of you.