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The Pope as the Antichrist

Augustine

“If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. … In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found” (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).
This is from the FIFTH CENTURY about a FIRST CENTURY Pope ... You have only proven that the myth was in place 300 years after the facts.
 
Less than I have on Julius Ceaser ... but I don't venerate his writings either ... or claim some infallible blessing of Christ on Earth passed through his touch. What can you PROVE to me using original sources, verified by scholars, about Linus and Clement?

Did they exist?
Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).
Luther probably had a valid point. We or YOU really are ANATHEMA
You have to be Catholic to be anathema.... are you Catholic now?
 
Last time the WORLD tried that ... God created Israel.

Isaiah 45:7 [NIV] I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
?????? I'm not following you.
 
so you have moved the goal posts.... interesting.... here is your quote -- 👇
Actually, here is my quote ...

What can you PROVE to me using original sources, verified by scholars, about Linus and Clement?

Did they exist?
Did their writings survive?
Did they believe heresies contrary to Apostolic teaching (like so many ECFs)?

You are a master of "selective reading" to answer what you are "waiting to speak" rather than what "people are asking".
 
?????? I'm not following you.
World War 2 was an attempt by Hitler and Germany to create a "Third Reich" (Third Empire) ... a Third great world-spanning empire following Rome, the Holy Roman Empire and this was to be the third). An Empire to stand for 1000 years and conquer the earth. With Jet Aircraft and Nuclear Weapons and Intercontinental Missiles (all in various stages of development) Germany had a real chance to achieve its goal from a human perspective.

The Holocaust, plus the reshaping of political boundaries in the Middle East that resulted from WW2, plus the new United Nations all resulted in the creation of the modern State of Israel.

QED.
The last time mankind sought to create One World Government, God placed a thumb on the scale and created ISRAEL.
 
World War 2 was an attempt by Hitler and Germany to create a "Third Reich" (Third Empire) ... a Third great world-spanning empire following Rome, the Holy Roman Empire and this was to be the third). An Empire to stand for 1000 years and conquer the earth. With Jet Aircraft and Nuclear Weapons and Intercontinental Missiles (all in various stages of development) Germany had a real chance to achieve its goal from a human perspective.

The Holocaust, plus the reshaping of political boundaries in the Middle East that resulted from WW2, plus the new United Nations all resulted in the creation of the modern State of Israel.

QED.
The last time mankind sought to create One World Government, God placed a thumb on the scale and created ISRAEL.
Hitler didn't have the infrastructure to bring in world domination as Rev 13 tells us will happen. Currently the infrastructure is being built and almost complete.
 
Look up the definition of the word in an English Dictionary.

Question:​

Could you explain anathema? Does the Church teach that Protestants are anathema because they don't agree with the Church?

Answer:​

The use of the word anathema has evolved during the history of the Church, and today it means the same thing as excommunication. (The word anathema is no longer officially used.) Because a person must be a Catholic to be anathema (excommunicated) the term does not apply to Protestants.
 
Look up the definition of the word in an English Dictionary.
Question:
Could you explain anathema? Does the Church teach that Protestants are anathema because they don't agree with the Church?

Answer:
The use of the word anathema has evolved during the history of the Church, and today it means the same thing as excommunication. (The word anathema is no longer officially used.) Because a person must be a Catholic to be anathema (excommunicated) the term does not apply to Protestants.
Meriam-Webser Dictionary:

anathema noun​

anath·e·ma
1 a : someone or something intensely disliked or loathed —usually used as a predicate nominative
1 b : one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority
2 a : a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication
2 b : the denunciation of something as accursed
2 c : a vigorous denunciation : curse

Back to my original point:

Luther probably had a valid point. We or YOU really are ANATHEMA (and it comes down to whether the POPE or SCRIPTURE has been lying to us.)


Note how ALL the definitions fit in one way or another.
  • Are we BLESSED for openly and deliberately rejecting the Catholic Church and her ANTI-CHRIST Pope, or is "anathema" an appropriate description using modern English?
  • Are you BLESSED for rejecting the words of God (and Word of God) to embrace the contrary teaching of corrupt men (and Mary worship), or is "anathema" an appropriate description using modern English?
 
Is that how the antichrist will first appear...or what he will become?
It's what he is. Some will/do recognise him for what he is; but many will not.
 
That is, assuming the MoL and AC are the same person. I find nothing in scripture explicitly stating that is the case.
It's not explicitly stated; but, Christ is the man of God and man of righteousness, so a man of lawlessness is in place of and against him (essentially the same as anti-Christ, but using a different expression).
 
Webster? before the Church? Oh my! o_O :poop:
I believe that was what the Church said about Copernicus before excommunicating Galileo for the heresy of claiming the earth went around the Sun. "Church above God" ... that should be the motto of Rome!
 
  • "Man of Lawlessness" is clearly a Title for a Person (whoever he is)
  • "Little Horn" is too symbolic for my over-literal tendencies to comfortably draw any conclusion about. In MYTHBUSTER terms, ["Plausible"] that it might be a person, but maybe not.
A "horn" was often worn on the head of a ruler, as a symbol of authority. When the Roman Empire disintegrated, it broke into ten kingdoms. Roman Catholicism was different from the other kingdoms, being physically small and weak, compared to the others.

  • "son of perdition" ... I always thought of Judas when I heard that phrase. A BIBLE search turns up 2 Thessalonians:
Judas Iscariot was a type of the anti-Christ, which is why he also bears that title.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 [NKJV]
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that Day will not come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


Reading that THEN (as a First Century believer holding a letter from Paul), I would probably have pictured a Roman Emperor with their claim to be gods, standing in the Temple in Jerusalem demanding worship or death (as was happening during the persecution).
The latter Roman Caesars passed on the religious "god-man" baton to the office of Pope.

Re. the temple: in the NT, the body of Christ is his temple; so, the anti-Christ (a.k.a. man of lawlessness/son of perdition) sits in the professing church, making out that he has all authority in heaven, on earth and under the earth, including the authority to change times and seasons and even the word of God (all this is claimed by the Pope and by no-one else).

I can see how the Revelation Literal Kingdom crowd could see that as ONE future person to appear as THE Anti-Christ. That still seems a stretch of the original hearers context and the symbolic nature of so much of Revelation.

I have to admit that I viewed the Reformation interpretation of POPE as Anti-Christ to be just the fiery rhetoric of the day ... typical of how they wrote. Looking hard at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, I think the POPE as ANTI-CHRIST actually has some scriptural merit. The Pope is the spiritual successor to the Roman Emperor claiming "god on earth" status and has an equal history of executing any that refuse to worship that authority. I would still lean away from a single individual interpretation and towards the OFFICE of BISHOP OF ROME, POPE, HOLY FATHER as the "son of perdition" that Paul warned about [and perhaps the "little horn" of Daniel]. Think about the harm Rome has done to the Word. Think of those lead astray as the "falling away".
Yes.

How many years was God silent from the last OT Prophet until the coming of Jesus?
Why would God suddenly become squeamish to fulfill prophecies and still keep His people waiting while He had more that He wanted to set in place?

I think the verses about "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." and "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." mean what they say.
Yes; although that specific scripture could have referred to A.D. 70.
 
It's not explicitly stated...
...and, therefore, any modern interpretation is inferential at best and rank speculation at worst. One of the governing exegetical precepts we can (and should) use when endeavoring to understand the antichrist's (not the MoL's) identity is the concept of original understanding. Exegetically speaking, what was written in John's letters was understood by John and meant for the understanding of his original readers (it was not originally intended for readers living two millennia later). This is another reason how and why we know the antichrist was not the Pope (there was no Pope in the first century and the closest approximation of a pope back then would have been James (or Peter, for those of RC persuasion).
...but, Christ is the man of God and man of righteousness,
Jesus would also be the man of Lawfulness (since he obeyed and fulfilled the Law). Yes?
...so a man of lawlessness is in place of and against him (essentially the same as anti-Christ, but using a different expression).
By that reasoning any measure opposite of Jesus might be added to the antichrist and, therefore, the antichrist might be assigned an almost endless number of attributes and every non-Christian (and a few Christians) could be made into an/the antichrist.


Jesus was the man of Lawfulness, yes?
 
...and, therefore, any modern interpretation is inferential at best and rank speculation at worst. One of the governing exegetical precepts we can (and should) use when endeavoring to understand the antichrist's (not the MoL's) identity is the concept of original understanding. Exegetically speaking, what was written in John's letters was understood by John and meant for the understanding of his original readers (it was not originally intended for readers living two millennia later). This is another reason how and why we know the antichrist was not the Pope (there was no Pope in the first century and the closest approximation of a pope back then would have been James (or Peter, for those of RC persuasion).
2 Thess. 2:1-4 (Webster)
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering to him.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is all about the "man of sin" (or "man of lawlessness" - the manuscripts are divided, but the meaning is almost identical anyway). His character and what he does are described in verse 4. He opposes God. He exalts himself above God. He sits in the temple of God and claims to be God. So, he is against God and takes God's place.

Anti-Christ means against Christ (who is God) and in the place of Christ, which is exactly what we have in verse 4. Not only that, but he sits in the temple of God (i.e. the professing church), so he is a professing Christian, which rules out 1st C. despots like Caligula or Nero.

In any case, we are told, in verse 2, that the revelation of the man of sin/son of perdition was not imminent (at the time of the letter), that a general apostasy had to happen first (as happened with the advent of the papacy). A little later, we are told that one restraining had to be taken out of the way first, before the man of sin would be revealed. Early Christians knew what this was (the Roman Empire), but Paul did not spell it out in his letter, presumably to give some protection from persecution, should the letter fall into Roman hands.

Jesus would also be the man of Lawfulness (since he obeyed and fulfilled the Law). Yes?
Yes.

By that reasoning any measure opposite of Jesus might be added to the antichrist and, therefore, the antichrist might be assigned an almost endless number of attributes and every non-Christian (and a few Christians) could be made into an/the antichrist.
I can't take this comment seriously. We are not talking about run-of-the-mill sinners; we are talking about the "man of sin", "son of perdition" and "anti-Christ". This is obviously something of unique and exceptional wickedness.
 
2 Thess. 2:1-4 (Webster)
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering to him.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is all about the "man of sin" (or "man of lawlessness" - the manuscripts are divided, but the meaning is almost identical anyway). .....
We're not discussing the MoL. This thread is about THE antichrist. I don't need from you scripture from Thessalonians explaining to me the MoL. What I need from you is scripture explicitly identifying the antichrist as the MoL........ or an acknowledgment the premise is entirely inferential. Nothing more was requested.
And which Law was it Jesus was the man of, the fulfiller of?
I can't take this comment seriously.
Then the absurdity of what you're posting should be recognized and..... not taken seriously. The words, "I can't take this comment seriously," is nothing more than a fallacious appeal to incredulity.
We are not talking about run-of-the-mill sinners
Non sequitur. No one has suggested we are talking about run of the mill sinners.
we are talking about the "man of sin,"
No, we're talking about the antichrist and no one else.
"son of perdition"
No, we're talking about the antichrist and no one else.
and "anti-Christ".
Yes, we're talking about the antichrist and NOT the MoL or SoP. The ASSUMPTION those three are the same person must be proven and what I've read so far is a pile of random coy-and-paste eisegesis that conflates the three terms as if they are identical when, in fact, scripture never states any such thing.
This is obviously something of unique and exceptional wickedness.
No so obvious if you cannot provide a single verse stating the antichrist, MoL and SoP are the exact same person.


Which Law was it Jesus obeyed and fulfilled?
 
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