Marian Dogmas

[Mr GLee]

From this, we learn that Mary is great because we all say so. And .............c. And that because they are saints they have authority over truth, so that if they call Mary great and immaculate, it is so, beyond question.

That would be blasphemous to say that because they are saints they have authority over truth, so that if they call Mary great and immaculate.,

Where does that Idea come from?

They have authority over whose truth?

 

[makesends]

That would be blasphemous to say that because they are saints they have authority over truth, so that if they call Mary great and immaculate.,

Where does that Idea come from?

They have authority over whose truth?

Agreed. I was being facetious, sarcastic.

But that is what @donadams seems to think, posting what saint after saint said, as if they are purveyors of the truth.

 

[donadams]

That would be blasphemous to say that because they are saints they have authority over truth, so that if they call Mary great and immaculate.,

Where does that Idea come from?

They have authority over whose truth?

From Christ and scripture
Matt 16:18-19

 

[donadams]

Agreed. I was being facetious, sarcastic.

But that is what @donadams seems to think, posting what saint after saint said, as if they are purveyors of the truth.

Scripture demands it! Matt 28:19
Christ expects it! Acts 1:8

Thks

*** Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

“BY THE CHURCH”!

1 tim 3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR OF TRUTH!

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

 

[makesends]

Scripture demands it! Matt 28:19
Christ expects it! Acts 1:8

Thks

*** Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

“BY THE CHURCH”!

1 tim 3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR OF TRUTH!

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

Yet we have a long-time cult claiming to be that pillar, when if they were, they would be presenting and defending the truth, instead of trying to maintain their power and fan-base at the cost of truth. They are self-exalting, and Mary-exalting, and Saint-exalting, and Idol-exalting, and edifice-exalting, and money-exalting, and everything but God-exalting.

 

[Arial]

Scripture demands it! Matt 28:19
Christ expects it! Acts 1:8

Thks

*** Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

“BY THE CHURCH”!

1 tim 3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR OF TRUTH!

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

Your posted scriptures are used in an unbiblical and self serving way by the Catholic church. A form of unbelief.

 

[makesends]

Scripture demands it! Matt 28:19
Christ expects it! Acts 1:8

Thks

*** Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

“BY THE CHURCH”!

1 tim 3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR OF TRUTH!

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

The thought that it might be worth going through each reference in your 'proof-texting', in order to show how exegesis shows your use of them wrong, would perhaps be a worthy exercise in it's own right, was quickly rejected by my laziness and lack of respect for the RCC. I'll just say this--that even if your use of them was right, you still have to show how the RCC and its 'teachers' are THE CHURCH.

Maybe, if your use of those texts is well done, you should listen to those of us here that are of The Church, the body of believers, the Body of Christ, for your instruction instead of holding to a system that has for hundreds of years thought itself an authority over the very Word of God.

 

[donadams]

Your posted scriptures are used in an unbiblical and self serving way by the Catholic church. A form of unbelief.

Scripture alone is not enough?

Is that your statement?

Thks

 

[donadams]

The thought that it might be worth going through each reference in your 'proof-texting', in order to show how exegesis shows your use of them wrong, would perhaps be a worthy exercise in it's own right, was quickly rejected by my laziness and lack of respect for the RCC. I'll just say this--that even if your use of them was right, you still have to show how the RCC and its 'teachers' are THE CHURCH.

Maybe, if your use of those texts is well done, you should listen to those of us here that are of The Church, the body of believers, the Body of Christ, for your instruction instead of holding to a system that has for hundreds of years thought itself an authority over the very Word of God.

Scripture alone is not enough?

Is this your statement?

Thks

 

[Arial]

Scripture alone is not enough?

Is that your statement?

Thks

No, that is not my statement as you well know.

Scripture interpreted by the Catholic church as referring to their entity and authority over all of Christiandom, is not scripture alone. It is a perversion of scripture.

 

[donadams]

No, that is not my statement as you well know.

Scripture interpreted by the Catholic church as referring to their entity and authority over all of Christiandom, is not scripture alone. It is a perversion of scripture.

How for instance do you know what books constitute the canon of scripture?

“Scripture is the only authority”allows for no interpretation that would be adding to scripture alone and a separate authority.

Thks

 

[Arial]

How for instance do you know what books constitute the canon of scripture?

I trust God in seeing to it that what is in it is what he intended to be in it, since it is the inerrant word of God. There is a reason why the books that are in the Protestant Bible are in there. Because they are all consistent with one another and are the work of those appointed by Christ for the work, before he died and in Paul's case after his resurrection.

There is a reason why the books in the Catholic Bible are not included. Because they are not consistent with one another in all places, and because the authors of those works carried not Christ given authority. And because the RCC had already shown itself to be corrupt and full of self exaltation and self interest above the authority of the Bible.

“Scripture is the only authority”allows for no interpretation that would be adding to scripture alone and a separate authority.

That is right. It is why the Protestant Reformation was so adamant about sola scriptura and why the Catholic church hated it. What is your point? Scripture itself names scripture as the only authority on God, Christ, salvation, and doctrinal foundation. It warns about adding to Scripture or taking away from it. Have you not read those warnings? They are quite dire. It names Christ as the only authority over his church. The fact that people interpret it wrong or any old which-a-way is beside the point. It says what it means, and it means what it says.

It's meaning is possible for anyone to ascertain when the illumination of indwelling Holy Spirit upon it. But he, the Holy Spirit only indwells those who have been born again into Christ. I do not recall you ever so much as mentioning the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life. The Catholic denomination has claimed them selves as the Holy Spirit, in essence, if not in doctrine, by naming it's Pope as the illuminator of Scripture, naming itself as the dispensers of grace, naming itself through their human priests, as the one that gives the new birth into the Catholic church, instead of into Christ.

 

[donadams]

I trust God in seeing to it that what is in it is what he intended to be in it, since it is the inerrant word of God. There is a reason why the books that are in the Protestant Bible are in there. Because they are all consistent with one another and are the work of those appointed by Christ for the work, before he died and in Paul's case after his resurrection.

There is a reason why the books in the Catholic Bible are not included. Because they are not consistent with one another in all places, and because the authors of those works carried not Christ given authority. And because the RCC had already shown itself to be corrupt and full of self exaltation and self interest above the authority of the Bible.

That is right. It is why the Protestant Reformation was so adamant about sola scriptura and why the Catholic church hated it. What is your point? Scripture itself names scripture as the only authority on God, Christ, salvation, and doctrinal foundation. It warns about adding to Scripture or taking away from it. Have you not read those warnings? They are quite dire. It names Christ as the only authority over his church. The fact that people interpret it wrong or any old which-a-way is beside the point. It says what it means, and it means what it says.

It's meaning is possible for anyone to ascertain when the illumination of indwelling Holy Spirit upon it. But he, the Holy Spirit only indwells those who have been born again into Christ. I do not recall you ever so much as mentioning the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life. The Catholic denomination has claimed them selves as the Holy Spirit, in essence, if not in doctrine, by naming it's Pope as the illuminator of Scripture, naming itself as the dispensers of grace, naming itself through their human priests, as the one that gives the new birth into the Catholic church, instead of into Christ.

Where does God tell you what is and what is not scripture?

 

[donadams]

I trust God in seeing to it that what is in it is what he intended to be in it, since it is the inerrant word of God. There is a reason why the books that are in the Protestant Bible are in there. Because they are all consistent with one another and are the work of those appointed by Christ for the work, before he died and in Paul's case after his resurrection.

There is a reason why the books in the Catholic Bible are not included. Because they are not consistent with one another in all places, and because the authors of those works carried not Christ given authority. And because the RCC had already shown itself to be corrupt and full of self exaltation and self interest above the authority of the Bible.

That is right. It is why the Protestant Reformation was so adamant about sola scriptura and why the Catholic church hated it. What is your point? Scripture itself names scripture as the only authority on God, Christ, salvation, and doctrinal foundation. It warns about adding to Scripture or taking away from it. Have you not read those warnings? They are quite dire. It names Christ as the only authority over his church. The fact that people interpret it wrong or any old which-a-way is beside the point. It says what it means, and it means what it says.

It's meaning is possible for anyone to ascertain when the illumination of indwelling Holy Spirit upon it. But he, the Holy Spirit only indwells those who have been born again into Christ. I do not recall you ever so much as mentioning the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life. The Catholic denomination has claimed them selves as the Holy Spirit, in essence, if not in doctrine, by naming it's Pope as the illuminator of Scripture, naming itself as the dispensers of grace, naming itself through their human priests, as the one that gives the new birth into the Catholic church, instead of into Christ.

Canon was selected by the apostolic authority of Christ in the council of Rome and approved (by the pope) in 381-2

Or Please provide a basis for the current New Testament canon that is independent of the Apostolic tradition transmitted though the Roman Catholic Church by the authority of Christ in the person of the pope! Matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19

The New Testament in its present form would not exist without the apostolic Church.

We must believe and obey both Christ and the church He founded on the apostles (16:18-19) to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19) Binding on all Christians the faith of Christ!

 

[donadams]

I trust God in seeing to it that what is in it is what he intended to be in it, since it is the inerrant word of God. There is a reason why the books that are in the Protestant Bible are in there. Because they are all consistent with one another and are the work of those appointed by Christ for the work, before he died and in Paul's case after his resurrection.

There is a reason why the books in the Catholic Bible are not included. Because they are not consistent with one another in all places, and because the authors of those works carried not Christ given authority. And because the RCC had already shown itself to be corrupt and full of self exaltation and self interest above the authority of the Bible.

That is right. It is why the Protestant Reformation was so adamant about sola scriptura and why the Catholic church hated it. What is your point? Scripture itself names scripture as the only authority on God, Christ, salvation, and doctrinal foundation. It warns about adding to Scripture or taking away from it. Have you not read those warnings? They are quite dire. It names Christ as the only authority over his church. The fact that people interpret it wrong or any old which-a-way is beside the point. It says what it means, and it means what it says.

It's meaning is possible for anyone to ascertain when the illumination of indwelling Holy Spirit upon it. But he, the Holy Spirit only indwells those who have been born again into Christ. I do not recall you ever so much as mentioning the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life. The Catholic denomination has claimed them selves as the Holy Spirit, in essence, if not in doctrine, by naming it's Pope as the illuminator of Scripture, naming itself as the dispensers of grace, naming itself through their human priests, as the one that gives the new birth into the Catholic church, instead of into Christ.

One Christian can ascertain that Christ is God by the scripture and the Spirit

“While at the same time”

Another Christian can ascertain the that Christ is not God by the scripture and the Spirit?

Fiddler on the roof theology

He is right?
And he is right?
They can’t both be right!
You know something, you also are right! Lol!

Thks

 

[Arial]

Where does God tell you what is and what is not scripture?

Poor you. I am so sorry that you have been so badly misled to the point of what? Seems like a sad, sad, product of isolation within the Catholic rhetoric. That you would even ask such a question shows there is no searching for God, just lip service, and incense, and pagentry. May God help you.

God tells us in the scriptures. A basic tenant of Christianity. The Bible is the inerrant word of God. We would know nothing about him beyond his existence and power that can be seen in nature, if he did not condescend to reveal Himself to us. Stop trusting in Popes and priests, and the traditions of men, and trust in God and his Son. Otherwise if there is any faith at all it is the wrong thing. Earthly "kingdoms".

 

[donadams]

Poor you. I am so sorry that you have been so badly misled to the point of what? Seems like a sad, sad, product of isolation within the Catholic rhetoric. That you would even ask such a question shows there is no searching for God, just lip service, and incense, and pagentry. May God help you.

God tells us in the scriptures. A basic tenant of Christianity. The Bible is the inerrant word of God. We would know nothing about him beyond his existence and power that can be seen in nature, if he did not condescend to reveal Himself to us. Stop trusting in Popes and priests, and the traditions of men, and trust in God and his Son. Otherwise if there is any faith at all it is the wrong thing. Earthly "kingdoms".

Something wrong with incense and pagentry in worship of God!

I agree it is inerrant!

Know nothing about God apart from scripture no!

Truth of divine revelation is communicated in many ways!

By the heavens: Ps 19:1
By the Father: Matt 16:17
By Christ in person: Matt 5:2 Mk 1:21-22 Lk 5:3 Jn 3:16 heb 1:1-2
By the Holy Spirit: 1 Tim 4:1
By the call of God: Gen 12:1
By the burning bush: Ex 3:2
Appears Lk 3:2
By Sacred Scripture: Lk 24:32
By Sacred Tradition: 2 thes 2:15
By the apostles preaching the word:
Acts 8:4 Acts 8:35
By Christ’s command that the apostolic churches teaches all men unto eternal salvation: Matt 28:19
By the Angels: Ex 3:2 Matt 1:20
Lk 1:28 Acts 8:26
By dreams: Matt 1:20
By visions: Acts 19:17
By unknown means: Lk 3:2
By preaching of John the Baptist: Lk 3:3-5

Not by “Scripture alone”!

Scripture? Yes
Scripture alone? No!
Scripture & Tradition? Yes

And Christ is the teacher! Not scripture alone! Heb 1:1-3
And His church matt 28:19 1 tim 3:15
A lot of scripture to ignore!

Not “scripture alone”!

Matt 5:14 are the apostles the light (truth) of the world or “scripture alone”?
Matt 6:33 must we seek the truth in the kingdom or “scripture alone”?
Matt 13:11 do the apostles know these or “scripture alone”?
Matt 18:17 must we hear the church or “scripture alone”?
Matt 28:19 do the apostles have the truth they are commanded to teach or “scripture alone”?
Lk 1:4 are we to be instructed or search and make our own doctrine according to “scripture alone”?
Lk 10:16 is the teaching of the apostles the teaching of Christ or “scripture alone”?
Jn 1:18 revealed by Christ not scripture alone?
Jn 8:32 do the apostles know the truth or “scripture alone”?
Jn 16:13 apostles are lead into all truth or “scripture alone”?
Jn 20:21 do the apostles have the same authority as Christ or “scripture alone”?
Acts 1:8 are the apostles the witnesses of Christ or “scripture alone”?
Acts 2:42 believe the apostles doctrine or “scripture alone”?
Acts 8:26 did God send and apostle or “scripture alone”?
Acts 8:31 must a man teach or “scripture alone”?
Acts 18:25 was he instructed or just read “scripture alone”?
Rom 10:15 preaching of the apostles or “scripture alone”?
1 cor 11:23 handed down tradition or “scripture alone”?
2 thes 2:2 word, letter or “scripture alone”?
2 thes 2:15 tradition (oral and a scripture) or “scripture alone”?
*this one alone is enough to refute “sola scriptura “!
Col 2:7 taught or “scripture alone”?
Eph 4:5 the faith revealed by Christ or “scripture alone”?
Heb 13:7 spoken the word of God or “scripture alone”?
Heb 13:17 do they teach you the faith or “scripture alone”?
1 Tim 3:15 is the church the pillar of truth or “scripture alone”?
1 Jn 1:3-5 declared unto you or you read “scripture alone”?
1 Jn 4:6 hear the apostles or “scripture alone”?
2 Jn 1:12 face to face with apostle or “scripture alone”?
Jude 1:3 the faith revealed by tradition (handed) to the apostles or “scripture alone”?

Thks

 

[1Thess521]

Something wrong with incense and pagentry in worship of God!

I agree it is inerrant!

Know nothing about God apart from scripture no!

Truth of divine revelation is communicated in many ways!

By the heavens: Ps 19:1
By the Father: Matt 16:17
By Christ in person: Matt 5:2 Mk 1:21-22 Lk 5:3 Jn 3:16 heb 1:1-2
By the Holy Spirit: 1 Tim 4:1
By the call of God: Gen 12:1
By the burning bush: Ex 3:2
Appears Lk 3:2
By Sacred Scripture: Lk 24:32
By Sacred Tradition: 2 thes 2:15
By the apostles preaching the word:
Acts 8:4 Acts 8:35
By Christ’s command that the apostolic churches teaches all men unto eternal salvation: Matt 28:19
By the Angels: Ex 3:2 Matt 1:20
Lk 1:28 Acts 8:26
By dreams: Matt 1:20
By visions: Acts 19:17
By unknown means: Lk 3:2
By preaching of John the Baptist: Lk 3:3-5

Not by “Scripture alone”!

Scripture? Yes
Scripture alone? No!
Scripture & Tradition? Yes

And Christ is the teacher! Not scripture alone! Heb 1:1-3
And His church matt 28:19 1 tim 3:15
A lot of scripture to ignore!

Not “scripture alone”!

Matt 5:14 are the apostles the light (truth) of the world or “scripture alone”?
Matt 6:33 must we seek the truth in the kingdom or “scripture alone”?
Matt 13:11 do the apostles know these or “scripture alone”?
Matt 18:17 must we hear the church or “scripture alone”?
Matt 28:19 do the apostles have the truth they are commanded to teach or “scripture alone”?
Lk 1:4 are we to be instructed or search and make our own doctrine according to “scripture alone”?
Lk 10:16 is the teaching of the apostles the teaching of Christ or “scripture alone”?
Jn 1:18 revealed by Christ not scripture alone?
Jn 8:32 do the apostles know the truth or “scripture alone”?
Jn 16:13 apostles are lead into all truth or “scripture alone”?
Jn 20:21 do the apostles have the same authority as Christ or “scripture alone”?
Acts 1:8 are the apostles the witnesses of Christ or “scripture alone”?
Acts 2:42 believe the apostles doctrine or “scripture alone”?
Acts 8:26 did God send and apostle or “scripture alone”?
Acts 8:31 must a man teach or “scripture alone”?
Acts 18:25 was he instructed or just read “scripture alone”?
Rom 10:15 preaching of the apostles or “scripture alone”?
1 cor 11:23 handed down tradition or “scripture alone”?
2 thes 2:2 word, letter or “scripture alone”?
2 thes 2:15 tradition (oral and a scripture) or “scripture alone”?
*this one alone is enough to refute “sola scriptura “!
Col 2:7 taught or “scripture alone”?
Eph 4:5 the faith revealed by Christ or “scripture alone”?
Heb 13:7 spoken the word of God or “scripture alone”?
Heb 13:17 do they teach you the faith or “scripture alone”?
1 Tim 3:15 is the church the pillar of truth or “scripture alone”?
1 Jn 1:3-5 declared unto you or you read “scripture alone”?
1 Jn 4:6 hear the apostles or “scripture alone”?
2 Jn 1:12 face to face with apostle or “scripture alone”?
Jude 1:3 the faith revealed by tradition (handed) to the apostles or “scripture alone”?

Thks

you have no idea what the doctrine/practice of Sola Scriptura is about

 

[donadams]

you have no idea what the doctrine/practice of Sola Scriptura is about

Care to Splain?

 

[1Thess521]

Care to Splain?

sure:
I would like to see you use these descriptions of Sola Scriptura.


From Catholic.com
the principle of sola scriptura ("Scripture alone"), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized

from New Advent
"The [first] objective [or formal] principle proclaims the canonical Scriptures, especially the New Testament, to be the only infallible source and rule of faith and practice (not the only source)"
" Protestantism, however, by no means despises or rejects church authority as such, but only subordinates it to, and measures its value by, the Bible,"

from James White:
First of all, it is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge. The Bible is not exhaustive in every detail. John 21:25 speaks to the fact that there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in John, or in fact in any book in the world because the whole books of the world could not contain it. But the Bible does not have to be exhaustive to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church. We do not need to know the color of Thomas’ eyes. We do not need to know the menu of each meal of the Apostolic band for the Scriptures to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church.

Secondly, it is not a denial of the Church’s authority to teach God’s truth. I Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as “the pillar and foundation of the truth.” The truth is in Jesus Christ and in His Word. The Church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The Church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The Church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.

Thirdly, it is not a denial that God’s Word has been spoken. Apostolic preaching was authoritative in and of itself. Yet, the Apostles proved their message from Scripture, as we see in Acts 17:2, and 18:28, and John commended those in Ephesus for testing those who claimed to be Apostles, Revelation 2:2. The Apostles were not afraid to demonstrate the consistency between their teaching and the Old Testament.

And, finally, sola scriptura is not a denial of the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and enlightening the Church.

from Wiki
It should be emphasized that this doctrine in no way denies tradition, reason, or experience as sources of truth. There is nothing in Sola Scriptura that eliminates other authorities. What it does say is that there is only one authority that can absolutely bind the conscience, that authority is holy scripture and that all controversies about doctrine and theology must be resolved in the final analysis by scripture.