Original Sin - and the sin nature

[Josheb]

Why don't YOU explain how Jesus was TEMPTED AS WE ARE, without being tempted as we are. That would be a good start.

Oh! Oh! Oh! Can I answer that? Can I? Can I?

The word "tempted" can mean two things: either an exposure to something by which a person might succumb, or an inner drawing and enticement. The word can be translated "baited." The Hebrews 4:15 word for "tempted" is "pepeirasmenon". It means to be tried, tested, to attempt, or bait (G3985).

Christian doctrine tells us that Jesus is always both fully God and fully man. That - by definition - means the Hebrews verses used to compromise Jesus cannot be read the way Jesus-compromisers use it. Because Jesus is also and always fully God his fully human exposure to circumstances or conditions that would bait him are necessarily experienced differently than a mere human. James 1 proves it.

James 1:13-15
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

God CANNOT be tempted. God cannot be baited, and God does not have within him any lust by which He might possibly be carried away and enticed. The temptation (baiting) in the wilderness proved it. The James 1 text also brings up another aspect by which we KNOW Jesus' experience was different.

Every human who has ever existed after Genesis 3:6-7 has sinned and fallen short of God's glory and with that sin every single human has lived his life dead in sin and enslaved to sin. None of that applies to Jesus. Ever. After Genesis 3:6 Jesus is the only human to have ever lived a sinless life. Every time he was exposed to temptation - no matter the bait - he saw it, thought about it, and acted on it as a sinless man, NOT as a sinful man.

2 Corinthians 5:21
He made him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus knew no sin. There was nothing in his constitution that was sin. He did not know sin cognitively emotionally, behaviorally, relationally, or in any other way. He knew no sin. I reiterate: because Jesus was not sinful and all other humans are sinful, his experience with temptation was necessarily and inescapably different. There is absolutely no record in the entirety of scripture of Jesus ever having any lust by which he might be carried away and enticed.

Were that the case he would immediately have been disqualified from being the Messiah, he could not have paid the price for our sins, and his death would have been fruitless and meaningless.

Hebrews 2:18
For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

That is exactly true exactly as written. Jesus was baited in every way known to humanity, but he never had any lust in any of those situations by which he might be dragged away and enticed to sin.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was baited exactly as we are but because he did not have any lusts by which he might be dragged away and enticed his experience of temptation, his experience being baited was different. Having been exposed to all those baits, he sympathizes with our weakness. Jesus is not weak.



Lastly, there is the Christian doctrine of Christ's Impeccability. Jesus is incapable of sinning. The possibility that he might sin, any capability on his part that he might sin is sufficient to disqualify him from being the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice because the possibility is part of the problem to be solved. Adam was sown corruptible and mortal. Those in Christ are raised incorruptible and immortal. We are raised to be like Jesus was, is, and always will be: incorruptible. When scripture states he was tempted, or exposed, or baited to all temptations common to humanity that means he was exposed to sodomizing young boys, murderously cutting them up afterwards and then dining on their entrails when done. The word "all" means ALL. Jesus was not tempted with temptation-lite 101. ALL humanity's sin was dumped on him during his life and on the cross. Even those of Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and Josef Fritzl (look it up). Jesus, the Logos of God who is God was spat on, mocked, ridiculed, rebuked, challenged, impugned, solicited, and beaten during his ministry. He was abused for years before he ever trod to Calvary. If any of those occasions ever prompted the slightest thought apart from the will of God then that instantly disqualified him from being our propitiation. Because Jesus is God there has never been a fraction of a nanosecond when he was not also King and Lord of all - and that includes King and Lord over himself and every cell in his body of flesh.



People selectively use the two Hebrews verses, proof-texting them, to make them say something they cannot possibly mean when the whole of scripture is consulted. They have a Jesus-lite.

 

[Carbon]

There is a lot of false teaching on this subject of Original sin. As scripture says, Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1.

When I see false teaching I like to bring it up for discussion and expose it for the false teaching it is.
I have seen some people use Greek to try and prove their theory when they know none or very little Greek. I also have seen people try to twist and manipulate scripture to fit into their teachings. Yes, the enemy is very deceptive and has many tactics. It is very important to put on the armor of God. Ephesians 6:10-18.

Floating around the web presently is this false teaching, "The incarnation disproves Total Depravity and sin nature."

I won't mention the website, nor the person responsible for this false teaching.


Here is their argument using scripture.



There are many issues here .
First, this is from a person who has very little understanding of who Jesus is.
Their understanding of the Trinity is flawed.
Their understanding of the Hypostatic union is flawed.

Many, if not most times we see heresy coming from well-meaning people. Many are not out to teach false gospels but are trying to help a situation, here it's trying to keep Jesus from original sin.

The Roman Catholics do this by teaching Mary is the mother of God, then carry this too far. They claim she was born sinless, therefore Jesus escapes original sin. I'd say, wait a minute! Who is Jesus?

Let's look at a few verses,

Why they would emphasize flesh (sarx)? We know he came in the flesh. Do, I sense some sort of Gnostic teaching coming?


I believe the person who created this has no real understanding of the passage. I think they get lost with Jesus again.


Yes, he was like us in every way. Every way but one actually. Can you guess what that is?


There is no "if," he did come in the flesh.

Nope. Wrong. Oops.

This is the proof they do not know who Jesus is, and they do not have a good understanding of scripture. At least I hope that is what it is. Because there are false teachers out there that know exactly what they are doing.

Poor theology.

The breach of the covenant of works by Adam was imputed unto us. Adam wasn't placed in the COW he was created in the COW. This isn't merely because we are partakers of the same nature as Adam, but because we were created in the COW in Adam and have broken it in him. That's headship theology, which scripture teaches.

There are some who deny this, even many Arminians, and they claim Adam's sin only affected him.

However, scripture does teach the righteous imputation of the covenant breach to all men. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[b] leads to justification and life for all men.

So to deny such is to deny God's word itself.
As by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for the all have sinned.

We don't read that all men are sinful, but that all men have sinned.



Man is born dead. Man is born a sinner. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12.
I don't know about others but, scripture works for me.


You got that right!

No, not like all men. Wrong! oops. Men are not born innocent, or does God's wrath burn toward the innocent? among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Eph 2:3.

Man, by nature is corrupt. Babies have a human nature, therefore, they are corrupt. Babies are born with the absence of God's image.

Considering all this. If all men were not guilty of Adams's breach of the covenant, if his sin wasn't imputed unto us, then each of us would enter the world as innocent and as perfect as Adam did.

Jesus did come in the flesh. Jesus was born sinless and holy. He was not born with original sin.

But how? Denying scripture does not help to prove anything. It's a bad practice.

The answer to why Adam's sin (original sin) was imputed unto all his posterity, but not unto Jesus is really quite simple. These false teachers miss it. Because they don't know him.

Original Sin - and the sin nature​

Obviously, there are those who do not believe in the biblical doctrine of original sin.
But scripture teaches Original sin is a habitual deviation of the whole nature of man, or a turning aside from the law of God. It's really quite simple, it is the corruption of the whole man.
And because it is the corruption of the whole man, the scriptures speak of the "old man."
Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Isn't it obvious with these few passages alone?

How about scripture teaching it as "the body of sin."
Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Scripture teaches it is a law of the members.
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

There is much more on original sin.

Serious question to those who do not agree with this doctrine.

Why don't you?
Is it uncomfortable?
Is it something your church or pastor teaches against?

This is a very important doctrine.
Having a good understanding of original sin, helps us to understand how depraved we are, how helpless and lost we are, and how great grace is. As it gives us a peek into grace. And most of all what a wonderful, powerful Saviour we have.

 

[Arial]

Why don't YOU explain how Jesus was TEMPTED AS WE ARE, without being tempted as we are. That would be a good start.

Jesus was tempted in the sense that he was a human, as well as God (or do you deny that also?) and as one of us living in our world, all the same temptations of sin were around Him (the world, and the devil).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If Jesus was tempted as a HUMAN, then James 1:14,15 applies. YOU SAY THAT'S SIN in and of itself, but Jesus was without SIN, so temptation isn't SIN at all. It what you DO with that temptation where SIN comes in as James states.

Biblically Jesus (while He WAS GOD), walked AS A HUMAN, and the miracles He did, He did with GOD'S POWER, not His. Of course you've got to defend your "Original sin" fantasy, as your theological paradigm requires. I don't. I inherited NOTHING from Adam, other than the same HUMAN NATURE we all have, and nothing changed in Adam's nature, except that he immediately died spiritually like we all did when we sinned. The only thing that CHANGED after the "Fall" was the environment, when God CURSED THE GROUND. Adam and Eve weren't Cursed, they just lost their "Free lunch".

SO you still haven't explained how Jesus was TEMPTED AS WE ARE, without being tempted as we are.

 

[Arial]

If Jesus was tempted as a HUMAN, then James 1:14,15 applies. YOU SAY THAT'S SIN in and of itself, but Jesus was without SIN, so temptation isn't SIN at all. It what you DO with that temptation where SIN comes in as James states.

"But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it is conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Jesus did not have sinful desires. Sinful desires---that come from within us and are therefore a part of our nature---are sin. And James does not say there that it is what we do with those desires that is sin, it only says that is where sin incubates. It is what drives us to sin. Do you really believe Jesus had sinful desires? And you still haven't responded to what Jesus said on the subject. "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I inherited NOTHING from Adam, other than the same HUMAN NATURE we all have, and nothing changed in Adam's nature, except that he immediately died spiritually like we all did when we sinned.

You have the nature of the father of us all, Adam. And when Adam sinned mankind became a sinner. It is biology 101 really.

SO you still haven't explained how Jesus was TEMPTED AS WE ARE, without being tempted as we are.

I haven't explained it to your satisfaction but that is not because I have not explained it. No explanation but your own will satisfy you. YOu will consider all else invalid without giving it another thought.

 

[Mr GLee]

Do you believe Mary was not a virgin?

Hi Thanks

I would offer. Before she had Jesus. yes.

Joseph is credited as the father,

Dying flesh that could not profit gives birth to dying flesh . The Spirit of life (unseen) gives birth to spiritual life.

Literal virgin or spiritual like Timothy the whole church as the mother of all which would include born again Mary.

Do you believe Timothy was a virgin?

2 Corinthians 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ

Matthew 1 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

The Son of man Jesus was born of a earthy father and mother .Born again of the unseen Holy Father

Again the word virgin is used in two ways "physical, literal", dying temporal of the flesh which Jesus said of his it profits for nothing , And the "spiritual unseen eternal" as the son of God as born again Christian .

Satan's motive of operation. Take away the unseen gospel understanding and make it about the dying flesh and not the unseen power of faith

They must be mixed.. . historical dying temporal with the eternal. What God calls separate Satan all one in the same . what God calls one Satan divides and multiplies

The Jewish oral tradition at that time period involved two stage first a legal contract of marriage.Then followed later by a party with the husband taking his wife into his home.

In that way Joseph learned that Mary was expecting before she came to live with him, so planed to divorce but an messenger instructed him not to, and instead to take his wife into his home. Therefore, Joseph was already Mary’s legal husband at the time Jesus was conceived.
.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Jesus did not have sinful desires.

Then HE WAS NOT tempted in every respect AS WE ARE.

Simple as that. Biblically HE UNDERSTANDS first hand Because He's "Been there" (Heb 4:15). You say he hasn't, and CAN'T "Be there".

You have the nature of the father of us all, Adam. And when Adam sinned mankind became a sinner. It is biology 101 really.

Not even related. Adam's created nature NEVER CHANGED. He, and Eve, died SPIRITUALLY when they sinned. But their nature remained the same.

No explanation but your own will satisfy you.

A Biblical proof to the contrary would work nicely, but all I'm getting is "Interpretation" based on this or that Denominational / systematic paradigm.

 

[Arial]

Then HE WAS NOT tempted in every respect AS WE ARE.

Simple as that. Biblically HE UNDERSTANDS first hand Because He's "Been there" (Heb 4:15). You say he hasn't, and CAN'T "Be there".

Matt 5:27-28 "You have heard that it was said to those of old,"You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Not even related. Adam's created nature NEVER CHANGED. He, and Eve, died SPIRITUALLY when they sinned. But their nature remained the same.

Then why was all mankind refused access to the tree of life and Adam and Eve cast out of Eden? Why does Paul say that in Adam all men sinned? A being that sins is a sinful being. Adam was not a sinful being until he sinned. You simply do not believe in federal headship (which 1 Cor 15:20-22 and Romans 5:13-17 clearly show) and if you do not believe in the federal headship of Adam, then how can you claim the federal headship of Christ over the new man---those reborn in Him? And Adam and Eve also died physically, not only spiritually, as do we all. The spiritually dead aspect means we are by the very nature of who we are---sinners--- at enmity with God, and cannot even understand spiritual things. We have to be spiritually reborn in order to understand them, in which case, we believe them. (John 3)

A Biblical proof to the contrary would work nicely, but all I'm getting is "Interpretation" based on this or that Denominational / systematic paradigm.

That's the thing. I did give you biblical proof and did so again above, but you ignore that because it doesn't fit your already held beliefs. ANd it is not based on a denomination systematic paradigm as you say with utter contempt for rightly handling the word of God, but on the plain meaning of the words in say, Matt 5:27-28; 1 Cor 15:20-22; Romans 5:13-17. So if those passages do not mean what I am presenting them as meaning, what do they mean? That would be what is necessary from your side of the conversation. Otherwise you are simply doing what you say I am doing, and that I am not doing. You are giving no biblical proof of what you teach.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

Then HE WAS NOT tempted in every respect AS WE ARE.

Simple as that. Biblically HE UNDERSTANDS first hand Because He's "Been there" (Heb 4:15). You say he hasn't, and CAN'T "Be there".

Not even related. Adam's created nature NEVER CHANGED. He, and Eve, died SPIRITUALLY when they sinned. But their nature remained the same.

A Biblical proof to the contrary would work nicely, but all I'm getting is "Interpretation" based on this or that Denominational / systematic paradigm.

It looks as-if you've been given a false equivalancy (intentionally or not, I do not know).
Temptation does not equal sinful desire as the question was presented. That distinction is made earlier in this thread.
My personal opinion is that temptation, by and large is from without, sinful desire/lust comes from within. To be tempted is not sin, while to allow the temptation to become lust would be. Christ was indeed tempted, Holy Scripture says as much in many places, yet He was without sin. The temptation never became lust.
At what point that line crossed is much harder to define. When does the sinful temptation or thought become lust?

 

[Arial]

At what point that line crossed is much harder to define. When does the sinful temptation or thought become lust?

When it becomes a desire. And keep in mind that in regards to sin, it applies to more than just selective, individual sins. Sin is anything that is opposed to the very character of God, for that is the One whose image we were created to bear. We walk around always having sinful desires (thoughts) in us, but not desires for all sins. We will never be rid of them as long as we live in this flesh, in this world, that is under the influence of the devil and all its evil temptations. Our flesh and our spirit are constantly at war. It was not so with Jesus. And praise God His righteousness is imputed to us as though it were ours, while we await the fulfillment of the promise, and sin can no longer condemn us.

 

[Josheb]

Hi Thanks

I would offer. Before she had Jesus. yes.

Thanks. That is all I wanted to know.

 

[Ghada]

Not me.

Jesus our brother in the Lord…..Edit by admin.

Some did know Christ the Holy Spirit of God who worked in the Son of man, Jesus, in the same way he works in all of his born-again Children.

Edit….

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God is not a man to say he is to blaspheme the name of our Holy Father

Jesus Christ is no more a man of mortal flesh and blood, but the resurrected man and Lord of immortal flesh and bones.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus Christ is no more a man of mortal flesh and blood, but the resurrected man and Lord of immortal flesh and bones.

The son of man Jesus was a dying human like you I and must be born again. Like all Christians he will receive the promise of a new body as the bride of Christ just like anyone of the sons of God all die not receiving it.(Hebrew 11) What we will be is not known and the memories of earth will not be remembered or ever come to mind forever more .

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

1 John 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Why is it so important to you that God must have shape and form?

How could he work in us to both giving us ears to hear his understanding do his will that he gives us the power to perform it to his good pleasure .

God is not a man as a Jewish King of kings and lord of lords.

He remains invisible reigning in the heart of sons of God .

 

[Ghada]

The son of man Jesus was a dying human like you I and must be born again.

Whoa? You JW? Jesus is Jehovah's created christ angel made flesh?

Like all Christians he will receive the promise of a new body as the bride of Christ just like anyone of the sons of God all die not receiving it.(Hebrew 11)

Denying Jesus Christ is risen from the dead too? I think JWs at least say Jesus Christ is already bodily resurrected? Or do they?

What we will be is not known

What the enduring saints will be in the first resurrection of the church, is in the likeness of Jesus Christ's own resurrection on the 3rd day.

and the memories of earth will not be remembered or ever come to mind forever more .

On the new earth, yes.

That is, If we're not the wicked dead separated unto blackness of darkness for ever.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

1 John 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The first resurrection of the church has not yet appeared. We're still here on earth, and them in His presence in heaven await their own bodily resurrection with us.

The enduring saints in Christ Jesus know what we will be by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. A good glimpse is on Patmos.

Why is it so important to you that God must have shape and form?

So, just another manipulator of other's words. You didn't last long. Most people at least run out of arguments before resorting to such machinations. Or is that all the argument you have? I thought we were just getting started.

God has no shape nor form any man has ever seen, other than the resurrected man Christ Jesus sitting at His right hand on His throne.

So, you are JW? The Word was not God? Nor the resurrected God of Israel is not both Lord and God?

How could he work in us to both giving us ears to hear his understanding do his will that he gives us the power to perform it to his good pleasure .

He's called the Spirit of Christ. One of the three persons of the Godhead of the Bible.

God is not a man as a Jewish King of kings and lord of lords.

Duh.

He remains invisible reigning in the heart of sons of God .

His invisible Spirit does. His resurrected body sits on His throne with God.

You've bypassed that Scripture.

But, if you want to keep revealing your special stuff, go ahead. I'm always curious to see new twists and turns of man's own imagination.

 

[Mr GLee]

Whoa? You JW? Jesus is Jehovah's created christ angel made flesh?

Hi thanks for the reply. .

No not of the JW's( one of the confederacy) like that of Catholicism( Isaiah 8:12) Venerable dying mankind that lord it over the faith or understanding of the non-venerable pew warmers .Doctrines as commandments of dying mankind.

Jesus the Son of man is our brother in the Lord. . sent as a messenger or apostle. Our brother in the lord replied. Not as I will but you Holy Father the one with power

The word angel is a fake word some coined to create the illusion of another invisible authority other than our Holy Father . Its messenger not angel in both the old (Hebrew)and new(Greek) again not angel.

God is not a Jewish dying mankind.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Call no man on earth Holy adopting Father

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Denying Jesus Christ is risen from the dead too? I think JWs at least say Jesus Christ is already bodily resurrected? Or do they?

I am not sure of all their doctrines .I do know they follow a government of venerable men called elders as if the kingdom of God came by viewing the temporal things seen.

Christ the anointed teacher as eternal God cannot die .The Father kept Jesus the Son of man's body from corrupting and dying never to rise .

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

The Son of man Jesus was strengthened by the powerful Father when he sufferdr unto death (not dead never to rise)The Father as spoken of in Genesis 3:15 and Isaiah 53 striking his heel and the heel crushing the head of the father of lies.

That was in order to fulfill the prophecy of the three days and nights promised "demonstration as a shadow of the work of the lamb who was slain from the beginning. The actual work was during the foundation the lamb slain .On the 7th day God rested from all the work necessary to complete our salvation .

The first resurrection of the church has not yet appeared. We're still here on earth, and them in His presence in heaven await their own bodily resurrection with us.

The first resurrections signified by grave opening (not literally opened ) and the old testament saints entered the resurrection gate the promised glorious demonstration had come. .Today to be absent of the dying bodies is to be present .The gate will close on the last day under the Sun .

God has no shape nor form any man has ever seen, other than the resurrected man Christ Jesus sitting at His right hand on His throne.

So, you are JW? The Word was not God? Nor the resurrected God of Israel is not both Lord and God?

Jesus the Son of man as our brother in the Lord (dying powerless mankind) .

Jesus like us had the Spirit of Christ working in him. But like all of mankind when he dies his body returned to the dust .Some did know Christ who worked in the son of man. The son of man is dead when he died his born again spirit entered the resurrections gate.

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings and Lord of lords. When the veil was rent there was no Jewish man. . again as King of kings and Lord of lord . Satan could no longer deceive all the nations of the whole word that God is dying mankind .

He's called the Spirit of Christ. One of the three persons of the Godhead of the Bible.

Three is a oral tradition of dying mankind needed to make room for a queen of heaven . (His and hers gods called patron saints )

God is one Holy Spirit . The Holy Spirit, the adopting Spirit of sonship by which we can cry out Abba Holy Father. King of Salem .

Hebrews 7King James Version7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

His invisible Spirit does. His resurrected body sits on His throne with God.

You've bypassed that Scripture

2 Corinthians 5: 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him (Jesus the Son of man) no more. Therefore if any man (to include the Son of man Jesus) be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Ghada]

Hi thanks for the reply. .

No not of the JW's

No problem. JW is just the most commonly known group preaching a created christ.

( one of the confederacy)

Does your created-christ confederacy have a name?

.Doctrines as commandments of dying mankind.

If you mean there are doctrines of men preached for commandments of God, and vica-versa, then that's certainly true. It includes sabbath commanders, Mormons, and certain holiness Pentecosts and JWs,

Jesus the Son of man is our brother in the Lord.

So, would that be Jehovah Lord?

The word angel is a fake word some coined to create the illusion of another invisible authority other than our Holy Father .

Now, this is unique indeed. At least, your created christ is not the JW angel.

Are your Berean?

Created angels are not only given power and authority of God in heaven, but also have had it on earth.

God is not a Jewish dying mankind.

Not now. The Word was a Jew after the flesh and bodily dying naturally as all flesh on earth.

I am not sure of all their doctrines .I do know they follow a government of venerable men called elders as if the kingdom of God came by viewing the temporal things seen.

Bereans like to talk mystical too.

The kingdom of God is seen in the body of Christ living holy from a pure heart.

Just as the kingdom of God was seen daily by the walk of Jesus.

Those who separate God's kingdom of the Spirit within, but His kingdom of life body, are just more hypocrite separators of the soul from the life we live. There is no inwardly pure religion separated from outward works of the flesh.

Christ the anointed teacher as eternal God cannot die .

Definitely not JW.

Jesus did not die physically? Do Docetics have a confederacy?

The Father kept Jesus the Son of man's body from corrupting and dying never to rise.

Docetics say Jesus' body was only a temporary apparition, so that it did not actually die. Which would exclude ever rising from the dead. or as you say never dying, corrupting, nor rising.

The Son of man Jesus was strengthened by the powerful Father when he sufferdr unto death (not dead never to rise)

Unto death, but not dead, never to rise.

That excludes zombies at least.

So, you say unto death as only euphemism for apparitional disappearance?

That was in order to fulfill the prophecy of the three days and nights promised "demonstration as a shadow of the work of the lamb who was slain from the beginning.

Whoa. Cool. Very very unique. Even those saying God slew His only begotten Son in the foundation of the world, like pagan Zeus with Prometheus, they at least acknowledge He did die on a cross as a man.

You are saying that His 'death' on the cross was only a shadow of Him being slain by Zeus (I mean God) before the world began. Which makes since for apparitions appearing only as shadowy figures on earth. So, the Docetic Christ comes only as a holy ghost?

There certainly is the shadows of old being before the true things of the new, but I've never heard of the new things coming as shadows of old.

The actual work was during the foundation the lamb slain .

Right, Pagan Zeus and Prometheus.

There was also Hiel the Bethelite slaying his own firstborn son in the foundation of Jericho.

On the 7th day God rested from all the work necessary to complete our salvation.

And having-no-part-in-salvation by faith only, to boot.

The first resurrections signified by grave opening (not literally opened )

Right. Apparitionally only.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Today to be absent of the dying bodies is to be present .

You've had out-of-body experience to see what is 'really' present?

For enduring saints, being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord Jesus. They are the souls of the righteous presently at His thoneroom's altar

The gate will close on the last day under the Sun .

Egyptian eschatology too. Nice.

(dying powerless mankind) .

If you say so. It certainly fits with having no power not to sin with the devil.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Jesus like us had the Spirit of Christ working in him. But like all of mankind when he dies his body returned to the dust .

Back to JW. No more Docetic apparitions.

Some did know Christ who worked in the son of man.

His name is Jesus Christ. Not Jesus with Christ in him.

The son of man is dead when he died his born again spirit

Jesus Christ's 'born again' spirit.

entered the resurrections gate.

Right. Valhalla. Or maybe Stargate? (Great movie. A real cult favorite. Egyptian overtones too!)

Three is a oral tradition of dying mankind needed to make room for a queen of heaven .
(His and hers gods called patron saints )

All trinitarians are Catholic Mariologists and saints worshippers?

That hurts.

Your the confederacy like the Catholic church, not me.

God is one Holy Spirit .

True. And one Father and one Son.

The Holy Spirit, the adopting Spirit of sonship by which we can cry out Abba Holy Father. King of Salem .

True again. You're on a role. Just keep quoting Scripture, and you do fine as a Bible teacher.

Hebrews 7King James Version7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Like I said. Exactly.

2 Corinthians 5: 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him (Jesus the Son of man) no more. Therefore if any man (to include the Son of man Jesus) be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And again. Good job.

Rollercoaster beginning and middle, but great ending.

 

[Mr GLee]

Does your created-christ confederacy have a name?

It has a meaning . It applies to any sect that elevates dying mankind above all things written in the law and prophets.(sola scriptura) Mankind saying hear me I have the infalible interpretation . Like Nicole venerable dying mankind

Revelation 2 :4 `But I have against thee: That thy first love thou didst leave!

They lost their first love. . hearing what the Spirit says to the assembly. They are to do the first works believe God (not man) seen

Revelation 2 :5-7 remember, then, whence thou hast fallen, and reform, and the first works do; (believe God not seen )and if not, I come to thee quickly, and will remove thy lamp-stand from its place -- if thou mayest not reform; but this thou hast, that thou dost hate the works of the Nicolaitans, that I also hate. (the confederacy ) He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming -- I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Isaiah 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Obadiah 1:7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.

Back to JW. No more Docetic apparitions.

Not sure how you came to that ?.Jesus our brother in the lord the apostle prophet was given words from the father on two occasions ,

That whoever does the will of His father the same is his brother, sister and mother. call no man on earth Holy father Pope or Jws the discreet elders the ones they say apply to the number 144,000 .Even though that number of eligible infalible interprets was passed up years ago I think they are on their third season of 144,000.

The group discrete Elders is described as a "class" of "anointed" Christians that operates under the direct control of Jesus Christ to exercise "teaching authority" in all matters pertaining to doctrine and articles of faith. Taking away the teaching authority (sola scriptura)

Your the confederacy like the Catholic church, not me.

I am? How?

True. And one Father and one Son.

I said one Holy Spirit the Spirit that worked in the son of man Jesus to "both" hear and do the good pleasure of our Holy God. Jesus did the will of our Holy Father with delight . Jonas kicked against the pricks and wanted to die

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

True again. You're on a role. Just keep quoting Scripture, and you do fine as a Bible teacher.

Thanks>

 

[Ghada]

It has a meaning . It applies to any sect that elevates dying mankind above all things written in the law and prophets.(sola scriptura)

I see. This confederacy is not your own.

They lost their first love. . hearing what the Spirit says to the assembly. They are to do the first works believe God (not man) seen

The first works are obeying God's Spirit inwardly not to lust from the heart.

Both faith and 'believing God' alone is not a work, but a dead illusion.

Not sure how you came to that ?.Jesus our brother in the lord the apostle prophet was given words from the father on two occasions ,

Jesus the Lord is the only brother repented sons of God now have.

Are you preaching a created christ (though not an angel)?

The Word was God and was made flesh, when Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

Are do you preach the Lord Jesus Christ is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit?

 

[Mr GLee]

I see. This confederacy is not your own.

My own confederacy?What is your meaning of the word?

The first works are obeying God's Spirit inwardly not to lust from the heart.

Both faith and 'believing God' alone is not a work, but a dead illusion.

The faith of Christ is not alone it produces what he hopes for Called a work of faith

The law of faith . "let there be" and the testimony of God "was good" Can't separate faith from works. Its all together one thing

Jesus the Lord is the only brother repented sons of God now have.

Are you preaching a created christ (though not an angel)?

Jesus the Son of man is not the Lord of lords as the Christ . He is the first born of all the sons of God .

Not a angle? Did you mean not a messenger?

 

[Ghada]

The faith of Christ is not alone it produces what he hopes for Called a work of faith

The law of faith . "let there be" and the testimony of God "was good" Can't separate faith from works. Its all together one thing

Amen. I say the first works are resisting the devil within, not to lust with the heart. I believe the Ephesians were in danger of becoming Pharisee Christians: Standardized outward righteousness, but spiritually corrupt within.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.