Marian Dogmas

[Arial]

Something wrong with incense and pagentry in worship of God!

If that is all the people attend for and if there is nothing of substance behind it, just a gaudy display meant to take the place of holiness.

I agree it is inerrant!

Do you mean what is there in inerrant but the Catholic church has to finish the work of God by adding to it, and distorting what is there?

Know nothing about God apart from scripture no!

The Pope has to reveal God because God's self revelation was incomplete?!

Truth of divine revelation is communicated in many ways!

Oh look! All the references are in the Bible!

And Christ is the teacher! Not scripture alone! Heb 1:1-3
And His church matt 28:19 1 tim 3:15
A lot of scripture to ignore!

Where do we learn what Christ teaches? And why are you using scriptures to deny scripture alone?

Not “scripture alone”!

Why do all your references against scripture alone come from scripture alone?

 

[donadams]

sure:
I would like to see you use these descriptions of Sola Scriptura.


From Catholic.com
the principle of sola scriptura ("Scripture alone"), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized

from New Advent
"The [first] objective [or formal] principle proclaims the canonical Scriptures, especially the New Testament, to be the only infallible source and rule of faith and practice (not the only source)"
" Protestantism, however, by no means despises or rejects church authority as such, but only subordinates it to, and measures its value by, the Bible,"

from James White:
First of all, it is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge. The Bible is not exhaustive in every detail. John 21:25 speaks to the fact that there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in John, or in fact in any book in the world because the whole books of the world could not contain it. But the Bible does not have to be exhaustive to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church. We do not need to know the color of Thomas’ eyes. We do not need to know the menu of each meal of the Apostolic band for the Scriptures to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church.

Secondly, it is not a denial of the Church’s authority to teach God’s truth. I Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as “the pillar and foundation of the truth.” The truth is in Jesus Christ and in His Word. The Church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The Church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The Church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.

Thirdly, it is not a denial that God’s Word has been spoken. Apostolic preaching was authoritative in and of itself. Yet, the Apostles proved their message from Scripture, as we see in Acts 17:2, and 18:28, and John commended those in Ephesus for testing those who claimed to be Apostles, Revelation 2:2. The Apostles were not afraid to demonstrate the consistency between their teaching and the Old Testament.

And, finally, sola scriptura is not a denial of the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and enlightening the Church.

from Wiki
It should be emphasized that this doctrine in no way denies tradition, reason, or experience as sources of truth. There is nothing in Sola Scriptura that eliminates other authorities. What it does say is that there is only one authority that can absolutely bind the conscience, that authority is holy scripture and that all controversies about doctrine and theology must be resolved in the final analysis by scripture.

Of course it does!

You can’t believe the so-called reformers understanding of scripture and trent!

Thks

 

[1Thess521]

Of course it does!

You can’t believe the so-called reformers understanding of scripture and trent!

Thks

i quoted Catholic sources that contradict your strawman arguments you presented in post #397

 

[makesends]

Scripture alone is not enough?

Is that your statement?

Thks

Traps don't work well here, either.

 

[makesends]

Of course it does!

You can’t believe the so-called reformers understanding of scripture and trent!

Thks

What has the reformers' understanding of scripture got to do with trent? It is circular to put Trent into that discussion.

 

[makesends]

Where does God tell you what is and what is not scripture?

How does the RCC do it? Remember, you still need to list that succession from the apostles, in order to even begin to show that the RCC is THE CHURCH. Then you have to show that the RCC-style authority is biblical for modern day.

 

[donadams]

If that is all the people attend for and if there is nothing of substance behind it, just a gaudy display meant to take the place of holiness.

Do you mean what is there in inerrant but the Catholic church has to finish the work of God by adding to it, and distorting what is there?

The Pope has to reveal God because God's self revelation was incomplete?!

Oh look! All the references are in the Bible!

Where do we learn what Christ teaches? And why are you using scriptures to deny scripture alone?

Why do all your references against scripture alone come from scripture alone?

The doctrine of Scripture alone excludes any added interpretation.

And Christ commanded His apostolic church to teach all men. Matt 28:19

*** Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

“BY THE CHURCH”!

1 tim 3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR OF TRUTH!

NOT SCRIPTURE ALONE!
The bible alone was an invention of the heretic Wycliffe!

Not a doctrine of Christ or His apostolic church!

Christ acts in His church, councils, decrees, dogma’s, creeds!
Matt 28:28 acts 1:8

Revelation 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

 

[donadams]

i quoted Catholic sources that contradict your strawman arguments you presented in post #397

You quoted modernists

 

[donadams]

Traps don't work well here, either.

No trap just asking if you mean what you say?

 

[donadams]

What has the reformers' understanding of scripture got to do with trent? It is circular to put Trent into that discussion.

Jn 8:32

 

[1Thess521]

You quoted modernists

You are in error of what the doctrine called SoalScripture teaches.
TELL US ALL
what authority will accept for the definition/ description of Sola Scriptura?

 

[donadams]

How does the RCC do it? Remember, you still need to list that succession from the apostles, in order to even begin to show that the RCC is THE CHURCH. Then you have to show that the RCC-style authority is biblical for modern day.

Apostolic fathers were taught by the apostles in person

Ignatius

No bishop no church period!

Authority of Christ is in His church and He says so!
Matt 28:18 all authority
Matt 28:19 go teach and baptize all men (nations)
Matt 28:20 with His church

Thks

 

[Arial]

The doctrine of Scripture alone excludes any added interpretation.

No it doesn't. You do not understand what it means. What it excludes is an outside self named authority over all the body of Christ dictating interpretation. Setting itself and its own traditions above scripture and against it.

And Christ commanded His apostolic church to teach all men. Matt 28:19

Christ appointed apostles to lay the foundation of his church. Something that couldn't be done until after the resurrection and his ascension and the sending of the Holy Spirit. The church itself is not apostolic. That is a perversion of God's word. The Catholic religion named itself as an apostolic succession. Jesus did not do that. The Father did not do that. The apostles did not do that. So the claim is anethema.

*** Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

“BY THE CHURCH”!

Which is not the Catholic religion. See how you follow the Pope and not Christ?

1 tim 3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR OF TRUTH!

You should pay attention to that scripture and stop following the Pope. The Catholic religion is not the church. If it were it would not teach the insufficiency of the death and resurrection of Christ.

NOT SCRIPTURE ALONE!
The bible alone was an invention of the heretic Wycliffe!

Not a doctrine of Christ or His apostolic church!

Now you also claim the insufficiency of God. He needs the Pope to help him out!

Christ acts in His church, councils, decrees, dogma’s, creeds!
Matt 28:28 acts 1:8

Revelation 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Well, that passage says nothing about church councils, decrees, and dogmas or creeds. But which ones would you be referring to? The Heidelburg, Baptist Confession, Westminster?

 

[donadams]

You are in error of what the doctrine called SoalScripture teaches.
TELL US ALL
what authority will accept for the definition/ description of Sola Scriptura?

I will never accept any of the five sola’s or novelties

 

[1Thess521]

I will never accept any of the five sola’s or novelties

and AGAIN
that is not what was asked!!!

what authority will accept for the definition/ description of Sola Scriptura?

 

[donadams]

No it doesn't. You do not understand what it means. What it excludes is an outside self named authority over all the body of Christ dictating interpretation. Setting itself and its own traditions above scripture and against it.

Christ appointed apostles to lay the foundation of his church. Something that couldn't be done until after the resurrection and his ascension and the sending of the Holy Spirit. The church itself is not apostolic. That is a perversion of God's word. The Catholic religion named itself as an apostolic succession. Jesus did not do that. The Father did not do that. The apostles did not do that. So the claim is anethema.

Which is not the Catholic religion. See how you follow the Pope and not Christ?

You should pay attention to that scripture and stop following the Pope. The Catholic religion is not the church. If it were it would not teach the insufficiency of the death and resurrection of Christ.

Now you also claim the insufficiency of God. He needs the Pope to help him out!

Well, that passage says nothing about church councils, decrees, and dogmas or creeds. But which ones would you be referring to? The Heidelburg, Baptist Confession, Westminster?

The pope was appointed by Christ so obedience to a valid pope is the obedience to Christ
Isa 22:21-22 matt 28:19
You can ask Ananius over in acts 5:5

 

[donadams]

and AGAIN
that is not what was asked!!!

what authority will accept for the definition/ description of Sola Scriptura?

None I reject the doctrine of sola scriptura

But you should say what you mean and mean what you say!

Alone means alone!
Nothing added!
No interpretation not even scripture interpreting scripture!


Thks

 

[1Thess521]

None I reject the doctrine of sola scriptura

But you should say what you mean and mean what you say!

Alone means alone!
Nothing added!
No interpretation not even scripture interpreting scripture!


Thks

Again
I didn't ask if you accept or reject the doctrine of sola scriptura

I did ask
what authority will accept for the definition/ description of Sola Scriptura?

and that is exactly what I am asking

 

[1Thess521]

NOT SCRIPTURE ALONE!
The bible alone was an invention of the heretic Wycliffe!

Better far that I should read with certainty and persuasion of its truth the Holy Scripture, placed on the highest (even the heavenly) pinnacle of authority, and should, without questioning the trustworthiness of its statements, learn from it that men have been either, commended, or corrected, or condemned, than that, through fear of believing that by men, who, though of most praiseworthy excellence, were no more than men, actions deserving rebuke might sometimes be done, I should admit suspicions affecting the trustworthiness of the whole “oracles of God.”
-Augustine, Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 82.2.5


This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves.
-St. Augustine, quoted from his City of God, book XI, Chapter 3,

St. Augustine (A.D. 354–430)
De unitate ecclesiae, 10
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”

Irenaeus (ca. 150)
Against Heresies 3.1.1
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”

Clement of Alexandria (d. 215)
The Stromata, 7:16
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.”

Gregory of Nyssa (d. ca. 395)
On the Holy Trinity NPNF, p. 327
“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.”

Athanasius (c. 296–373)
Against the Heathen, 1:3
“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.”
<The Scriptures being “fully sufficient,” is simply a seed form of sola Scriptura.>

Basil the Great (ca. 329–379)
On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.”


Ambrose (A.D. 340–397)
On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102
“For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?”

 

[donadams]

Better far that I should read with certainty and persuasion of its truth the Holy Scripture, placed on the highest (even the heavenly) pinnacle of authority, and should, without questioning the trustworthiness of its statements, learn from it that men have been either, commended, or corrected, or condemned, than that, through fear of believing that by men, who, though of most praiseworthy excellence, were no more than men, actions deserving rebuke might sometimes be done, I should admit suspicions affecting the trustworthiness of the whole “oracles of God.”
-Augustine, Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 82.2.5


This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves.
-St. Augustine, quoted from his City of God, book XI, Chapter 3,

St. Augustine (A.D. 354–430)
De unitate ecclesiae, 10
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”

Irenaeus (ca. 150)
Against Heresies 3.1.1
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”

Clement of Alexandria (d. 215)
The Stromata, 7:16
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.”

Gregory of Nyssa (d. ca. 395)
On the Holy Trinity NPNF, p. 327
“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.”

Athanasius (c. 296–373)
Against the Heathen, 1:3
“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.”
<The Scriptures being “fully sufficient,” is simply a seed form of sola Scriptura.>

Basil the Great (ca. 329–379)
On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.”


Ambrose (A.D. 340–397)
On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102
“For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?”

Non say scripture alone or no councils dogma or interpretation