Lucifer is not a pre-fallen Satan

[GeneZ]

But the point remains that the king of Babylon was “Lucifer”, or “Morning Star”, as Lucifer came from Jerome’s Vulgate and is not found in ANY OT mss.

What you say is not a new argument.

Just the same?

What was found in other mss?

Perhaps this will solve the problem? - The Masoretic Text.

Jerome had nothing to do with that version.

Isaiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! ​

How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!​

No Jerome to be found... That rabbis would not have used his work.
Would that translation be suitable to you?

Interesting to note. Lucifer's meaning in Latin so happens to be perfectly *descriptive* of what verse 12 speaks of.

Your argument is frivolous, but you present it as if it were the end of the world.
It does not prove that Isaiah 14:12 is only talking about the king of Tyre.
And, your argument is a diversion away from discovering what verse 12 is talking about.

That being?

Why was the one tagged "Lucifer" by Jerome, a son of the morning to begin with?
Ever wonder what that speaks of?

There were angels specifically called "morning stars."
Not all angels qualified.

Job 38:7 reveals the two 'races' of angels created by God.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:4-7​

Those morning star angels had a special function in the prehistoric world.
Other angels were not morning stars.

According to Isaiah 14:12 the one we now call 'Satan" used to herald in the morning light for that prehistoric world.

An ancient pre-historic world that was destroyed before God created our current world.

So much to know once we stop being hung up in trying to make an argument over an appropriate descriptive name
some scholar decided to use.

grace and peace ...........................

 

[Deleted member 6]

What you say is not a new argument.

Just the same?

What was found in other mss?

Perhaps this will solve the problem? - The Masoretic Text.

Jerome had nothing to do with that version.

Isaiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! ​

How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!​

No Jerome to be found... That rabbis would not have used his work.
Would that translation be suitable to you?

Interesting to note. Lucifer's meaning in Latin so happens to be perfectly *descriptive* of what verse 12 speaks of.

Your argument is frivolous, but you present it as if it were the end of the world.
It does not prove that Isaiah 14:12 is only talking about the king of Tyre.
And, your argument is a diversion away from discovering what verse 12 is talking about.

That being?

Why was the one tagged "Lucifer" by Jerome, a son of the morning to begin with?
Ever wonder what that speaks of?

There were angels specifically called "morning stars."
Not all angels qualified.

Job 38:7 reveals the two 'races' of angels created by God.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:4-7​

Those morning star angels had a special function in the prehistoric world.
Other angels were not morning stars.

According to Isaiah 14:12 the one we now call 'Satan" used to herald in the morning light for that prehistoric world.

An ancient pre-historic world that was destroyed before God created our current world.

So much to know once we stop being hung up in trying to make an argument over an appropriate descriptive name
some scholar decided to use.

grace and peace ...........................

Believe what you wish, even if it’s error.

 

[GeneZ]

Believe what you wish, even if it’s error.

Thanks for the testing.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Back to the subject at hand...

For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and will again choose Israel, and will set them in their own land, and sojourners will join them and will attach themselves to the house of Jacob. And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them in the LORD’s land as male and female slaves. They will take captive those who were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them.[vss 1-2]

Here we see where God will set them free and even switch roles where they will enslave those who once enslaved them. How is this to take place?

When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: “How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers, that struck the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.’ Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will answer and say to you: ‘You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!’ Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers.[vss 3-11]

In vs 3 we see the LORD will give them rest from those who oppressed them. He was going to destroy the king of Babylon, not a pre-fallen Satan named "Lucifer". "Maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers" is him being buried and his body being 'worm food'. Again, this is not indicative of a pre-fallen Satan, as he never had a body capable of being buried and being 'worm food'.

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’[vss 12-14]

If this was a pre-fallen Satan he would have had no need to ascend to heaven as he was already there. This is the Babylonian king mocking God. Much like Nebuchadnezzar when he said "And who is the god who will deliver you out of my hands?”[Daniel 3:15b] All other nations had been defeated by the Babylonians up until this time of Daniel and their "gods" could not defeat Nebuchadnezzar, so he was sure the God of Israel would be no different, but he was horribly wrong, just like this Babylonian king was.

 

[donadams]

KJV

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The great red dragon satan, Lucifer, the devil!

Note how he was in both verses thrown to the ground.

Note: the term “Freemason” means sons of the morning” they worship Lucifer you will find this openly declared by pike in his book morals and dogma (sic) with his speaking of three world wars then the vines the open and public worship of Lucifer.
Thanks

 

[Deleted member 6]

KJV

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The great red dragon satan, Lucifer, the devil!

Note how he was in both verses thrown to the ground.

Note: the term “Freemason” means sons of the morning” they worship Lucifer you will find this openly declared by pike in his book morals and dogma (sic) with his speaking of three world wars then the vines the open and public worship of Lucifer.
Thanks

Lucifer was not in any OT mss. The KJV translators used Jerome’s Latin Vulgate rendering of “Lucifer”, as he was the one who used the word.

 

[donadams]

Lucifer was not in any OT mss. The KJV translators used Jerome’s Latin Vulgate rendering of “Lucifer”, as he was the one who used the word.

Of you mean St. Jerome one the successors of the apostles?

 

[Deleted member 6]

Of you mean St. Jerome one the successors of the apostles?

I don’t know that I’d call him that.

 

[Grumix88]

Lucifer is not the name of Satan he has another name, Satan means " the enemy " He has a name but it's not lucifer or Satan.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Lucifer is not the name of Satan he has another name, Satan means " the enemy " He has a name but it's not lucifer or Satan.

Seems like I read somewhere that some believe Satan is a title and not a name. I cannot remember where I read it, though.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Seems like I read somewhere that some believe Satan is a title and not a name. I cannot remember where I read it, though.

The Hebrew term 'śāṭān' means 'accuser' or 'adversary', so I think it tends to be more a title than a name - i.e. the Accuser.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Do you believe that Satan can possess an unregenerate man @ChristB4us ?

Doesn't he already?

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Doesn't he already?

Are you possessing ChristB4us?

I wasn't talking to you!

Not calling you Satan, brother.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Doesn't he already?

But just for funsies...I assume he ( Satan ) can. He does in Scripture. Or at the very least that ol "child of wrath" outlook. I see a lot of people blaming Satan for things that they were perfectly able to do themselves.

 

[Deleted member 6]

But just for funsies...I assume he ( Satan ) can. He does in Scripture. Or at the very least that ol "child of wrath" outlook. I see a lot of people blaming Satan for things that they were perfectly able to do themselves.

I see it that you are either in Adam or Christ. If in Adam, then you are under Satan's rule. If in Christ, you are under Christ's rule. So, it looks to me like the lost are in Satan (if that's an acceptable way of putting it) and the saved are in Christ.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I see it that you are either in Adam or Christ. If in Adam, then you are under Satan's rule. If in Christ, you are under Christ's rule. So, it looks to me like the lost are in Satan (if that's an acceptable way of putting it) and the saved are in Christ.

Agreed...but by possessed I mean taking over the person's body.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

.
Lucifer is nothing but an Italian word and Allah / Halla is the Hebrew word for Light in Isa 14.

Allah and Lucifer are simply two ROOT words that mean - LIGHT.

mix Allah and Lucifer together and You get words that mean light

Aluminum, Halo, Hologram, Halogen, Aladdin, HALLAL, Halley's Comet, Hallucination, Haloid, Haloscope, or Halometer, Halogenation, Halite, Haliograph, Heliography, Hallucinogenics, Hallucinating,... Hallucinator, Hallucinatory, Hallucinogen, Hallucinogenic, Hallucinoses, Hallucinosis, Halesia, Luculent, Lucis, Lucifugous, Lucerna lamp, Luzerno, Luciform, Lucid, Leucine, Lucite, Lucent, Luscher, LUSCA, Lucien, Luminescence, Lucentis, Lucifer

Halo........A luminous circle, usually prismatically colored, round the sun or moon,

Hologram......Illuminating AN object with coherent light Halogen..... lamp...LIGHT

Aladdin......ONE WITH a magic lamp OR LIGHT OR FIRE
HALLAL......LUCIFER...SHINING OR BRIGHT OR GLORY
Halley's Comet......a FIERY OBJECT IN SPACE ...GLOWING AND SHINING

Hallucination.... visual~ illusion,- images.

Haloid.....Form of a halogen Haloscope or Halometer.... Instrument to read bright spots
of light in the sky, often on a luminous ring or halo Halogenation....... Creation of

Halogen substance

Halesia - A tree with white bright flowers. Halite - naturally occurring crystalline shine
Haliograph - using mirrors and light for communications Heliography - photographic process in relation to exposure to light

Halothane....... A vapour fluorine that is unstable in light
Haloing....... A circular band of colored light around a light source
Halon-......carbons used as fire-extinguishing agents.
Halation.....tricks of lighting. Hallucination.... visual~ illusion,-
images.

Lucent.......Giving off light Luscher.....light-absorbing testing
LUSCA....... Italian.Baby name.... Meaning: Bringer Of Light. /
Lucifer Lucifer...... an Italian word meaning Light
Lucien.........Italian.Baby name. Lucent....... .Giving off light;
luminous Luminescence The emission of light Lucentis....... Loss of light.
Luculent - bright; shining Lucis - light Lucifugous - light- shunning or avoiding

Lucerna lamp) oil lamps Luzerno - glowworm (the plant was so called in allusion to its bright seeds);

Luciform- Having, in some respects, the nature of light; resembling light
Lucid- suffused with light

Leucine- a white crystalline essential amino acid Lucite - rings -a synthetic organic effected by light

are Allah and Lucifer very the same IN HISTORICAL meaning and definition..

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

.
Lucifer is nothing but an Italian word and Allah / Halla is the Hebrew word for Light in Isa 14.

Allah and Lucifer are simply two ROOT words that mean - LIGHT.

mix Allah and Lucifer together and You get words that mean light

Aluminum, Halo, Hologram, Halogen, Aladdin, HALLAL, Halley's Comet, Hallucination, Haloid, Haloscope, or Halometer, Halogenation, Halite, Haliograph, Heliography, Hallucinogenics, Hallucinating,... Hallucinator, Hallucinatory, Hallucinogen, Hallucinogenic, Hallucinoses, Hallucinosis, Halesia, Luculent, Lucis, Lucifugous, Lucerna lamp, Luzerno, Luciform, Lucid, Leucine, Lucite, Lucent, Luscher, LUSCA, Lucien, Luminescence, Lucentis, Lucifer

Halo........A luminous circle, usually prismatically colored, round the sun or moon,

Hologram......Illuminating AN object with coherent light Halogen..... lamp...LIGHT

Aladdin......ONE WITH a magic lamp OR LIGHT OR FIRE
HALLAL......LUCIFER...SHINING OR BRIGHT OR GLORY
Halley's Comet......a FIERY OBJECT IN SPACE ...GLOWING AND SHINING

Hallucination.... visual~ illusion,- images.

Haloid.....Form of a halogen Haloscope or Halometer.... Instrument to read bright spots
of light in the sky, often on a luminous ring or halo Halogenation....... Creation of

Halogen substance

Halesia - A tree with white bright flowers. Halite - naturally occurring crystalline shine
Haliograph - using mirrors and light for communications Heliography - photographic process in relation to exposure to light

Halothane....... A vapour fluorine that is unstable in light
Haloing....... A circular band of colored light around a light source
Halon-......carbons used as fire-extinguishing agents.
Halation.....tricks of lighting. Hallucination.... visual~ illusion,-
images.

Lucent.......Giving off light Luscher.....light-absorbing testing
LUSCA....... Italian.Baby name.... Meaning: Bringer Of Light. /
Lucifer Lucifer...... an Italian word meaning Light
Lucien.........Italian.Baby name. Lucent....... .Giving off light;
luminous Luminescence The emission of light Lucentis....... Loss of light.
Luculent - bright; shining Lucis - light Lucifugous - light- shunning or avoiding

Lucerna lamp) oil lamps Luzerno - glowworm (the plant was so called in allusion to its bright seeds);

Luciform- Having, in some respects, the nature of light; resembling light
Lucid- suffused with light

Leucine- a white crystalline essential amino acid Lucite - rings -a synthetic organic effected by light

are Allah and Lucifer very the same IN HISTORICAL meaning and definition..

You're making a lot of connections that are... well, wrong.

The Latin word Lux means light, and is the root of many of these words.

Allah is an Arabic word that means god, not light.

Halo- is from Greek, and it means salt. Halogens are things that make salts when combined with metals.

Holo- is also from Greek, and it means whole.

Lucifer means light-giver, and it isn't even a name, its an epithet. Also, the epithet was not originally ascribed to Satan.

Just because words look similar doesn't mean they have common origins.

-Jarrod

 

[GeneZ]

That’s the thing, Lucifer isn’t in the original Hebrew mss, any of them. The KJV translators took that name from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate. It really means “bright morning star” or “morning star” may be more apt.

Lucifer was a chosen name because it simply means "bearer of light."

Apparently, Satan was one of the chief "morning star" type angels mentioned in Job 38.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?​

Tell me, if you understand.​

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!​

Who stretched a measuring line across it?​

6 On what were its footings set,​

or who laid its cornerstone—​

7 while the morning stars sang together​

and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

​

That passage reveals that there were two different races of angels.
Some of them were light bearers. The others were not.

grace and peace ..........

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

.
ooh yea so very true

Wycliffes _ Shillelagh - you are absolutely right Allah and Lucifer of course do not have common origins
what is common about these two ancient words is their meaning and definition and how they are used in the ancient Italian and Hebrew language


Hallal - in the Hebrew bible manuscripts refers to light and shining

Allah - in the Arabic language refers to " LAH " referring to the ancient moon god called { God Lah }

Al meaning God and Lah was the name of the moon God - called - LAH ( Al Lah meaning = God Lah )
​

Lucifer - in the Italian language refers to to light and shining

but as you said - these two words are not derived from common origins but as the ancient world came together into a modern world these two words with the same meanings came together to make new words that combined these two ancient words with the same meanings and different societies, languages and races of people were brought together in the modern world.

after thousands of years these two words were brought together into the modern world to create new modern words for technology - dealing with light and shining

The combination of Allah and Lucifer make such English words as Aluminum and Hallucination and Even The Hebrew word Allahluyah is the perfect example. Here are just a few English words that are The combination of Allah and Lucifer or the ROOT meaning of the words have combined or singularly crossed over into the English language..

Halo, Hologram, Halogen, Aladdin, HALLAL, Halley's Comet, Hallucination, Haloid, Haloscope, or Halometer, Halogenation, Halite, Heliograph, Heliography, Hallucinogenics, Hallucinating, Hallucinator, Hallucinatory, Hallucinogen, Hallucinogenic, Hallucinoses, Hallucinosis, Halesia, Luculent, Lucis, Lucifugous, Lucerna lamp, Luzerno, Luciform, Lucid, Leucine, Lucite, Lucent, Luscher, LUSCA, Lucien, Luminescence, Lucentis, Lucifer, Hell,

Allah also has been used to indicate many words dealing with Greetings and excitement such as ALARM / HOLIDAY / HELLO / Greeting with a - HAIL / Hello / Hallmark / Halloween



And also - there is also another Ancient ROOT word connection is the - BAAL - BELL words.


BAAL - BELL words -

these words that have the sounds of = Aww, Al, El, Ool, Ill sound in the words - all from the ancient God - Baal or Ball of the Canaanites and Babylonians

We can see the similarity of meaning dealing with excitement, emotion and or simply ROUND SHAPES between all of them.

Aww, Al, El, Ool, Ill sounding words. THESE ARE ALL ROUND SHAPES AND WORDS OF EMOTIONIONAL UPRISING EXPRESSIONS

The many, many " ROUND SHAPES " words such as the words Hole, Axle, Revolve, Dill, Doll, Skull, Swell,

{ Well-* with the Water well / Fender well }

Pail, Wheel, Well, Bell, Bail, { Shilling-* Round Coin, } Shield-* { A Round, Smile, } Island, Pile, Hill, { Heel-* Bread*Foot, ] Nail,

Kneel, { Mill-*Wind/Grinding Stone, } Bowl, Belly, { Gall- *Fish organ, } Boil, Coil, Bowell, Shell, { Seal-*Round Wax For Sealing, } Sail, Bald,

{ Rail-*Stairs, = round rail is smooth and without any sharp edges}

{ Squeal -*To Raise up Voice, Wail-*To Raise up Voice, Call-*To Raise up Voice, } Till, Awl, Nail,*Fingernail, Nail-* Head of Nail,

Snail, Reel, { Mole-*Round bump, } Bill -*Birds Curved Bible, Roll, Scroll, Valley, Kneel, { Fell- *To topple Trees over, } Fall, Knob, Knoll, Hull, Bull-* Curved Horns, Bowel, Bow, { Gel-* To Raise or Gel Up. }

These words - BAAL - BELL - have deeply been incorporated into the English language as " ROUND SHAPED THINGS - and EMOTIONIONAL UPRISING - BAAL - BELL words