Luther tried

[Carbon]

Luther tried to reform the Church. It was not his intention to leave the Church at first, but to Reform her.

Luther wrote to the pope.

"Most holy father, - may your holiness condescend to incline your paternal ear, which is that of Christ himself, toward your poor sheep, and listen with kindness to this bleating. What shall I do, most holy father! I cannot stand against the torrent of your anger, and I know no way of escape. They require of me that I should retract. I would be prompt to do so, if that could lead to the result they desire. But the persecutions of my enemies have spread my writing far and wide, and they are to deeply engraven on the hearts of men to be by possibility erased. A retraction would only still more dishonor the Church of Rome, and call forth from all a cry of accusation against her. Most holy father, I declare it in the presence of God, and of all the world, I never have sought, nor will I ever seek, to weaken, by force or artifice, the power of the Roman Church or of your Holiness. I confess that there is nothing in heaven or earth that should be preferred above that Church, save only Jesus Christ the Lord of all."

Luther really loved the Church of Rome and its pope. He had no intentions of destroying the Church. However, if we faith to keep in mind that the Holy Spirit opened Luther's eyes, not suddenly, but, by slow and progressive degrees.

They are evidenced of the important truth, that the Reformation was not a mere opposition to the Papacy. It wasn't war waged against a certain form or condition of things, nor was it the result of any negative tendencies.
Opposition to the pope was its secondary sign. A new life, a positive doctrine, was its generation principle - "Jesus Christ the Lord of all, and who should be preferred before all." And above Rome herself, as Luther intimates in the latter words of his letter. Such was essentially the cause of the Revolution of the 16th century.

 

[Carbon]

It's important to remember, that it was not Luther who separated himself from Rome, but Rome that separated herself from Luther.
Also, during this time Luther turned his focus to the church. While Leo X was absorbed in his interest in being a temporal prince.
Luther daily grew in knowledge and truth. He studied the decretals of the popes, and the discoveries he had made materially modified his ideas, he wrote to Spalatin - "I am reading the decretals of the Pontifs, and let me whisper it in your ear, I know not whether the pope is the antichrist himself, or whether he is his apostle; so misrepresented, and even crucified, does Christ appear in them."

 

[Ladodgers6]

Luther tried to reform the Church. It was not his intention to leave the Church at first, but to Reform her.

Luther wrote to the pope.

"Most holy father, - may your holiness condescend to incline your paternal ear, which is that of Christ himself, toward your poor sheep, and listen with kindness to this bleating. What shall I do, most holy father! I cannot stand against the torrent of your anger, and I know no way of escape. They require of me that I should retract. I would be prompt to do so, if that could lead to the result they desire. But the persecutions of my enemies have spread my writing far and wide, and they are to deeply engraven on the hearts of men to be by possibility erased. A retraction would only still more dishonor the Church of Rome, and call forth from all a cry of accusation against her. Most holy father, I declare it in the presence of God, and of all the world, I never have sought, nor will I ever seek, to weaken, by force or artifice, the power of the Roman Church or of your Holiness. I confess that there is nothing in heaven or earth that should be preferred above that Church, save only Jesus Christ the Lord of all."

Luther really loved the Church of Rome and its pope. He had no intentions of destroying the Church. However, if we faith to keep in mind that the Holy Spirit opened Luther's eyes, not suddenly, but, by slow and progressive degrees.

They are evidenced of the important truth, that the Reformation was not a mere opposition to the Papacy. It wasn't war waged against a certain form or condition of things, nor was it the result of any negative tendencies.
Opposition to the pope was its secondary sign. A new life, a positive doctrine, was its generation principle - "Jesus Christ the Lord of all, and who should be preferred before all." And above Rome herself, as Luther intimates in the latter words of his letter. Such was essentially the cause of the Revolution of the 16th century.

Precision on Luther account with Rome. He didn't want to destroy the Church, but to reform her back to Ad Fontes (Back to the sources; Scripture/God's Word). Which Luther held above any church. The Papacy was elevating the Pope position above Scripture which was the problem along with heretical teachings of indulgences and work-based salvation.​

 

[Arch Stanton]

Luther tried to reform the Church. It was not his intention to leave the Church at first, but to Reform her.

Luther wrote to the pope.

"Most holy father, - may your holiness condescend to incline your paternal ear, which is that of Christ himself, toward your poor sheep, and listen with kindness to this bleating. What shall I do, most holy father! I cannot stand against the torrent of your anger, and I know no way of escape. They require of me that I should retract. I would be prompt to do so, if that could lead to the result they desire. But the persecutions of my enemies have spread my writing far and wide, and they are to deeply engraven on the hearts of men to be by possibility erased. A retraction would only still more dishonor the Church of Rome, and call forth from all a cry of accusation against her. Most holy father, I declare it in the presence of God, and of all the world, I never have sought, nor will I ever seek, to weaken, by force or artifice, the power of the Roman Church or of your Holiness. I confess that there is nothing in heaven or earth that should be preferred above that Church, save only Jesus Christ the Lord of all."

Luther really loved the Church of Rome and its pope. He had no intentions of destroying the Church. However, if we faith to keep in mind that the Holy Spirit opened Luther's eyes, not suddenly, but, by slow and progressive degrees.

They are evidenced of the important truth, that the Reformation was not a mere opposition to the Papacy. It wasn't war waged against a certain form or condition of things, nor was it the result of any negative tendencies.
Opposition to the pope was its secondary sign. A new life, a positive doctrine, was its generation principle - "Jesus Christ the Lord of all, and who should be preferred before all." And above Rome herself, as Luther intimates in the latter words of his letter. Such was essentially the cause of the Revolution of the 16th century.

In a May 30, 1518 letter, Martin Luther wrote to Pope Leo X to insist that he wasn’t rejecting papal authority and that the accusations against him were false:

I know, most holy father, that evil reports are being spread about me, some friends having vilified me to your Holiness, as if I were trying to belittle the power of the keys and of the supreme pontiff, therefore I am being accused of being a heretic, a renegade, and a thousand other ill names are being hurled at me, enough to make my ears tingle and my eyes start in my head, but my one source of confidence is an innocent conscience.

Insisting that these accusations against him are untrue, Luther concludes the letter by promising that “my cause hangs on the will of your Holiness, by whose verdict I shall either save or lose my life. Come what may, I shall recognize the voice of your Holiness to be that of Christ, speaking through you.” [CA]

 

[Carbon]

In a May 30, 1518 letter, Martin Luther wrote to Pope Leo X to insist that he wasn’t rejecting papal authority and that the accusations against him were false:


Insisting that these accusations against him are untrue, Luther concludes the letter by promising that “my cause hangs on the will of your Holiness, by whose verdict I shall either save or lose my life. Come what may, I shall recognize the voice of your Holiness to be that of Christ, speaking through you.” [CA]

Yes, Luther didn't all of a sudden, instantly realize the truth in these things. It takes time

 

[Arch Stanton]

Yes, Luther didn't all of a sudden, instantly realize the truth in these things. It takes time

When Leo decided against Luther in June of 1520, Luther changed his tune. Rather than recognizing the voice of the pope to be that of Christ speaking through Leo, Luther instead denounced the pope as the Antichrist,

 

[Carbon]

When Leo decided against Luther in June of 1520, Luther changed his tune. Rather than recognizing the voice of the pope to be that of Christ speaking through Leo, Luther instead denounced the pope as the Antichrist,

Well, Luther sure had good reason.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Well, Luther sure had good reason.

Nobody has the authority to change what Christ instituted. Luther was wrong!

 

[Carbon]

Nobody has the authority to change what Christ instituted. Luther was wrong!

I would agree with you Arch, but, Christ didn't institute the Roman Catholic Church. Luther finally came to realize this and therefore, he was right.

 

[Arch Stanton]

I would agree with you Arch, but, Christ didn't institute the Roman Catholic Church. Luther finally came to realize this and therefore, he was right.

I think he saw corruption within Germany [Holy Roman Empire] but allowed power to cloud his judgement.

 

[Alive]

The most conservative estimates of the murders of Christians by the papacy is in the 10s of millions. These precious saints were tortured and horribly killed for centuries. Research the group of believers called the Waldensians for a pointed example.
The many histories written on these things is overwhelming. No single entity in history has caused more carnage than the Papacy. This cannot be debated.

Estimates of the Number Killed by the Papacy in the Middle Ages

 

[David1701]

Nobody has the authority to change what Christ instituted. Luther was wrong!

Well now, that's interesting! You are declaring that the "Pope" has no authority to change what Christ instituted: I agree!

So, when are you going to leave RCism and join the body of Christ?

 

[Arch Stanton]

Well now, that's interesting!

You should reread for clarity David....

Nobody has the authority to change what Christ instituted. Luther was wrong!

Christ instituted ONE hierarchical Church and gave the keys to PETER.

 

[atpollard]

Christ instituted ONE hierarchical Church and gave the keys to PETER.

Where did Christ discuss this hierarchy? What ever happened to ... Then they began to argue among themselves about who would be the greatest among them. Jesus told them, "In this world the kings and great men lord it over their people, yet they are called 'friends of the people.' But among you it will be different. Those who are the greatest among you should take the lowest rank, and the leader should be like a servant. Who is more important, the one who sits at the table or the one who serves? The one who sits at the table, of course. But not here! For I am among you as one who serves. - Luke 22:24-27 [NLT]

 

[Arch Stanton]

Where did Christ discuss this hierarchy?

Throughout the NT you see the hierarchy.

What ever happened to ... Then they began to argue among themselves about who would be the greatest among them. Jesus told them, "In this world the kings and great men lord it over their people, yet they are called 'friends of the people.' But among you it will be different. Those who are the greatest among you should take the lowest rank, and the leader should be like a servant. Who is more important, the one who sits at the table or the one who serves? The one who sits at the table, of course. But not here! For I am among you as one who serves. - Luke 22:24-27 [NLT]

The leader as the servant.... indeed

shepherd my sheep
keys to the kingdom
strengthen your brothers
the one who is least among all of you is the one who is the greatest
may another take his bishoprick

 

[atpollard]

Throughout the NT you see the hierarchy.

I don't.
I see "making disciples" type mentorship in an ongoing father-son (Paul-Timothy, Barnabas-Mark) relationship typical of a first century Rabbi-student relationship.

However, YOU said ...

Christ instituted ONE hierarchical Church

... so I was asking about where CHRIST instituted the hierarchy?
[From your answer, I assume we chalk that up to "Church Tradition" like Perpetual Virginity and Blessed Assumptions and Petrine Succession.]

 

[David1701]

You should reread for clarity David....


Christ instituted ONE hierarchical Church and gave the keys to PETER.

The body of Christ consists of brothers and sisters in the Lord - all equal before God. There are leaders, but not commanders; and, the leaders only have authority to declare as truth what has been declared already, in the Bible. In the period before the NT had been written down, the truths were declared orally.

 

[Arial]

Christ instituted ONE hierarchical Church and gave the keys to PETER.

Christ Instituted NO hierarchical Church.

 

[Ladodgers6]

In a May 30, 1518 letter, Martin Luther wrote to Pope Leo X to insist that he wasn’t rejecting papal authority and that the accusations against him were false:


Insisting that these accusations against him are untrue, Luther concludes the letter by promising that “my cause hangs on the will of your Holiness, by whose verdict I shall either save or lose my life. Come what may, I shall recognize the voice of your Holiness to be that of Christ, speaking through you.” [CA]

Keep reading

 

[Arch Stanton]

where CHRIST instituted the hierarchy?

the NT..... start with Mt 16