Original Sin - and the sin nature

[Josheb]

I really don't need to read your post again and again. I read it and so many others just like it. And I am not the one with the colored glasses. That would be you and the color of your glasses is pure Calvin Grey.

You can post Romans 5:12 a dozen times and claim that there is a teaching of original sin presented there. That is simply not true. It says explicitly why death spread to all men. It is not because God imputed Adam's sin to anyone else. It is because all have sinned: "so death spread to all men because all sinned-- ".
There is not even a hint of original sin posited there. Read the commentary of any Calvinist/Reformed Theologian for Romans 5 and you will get some construct garbage about Adam being the federal head and we, being "in him", sinned when Adam sinned and thus fell when Adam fell. Talk about looking through colored glasses; that moves the color of the Calvin Grey to Calvin Black, so black that no light gets through at all.

Your treatment of verses 15-19 is almost laughable. It would be laughable except for denigration you impose upon the effects of Jesus Christ's obedience in comparison to the effects of Adam's disobedience. While verse 15 actually says that whatever are the effects of Adam's trespass upon humanity, the effects of the grace of Jesus Christ was MUCH MORE. But you reject that. You claim the effect of Adam's trespass is universal upon all humanity at birth, but yet you claim the effect of the grace of Jesus Christ is limited to only a few. What a terrible misreading of God's word.

That same superiority of life over death for all humanity as they come into this world is emphasized several times again in the next four verses.

You purposely mishandle verses 16-19 by separating into two distinct groups those who are affected by Adam's trespass and Jesus' righteousness. That is wrong. The text does not require that. There is only one group being considered. It is the whole of humanity at birth.

The message there is that were it not for Christ's death on the cross, all men would effectively come into this world eternally condemned, but since Jesus did live, die and rise again, all men do come into this world righteous and spiritually alive. The condition of each after that is strictly due to them, thus "death spread to all men because all sinned-- "

Have you ever hit your finger with a hammer?

 

[Mr GLee]

You're not suggesting physical fornication has nothing to do with God's commandment, as though fornication has nothing to do with physical virginity?

You don't preach deeds of the body have nothing to do with spiritual cleanness?

I was offering the word chaste virgin as applied of Timothy as member of the chaste virgin bride the church. It is not used of restraining from having a physical intercourse .It has to do with having other gods legion 3500 and rising called patron saints. Having the legion of his and hers gods before our one Holy Father. . therefore violating the first commandment

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

(Timothy had no sex change)

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Mankind called the bride is redeemed not those who refuse to procreate . It is not a his hers gospel as the Catholic must believe the Pope the head

Celibacy is another subject that Catholic use to make there all male priesthood as the standard and exalt the strange woman. Queen of heaven false prophets false apostles after the oral traditions of dying mankind . They teach because she supposedly did not have intecource. celibacy make her the Queen and supposedly did not procreate

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; (strange gods_) for they are virgins. These are they (men and women mankind ) which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These (mankind) were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Same bride of Christ mankind that the father promised to rename in Acts . .previously calling his wife Israel. The new name he renamed his eternal bride the church Christian. . a more befitting name to chaste virgin the bride of al the nations .

The husband the Creator did not name her Jezabel as queen .the strange woman

Isiah 62 5 For as a young man (Christ) marrieth a virgin,(the church ) so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the ( chaste virgin bride) so shall thy God rejoice over thee

Same bride (redeemed mankind) below

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; (queen of heaven )for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, (not men.alone but mankind) being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Ghada]

I was offering the word chaste virgin as applied of Timothy as member of the chaste virgin bride the church. It is not used of restraining from having a physical intercourse .

It is used for all saints purified in heart and life by repentance and washing of the blood from lust and sinning with the world.

Once again, if you are suggesting there is some kind of spiritual bride of Christ set apart from how we live, then that is not the mystery of the church on earth, but is the delusional mysticism of unrepented sinners.

It's the fraud of the soul being saved inwardly by faith, while still doing unrighteous works of the flesh.

"I am going to sin later, tomorrow, and most likely the next day, but God sees me as holy, sinless, righteous."

You don't agree with this statement do you? You're not trying to say the virgin bride of Christ on earth is pure inward, but corrupt outward?

 

[Ghada]

(Timothy had no sex change)

This is an irrelevant statement. He did have the life change from lusting and sinning to pure hearted righteousness and living holy:

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

The virgin body of Christ on earth is His church living holy as He is holy, from a purified heart and soul.

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Like all clothing, putting on the new man is clothing ourselves outwardly with the the new holy and blameless life in Christ Jesus.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The virgin church of Christ is now the virgin daughter of Israel (Both Jew and Gentile), that is kept in blameless living until the resurrection of the church to be the everlasting pure and blameless bride of the Lamb.

The old man is the old life of sinning we once lived, with a heart of lust. The new man is the new life of righteousness we now live with a pure heart of Christ.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
It is certainly possible to have outwardly righteous religion with the same old inward corruption of the heart and spirit, but that is not the inwardly pure and outwardly blameless religion of Jesus Christ and His body of chaste virgin saints on earth.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

And there is no such thing as a religion of somehow ever being pure within, while living unrighteous. That's New age inward divinity and outward sinning. Some unrepented Christian sinners preach the same thing as a sort of New Age Christian mysticism. They of course don't like calling it that, but in doctrine and practice, that's exactly what it is.

 

[Ghada]

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Celibacy is another subject that Catholic use

As with sex change nonsense, so is celibacy pertaining to the virgin daughter of Israel in Christ Jesus.

It's the purity of heart and blameless living that is the chase members of His body. The justified followers of Jesus walk with Him step by step and hand in hand, wheresoever He would go with them on earth, both in living and in ministry.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

to make there all male priesthood as the standard and exalt the strange woman. Queen of heaven false prophets false apostles after the oral traditions of

True. As will all false traditions and lying doctrines, it only takes one or two verses to shut them down for believers in the Bible.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

In this single verse, two things are proven about the husband and wife Joseph and Mary: They had children with her husband Joseph after Jesus was born from her virgin womb. And He was her firstborn son.

The Bible never speaks of any firstborn of a woman, that was the only one born of the woman.

The Word made flesh was the only-begotten Son of the Father, but He was not the only son born of God in the flesh.

dying mankind .

?? of course all natural bodies die on earth. All flesh is made by Christ born to die naturally.

Same bride of Christ mankind that the father promised to rename in Acts . .previously calling his wife Israel. The new name he renamed his eternal bride the church Christian. . a more befitting name to chaste virgin the bride of al the nations .

True, except the virgin body of Christ is not the bride of the Lamb, until the first resurrection of His church on earth. That bride will meet Him in the air at His second coming to earth from heaven.

 

[Mr GLee]

As with sex change nonsense, so is celibacy pertaining to the virgin daughter of Israel in Christ Jesus.

Celibacy pertaining to the bride of Christ call the freed woman as the mother of us all has no children of her own It has to do with not fornificating by destoing the first commandment to have no gods before our Creator to include one self as sons of God

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Having nothing to do with human reproduction (call no man on earth Holy Father (Pope) etc

Paul as a surrogate mother who suffered in pains of birth holding out the gospel till Christ was formed in Timothy
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

If our blessed sister in the lord Mary had 500 chidden she is still considered a chaste virgin just like the rest of the church, the gospel is not founded on human sex .

Catholicism is need of dying family as a oral tradition of men called their Holy Father ,Holy See, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of ...

 

[Ghada]

If our blessed sister in the lord Mary had 500 chidden she is still considered a chaste virgin just like the rest of the church, the gospel is not founded on human sex

True. Neither by birth, by blood, nor by gender.

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Catholicism is need of dying family as a oral tradition of men

Well, having an openly marxist pope certainly doesn't help the brand.

 

[Arial]

Yes, he was like us in every way. Every way but one actually. Can you guess what that is?

He was not born in Adam.

 

[Mr GLee]

You're not suggesting physical fornication has nothing to do with God's commandment, as though fornication has nothing to do with physical virginity?

You don't preach deeds of the body have nothing to do with spiritual cleanness?

Hi thanks for the reply
I was not saying that it was not one of God commandments ,

But it is not the kind of virgin used to represent the free woman as the mother of us all (the whole church) Mary she gave birth to the flesh of the Son of man In that way Mary is included as a chaste virgin bride the mother of us all just like Timohty. God is not a man

2 Corinthians 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Isaiah 62;1-5King James Version62 For Zion's (heavenly Jerusalem) sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee

In Acts that prophecy was fulfilled the father named the bride Christian a more befitting name for the bride of all the nations of the world Literally with no other meaning atached means. ." Residents of the unsend city of Christ", prepared for his chaste virgin bride the church named after her founder and husband Christ

Beautiful picture or parable of the chaste virgin bride themother of us all .

Revelation 12King James Version12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

 

[Ghada]

I was not saying that it was not one of God commandments ,

Sure. The point being there is no inward spiritual 'virginity', with outward physical fornication, drunkenness, thefts, etc...unrighteous works of the flesh.

Correct?

But it is not the kind of virgin used to represent the free woman as the mother of us all (the whole church)

That's New Jerusalem: the pure ministry of Christ of us all.

Mary she gave birth to the flesh of the Son of man In that way Mary is included as a chaste virgin bride the mother of us all just like Timohty.

Oh. So you're a Mariologist.
Not me.

God is not a man

Sure He is. He was a man in the flesh, and now He is the resurrected man Christ Jesus.

Isaiah 62;1-5King James Version62 For Zion's (heavenly Jerusalem) sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee

In Acts that prophecy was fulfilled the father named the bride Christian a more befitting name for the bride of all the nations of the world Literally with no other meaning atached means. ." Residents of the unsend city of Christ", prepared for his chaste virgin bride the church named after her founder and husband Christ

Beautiful picture or parable of the chaste virgin bride themother of us all .

Revelation 12King James Version12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The chaste virgin of Christ is His church of spiritual purity and blameless living.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rev 14 first pertains to all walking so in the flesh, even as He did, to be presented to Christ as His bride in the resurrection unto life.

That is when Rev 14 is fulfilled in heaven on Mt Sion:

But ye are coming unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[Bob Carabbio]

When people make statements like this, it's easy to see a few things.

They deny scripture.
They don't get the meaning of scripture
They either forgot or do not know Jesus.

How was Jesus TEMPTED AS WE ARE, if He Didn't have the "SAME SINFUL NATURE" YOU SAY we all have that works according to James 1??

And Why did Eve, and then Adam "without benefit of a sinful nature", throw God under the bus the first time they got the chance???

Sounds to me like we ALL have the SAME HUMAN NATURE. And I inherited NOTHING from Adam, except the MESS God made of the environment for Adam's save. I think you and I were perfectly capable of providing OUR OWN SIN, just like Adam did, and for the same reasons covered in James 1. JESUS WITH THE SAME HUMAN NATURE, never let HIS LUST (strong personal desire) CONCEIVE, and so remained sinless.

 

[Mr GLee]

Oh. So you're a Mariologist.

Not me.

Sure He is. He was a man in the flesh, and now He is the resurrected man Christ Jesus.

Jesus our brother in the Lord…..Edit by admin.

Some did know Christ the Holy Spirit of God who worked in the Son of man, Jesus, in the same way he works in all of his born-again Children.

Edit….

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God is not a man to say he is to blaspheme the name of our Holy Father

 

[Carbon]

How was Jesus TEMPTED AS WE ARE, if He Didn't have the "SAME SINFUL NATURE" YOU SAY we all have that works according to James 1??

Jesus was “100% man” and 100% God. So what do you mean how was he tempted as we are? Do you realize how silly your question is Bob?

And Why did Eve, and then Adam "without benefit of a sinful nature", throw God under the bus the first time they got the chance???

They didn’t. They threw themselves under the bus.
The first time they got the chance? They were declared good, and had no motive to sin. So they had no desire whatsoever to sin.

They were deceived.

Sounds to me like we ALL have the SAME HUMAN NATURE. And I inherited NOTHING from Adam,

Sorry Bob but you did not escape the sinful nature.
Jesus was born sinless righteous and holy. Only him, because he is God and willed it so.

except the MESS God made of the environment for Adam's save.

God’s creation was declared good. You can thank your father Adam for that, he is the blame. And you wouldn’t have done any better

I think you and I were perfectly capable of providing OUR OWN SIN, just like Adam did,

Thanks for your opinion. But I agree with scripture not your opinion

and for the same reasons covered in James 1. JESUS WITH THE SAME HUMAN NATURE, never let HIS LUST (strong personal desire) CONCEIVE, and so remained sinless.

What?
Do you realize what you are saying Bob?

 

[Arial]

How was Jesus TEMPTED AS WE ARE, if He Didn't have the "SAME SINFUL NATURE" YOU SAY we all have that works according to James 1??

Do you not realize that to have a sinful nature IS sinful? Why do you suppose the Bible refers to all of humanity as being in Adam and believers as being in Christ? What do you think Christ defeated? Was it Himself as well as all believers?

It is because He did not have a sinful nature that He was able to defeat the power of sin and death that come from being in Adam. If He too had a sinful nature He would need someone to defeat that power in Him through substitution also. Jesus had the same natural ability to sin as Adam and Eve did before they sinned. At the same time He could not sin because it was ordained by the Father, and His own will and purpose, (with the Father and Holy Spirit before His incarnation) that He would not sin, so as to be the substitutional Savior.

And Why did Eve, and then Adam "without benefit of a sinful nature", throw God under the bus the first time they got the chance???

They had the ability to sin or not to sin. We, because of what they did, do not. We do not always sin but always sometimes we do. One is one too many, and not only that we are a sinful being through Adam, but Adam and Eve were not created as sinful beings. They became sinful when they sinned against God through trusting the serpent instead of God. Sinful beings cannot approach the throne of God.

Sounds to me like we ALL have the SAME HUMAN NATURE. And I inherited NOTHING from Adam, except the MESS God made of the environment for Adam's save. I think you and I were perfectly capable of providing OUR OWN SIN, just like Adam did, and for the same reasons covered in James 1. JESUS WITH THE SAME HUMAN NATURE, never let HIS LUST (strong personal desire) CONCEIVE, and so remained sinless.

God made a mess? We all do have the same human nature----we are a being who sins. Is Adam your father? Then you inherited your sin nature
from your father. And he is your father in the flesh, for all are descended from Adam. Jesus was not. He was born of a woman but His Father is the Holy Spirit---not Adam.

Jesus said, "If a man lusteth in his heart after a woman he has committed adultery already." Whether he actually commits adultery or not. Sinful desires are sin.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus was “100% man” and 100% God. So what do you mean how was he tempted as we are? Do you realize how silly your question is Bob?

I would offer.

Eternal God who is not a man cannot be tempted . The Son of man, Jesus living in a dying body could be tempted to do his own will and not that of the Father. looking at the three days and nights promised demonstration of the Son of man, Jesus seen and the unseen Holy Spirit of Christ the work of sufferings began in the garden of Gethsemane . . . . suffering unto death (not dead) Jesus cried out in agony. Not as I will but you Father the one with power to raise those from dead. . those previously without Christ. . . dead in trespassand sin.

But the Father faithfully strengthened the Son three times . Three denoting the end of a matter. Then they moved to the second of three demonstration the Hill the bloody demonstration as a sign to the unbelieving world.

Jesus was 100% dying mankind having beginning of day and end of fleshly life .God is 100 % eternal God having no beginning of days or end of Spirit life .

I would offer it would be the father of lies the spirit of the antichrist who would try and deceive mankind that eternal God is Jewish man as King of kings and Lord of lords.

When the veil was rent there was no Jewish man as King of king sitting in the holy of holies . Satan fell.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Do you realize what you are saying Bob?

Yup. Jesus was Tempted AS WE ARE (Heb 4:15) What THAT means is detailed In James 1:14,15. Jesus DIDN'T LET his temptation "Conceive", and produce sinful actions. Simple as that.

Jesus said, "If a man lusteth in his heart after a woman he has committed adultery already." Whether he actually commits adultery or not. Sinful desires are sin.

So in your "theology", Jesus was "NEVER TEMPTED SEXUALLY", and Heb 4:15 is a false statement??

 

[Arial]

Yup. Jesus was Tempted AS WE ARE (Heb 4:15) What THAT means is detailed In James 1:14,15. Jesus DIDN'T LET his temptation "Conceive", and produce sinful actions. Simple as that.

So in your "theology", Jesus was "NEVER TEMPTED SEXUALLY", and Heb 4:15 is a false statement??

What a horrible thing it is you think of Jesus. Your understanding of Heb 4:15 is derived from what is known as confirmation bias. Why don't you address what I quoted Jesus as saying about lusting in one's heart? You cannot in good conscience and in rightly handling the word of God make Heb 4 contradict Jesus' own words.

Jesus was tempted in the sense that he was a human, as well as God (or do you deny that also?) and as one of us living in our world, all the same temptations of sin were around Him (the world, and the devil).

And why don't you address any of the things I said in my post with something that would actually show them to be false, rather than just giving your opinion. Support your beliefs.

 

[Josheb]

I was offering the word chaste virgin as applied of Timothy as member of the chaste virgin bride the church. It is not used of restraining from having a physical intercourse .It has to do with having other gods legion 3500 and rising called patron saints. Having the legion of his and hers gods before our one Holy Father. . therefore violating the first commandment

Do you believe Mary was not a virgin?

 

[Carbon]

I would offer.

Eternal God who is not a man cannot be tempted . The Son of man, Jesus living in a dying body could be tempted to do his own will and not that of the Father. looking at the three days and nights promised demonstration of the Son of man, Jesus seen and the unseen Holy Spirit of Christ the work of sufferings began in the garden of Gethsemane . . . . suffering unto death (not dead) Jesus cried out in agony. Not as I will but you Father the one with power to raise those from dead. . those previously without Christ. . . dead in trespassand sin.

But the Father faithfully strengthened the Son three times . Three denoting the end of a matter. Then they moved to the second of three demonstration the Hill the bloody demonstration as a sign to the unbelieving world.

Jesus was 100% dying mankind having beginning of day and end of fleshly life .God is 100 % eternal God having no beginning of days or end of Spirit life .

I would offer it would be the father of lies the spirit of the antichrist who would try and deceive mankind that eternal God is Jewish man as King of kings and Lord of lords.

When the veil was rent there was no Jewish man as King of king sitting in the holy of holies . Satan fell.

Thank for sharing your opinion.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What a horrible thing it is you think of Jesus. Your understanding of Heb 4:15 is derived from what is known as confirmation bias. Why don't you address what I quoted Jesus as saying about lusting in one's heart? You cannot in good conscience and in rightly handling the word of God make Heb 4 contradict Jesus' own words.

Jesus was tempted in the sense that he was a human, as well as God (or do you deny that also?) and as one of us living in our world, all the same temptations of sin were around Him (the world, and the devil).

And why don't you address any of the things I said in my post with something that would actually show them to be false, rather than just giving your opinion. Support your beliefs.

Why don't YOU explain how Jesus was TEMPTED AS WE ARE, without being tempted as we are. That would be a good start.