Man's responsibility.

[justbyfaith]

Are you now telling God what His justice is?

No, I am telling you what justice is.

 

[justbyfaith]

However Jesus says what eternal life He is referring to. "that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day."

Now, can you prove John 6 is not saying what it is saying?

Some are raised unto condemnation and not salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Holy Spirit will never testify to me that what you are saying is true, because it isn't. You have been shown by many different people on the forum that what you say is nothing more than a faulty interpretation from a faulty premise, with out of context isolated scriptures from here and there, with no exegesis, and no consideration as to whether or not it is consistent with other clear scriptures on the same subject. You have been shown this by putting those scriptures into their context and comparing them with clear scriptures on the same subject. Each one of these many different people adding the depth of their own wording and own work, articulating it in their unique way, yet all agreeing on what is being said. You have no excuse.

I will be praying for you; because the Holy Spirit will be testifying to you that what I have been preaching is true.

 

[Papa Smurf]

.............all are drawn to Christ at some point in their lives.

Hello Justbyfaith, since many, even today, continue to die w/o even knowing the Lord Jesus' Name, much less anything about Him and why they need Him to be their Savior, how can it possibly be said that, "all (without exception) are drawn to Christ at some point in their lives"

Now, there seems to be pretty substantial evidence that ALL w/o distinction have been drawn by Him, IOW, both Jews ~AND~ Gentiles/folks from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, etc., but what evidence shows us that the entirety of humanity, ALL w/o exception, have been drawn by Him, especially when the evidence that we do have (that many continue to die, even today, w/o ever hearing His Name) seems to say otherwise

Thanks

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - if this has already been discussed in this thread, I apologize, as I had just begun to skim this thread when I saw what you said (in post #12) and decided to reply to it. IOW, this is basically a blind post.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Calvinist has the only answer God gives to that question. According to his pleasure---meaning His purposes---and His will. Beyond that He does not tell us, yet you expect the Calvinist to be able to give you His reason, one that will satisfy you? The reason is in the mind of God.

If it is according to His psychic abilities to look down the long tunnel of time and see who will choose Him, and then He chooses them, as you say, then He absolutely would be choosing them according to some goodness in them. It would not be unconditional. It would be conditioned on worthiness of the creature. And it would not be grace or mercy or love.

Not according to psychic abilities; but because He exists outside of time and sees the end from the beginning.

Have you considered the following?

Pro 12:2, A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD: but a man of wicked devices will he condemn.

1Pe 3:12, For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Sounds like "merited favour" to me...

 

[justbyfaith]

They gave themselves a false assurance by trusting in their choice instead of believing.

You don't know whether some of them were staunch Calvinists.

 

[fastfredy0]

WHere'd you come up with THAT fiction?? "U" in TULIP states that "Election" is "Unconditional", and then the same Calvinists state that "Election" IS conditional. so which is it???

oh, is that what you were talking about ... given the previous context I thought you were talking about something else ... maybe my bad

Election is unconditional in that man is not the cause and that is the context of TULIP.
Election is conditional upon God causing/choosing one person to believe but 'conditional' in this context differs from the context of TULIP.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hello Justbyfaith, since many, even today, continue to die w/o even knowing the Lord Jesus' Name, much less anything about Him and why they need Him to be their Savior, how can it possibly be said that, "all (without exception) are drawn to Christ at some point in their lives"

Now, there seems to be pretty substantial evidence that ALL w/o distinction have been drawn by Him, IOW, both Jews ~AND~ Gentiles/folks from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, but what evidence shows us that the entirety of humanity, ALL w/o exception, have been drawn by Him, especially since the evidence that we do have (that many continue to die, even today, w/o ever hearing His Name) seems to say otherwise

Thanks

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - if this has already been discussed in this thread, I apologize, as I had just begun to skim this thread when I saw what you said (in post #12) and decided to reply to it. IOW, this is basically a blind post.

Hi, I will respond to this question one more time.

Those who have never heard of Christ have nevertheless been faced with the light of creation (Romans 1) and the light of conscience (Romans 2).

If they are obedient to the first two lights, they will be presented with the light of Christ (Romans 3); as ws the case with Abraham.

In being presented with the first two lights they are in fact being drawn towards Christ.

 

[fastfredy0]

Hi, I will respond to this question one more time.

Those who have never heard of Christ have nevertheless been faced with the light of creation (Romans 1) and the light of conscience (Romans 2).

If they are obedient to the first two lights, they will be presented with the light of Christ (Romans 3); as ws the case with Abraham.

In being presented with the first two lights they are in fact being drawn towards Christ.

So be specific ... what must one do to be saved if they never heard of Christ? Being "obedient to two lights" would be too general an explanation to be of any value; besides being obedient is WORKS SALVATION which contradicts scripture. Also, is the new gospel you are preaching ... is it more effective than believing in Christ? If your new gospel of salvation is more effective, perhaps missionaries should just use your alternate gospel.
Aside: Yes, we know everyone is without excuse in Romans 1

 

[justbyfaith]

So be specific ... what must one do to be saved if they never heard of Christ? Being "obedient to two lights" would be too general an explanation to be of any value; besides being obedient is WORKS SALVATION which contradicts scripture. Also, is the new gospel you are preaching ... is it more effective than believing in Christ? If your new gospel of salvation is more effective, perhaps missionaries should just use your alternate gospel.
Aside: Yes, we know everyone is without excuse in Romans 1

If they believe what creation tells them and begin to obey their conscience, they will be presented with the light of Christ in order that they might be saved.

Obeying light #1 or light #2 will not save them; but it will put them in a position where they can hear the gospel which does save.

In being given light #1 and #2, they are being drawn to Christ. Because if they are obedient to these lights, it will open the door for them to be able to hear light #3 (Romans 3).

 

[justbyfaith]

However Jesus says what eternal life He is referring to. "that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day."

Now, can you prove John 6 is not saying what it is saying?

John 6:44 is saying that a man is enabled to receive Christ when he is drawn to Christ.

It does not say in that verse that he is guaranteed to come to Christ in being drawn to Christ.

Jhn 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Everyone who is drawn to Christ will be raised up at the last day; not necessarily unto salvation (John 5:29, Daniel 12:2).

 

[justbyfaith]

The choice is not between believing in man's responsibility or God's culpability in man's condemnation. That is a false dichotomy. What is so false about it is that it makes the actions of man determine who God is. God is the Creator. We are the creature. We of all that creation in Gen. are created by Him in His image and likeness. Animals do not have any responsibility to their Creator, they simply do what God created them to do. Vegetation has no responsibility to their Creator they simply do what God created them to do. And all this He sustains, and His faithfulness reaches to the heavens and His glory is over all the earth.

Man has a responsibility to God, to worship Him, to obey Him, to honor Him, to submit to Him, and to reflect His image of righteousness. And man does not have a responsibility to choose Christ. Man has a responsibility to trust in Christ and it is the only way he can be reconciled to God, and it is the only way man can be found to be trusting God. It has nothing to do with choice but only to do with belief.

And fallen man is incapable of trusting in Christ or trusting in God, that is how fallen he became. It was not a mistake that Adam made. It is not mistakes we make when we sin. It is high treason against a holy God who created us. It is unimaginable grace and mercy that any are saved for He has no obligation to do so. And He did not send His Son as Savior for our sake, but for the Son's sake, and for His glory, not ours. He gives people to the Son as an inheritance and reward for the suffering He endured at the hands of the wicked. (Eph 1:3-6,15-21; John 17)

It takes the power and will of God to save. It takes His power and His will to change a hard heart into a heart that is moldable and pliable in His hands. Man cannot choose to do this and then do it. And no man can tell God that He must be a certain way and if He is not that way then He is unjust and He is culpable for sending them to hell and they have no responsibility for their going to hell. That is ABSURD! He is the Potter. We are the clay. He can do as He pleases with the clay and no one can stay His hand. From the very mouth of God: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

And arbitrary is not a synonym of the biblical concept of unconditional. As you have had illustrated to you over and over again, everytime you use them as synonyms.

God doesn't regenerate a man against his will...He waits for the man to give God permission to change His will.

Jesus is a gentleman. He stands at the door and knocks.

 

[justbyfaith]

Every human is ungodly.

Why God saves one and not another...is Gods decision and we are not told what it is based upon.

Clearly, according to the following scriptures, the one who is righteous is not ungodly.

1Pe 4:17, For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18, And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Jde 1:15, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Tit 1:1, Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Ti 6:3, If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

 

[justbyfaith]

God isn't making an offer. You have no scripture to prove such a thing, only scriptures you make say such a thing.

Yes...because clearly, if Romans 5:18 says this,

Rom 5:18, Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

and not this,

Rom 5:18, Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the <offer of the> free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

then the teaching of that scripture is Universalism.

However, we know that such a doctrine is heresy (see Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50, 26:45).

 

[justbyfaith]

The difference is, as we all know, you somehow think that it is our responsibility to choose, when in fact it is our responsibility to BELIEVE.

Believing is a choice that we make.

 

[justbyfaith]

Because I trust God. He tells us in His word who Jesus is and what, why, He did what He did, and how He did it. And He says that if we believe those things we are saved unto eternal life. And I do believe those things, and not just with my mind, for that is the first place they must be apprehended, but in my heart. Therefore I am of those given to Christ.

But there is no guarantee that you will endure unto the end...because there are many who have said what you are saying who haven't endured unto the end. Therefore, they were never saved in the first place? How do you know that you were saved in the first place? Because you haven't yet endured unto the end.

I will say that soil types #2 and #3 in the parable of the sower are living plants...for all practical purposes, saved. They are forgiven, they receive remission of sins.

Luk 8:13, They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Act 10:43, To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Only soil type #4 is of the elect.

 

[justbyfaith]

If He had, I would not believe and furthermore would not even consider it an issue.

As I showed above, your believing does not guarantee you to be of the elect.

 

[justbyfaith]

He says He will keep me. He says that He will lose none who the Father gives Him.

How do you know that you were given to Him; and not merely drawn to Him?

 

[justbyfaith]

1 Thess 1:2-5



2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly[a] mentioning you in our prayers, 3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers[b] loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

How does that tell a different story?
1 John 5:13
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

How does that tell a different story?
Romans 8:1616 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

How does that tell a different story?

I referenced 1 Thessalonians 1:5 in the kjv, sorry I didn't specify that before.

These scriptures tell a different story in that they speak of the assurance of salvation which basic Calvinism fails to provide.

Since anyone who thinks that they believe may have never been saved in the first place.

 

[justbyfaith]

God doesn't regenerate a man against his will...He waits for the man to give God permission to change <his> will.