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When Did Satan Had Actually Fallen?

Of course not....Just as Jesus isn't a literal lamb walking around saying baaaaah,baaaah.
In the case of the dubious verse when the morning stars and the sons of God sang together is the godly lineage of Seth worshipping the Lord singing of His acts in creation in the pre dawn hours of the morning as nature... the morning stars are witnesses to God's creation as singing together with the sons of God...... is what we are talking about here as not metaphors.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Why refer to angels twice if both terms represent angels?

If you apply that as actual morning stars and the sons of God were angels, then how can the morning stars sing with the angels when God was laying the foundation of the earth when that had occurred on day 3 before the stars were created on day 4?


If you apply morning stars as angels and then who are the sons of God when so many scriptures testifies to that term as tracing Israel's family roots?

You are reading that false book of Enoch into the scriptures for why you are doubting His words as it is written.
 
I've presented you with several different accounts of where the sons of God as you describe them as being only "people"were around or would do what the bible says happens.
Job tells us they watched the creation...people didn't.
Scripture also tells us that believers worship and praise God of His wonderful acts in creation even though they were not there.

Even today, hymnals glorifies God in His wonderful acts in creation.
Genesis tells of the offspring were Nephilim...giants...and there is never a reason given as to how normal people would have this type of offspring.
They were still men. If you apply the Book of Enoch to that event, they were not men but spirits or did you forget that?

Also these giants were in those days and after that, meaning there were giants after the flood; hence Goliath.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Not some twisted version hybrid of spirits born unto men. it is written that God was repenting for having made man; not hybrids.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

So this teaching coming out of the Book of Enoch that the sons of God were fallen angels, trying to pollute the bloodline to prevent the Christ child coming is false,
Yes, I agree....born again, regenerated, quickened Christ followers are considered as the adopted, grafted into sons of God....but the language is different. The context is different.
Why use that term in the New Testament as it is used in the Old Testament in regards to the godly lineage of people following God and then mix it up by saying that they are also angels or fallen angels when they already have a term for angels & fallen angels?

If we are the sons of God now, then there is no way the sons of God was a reference for angels, let alone , fallen angels back then.
 
In the case of the dubious verse when the morning stars and the sons of God sang together is the godly lineage of Seth worshipping the Lord singing of His acts in creation in the pre dawn hours of the morning as nature... the morning stars are witnesses to God's creation as singing together with the sons of God...... is what we are talking about here as not metaphors.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Why refer to angels twice if both terms represent angels?

If you apply that as actual morning stars and the sons of God were angels, then how can the morning stars sing with the angels when God was laying the foundation of the earth when that had occurred on day 3 before the stars were created on day 4?


If you apply morning stars as angels and then who are the sons of God when so many scriptures testifies to that term as tracing Israel's family roots?

You are reading that false book of Enoch into the scriptures for why you are doubting His words as it is written.
I've also read where "when the morning stars and the sons of God sang together" is a type of ancient Hebrew poetic parallelism.
That is the first part is repeated by the second but with different words.
If you apply morning stars as angels and then who are the sons of God when so many scriptures testifies to that term as tracing Israel's family roots?
Israels roots trace back to when Jesus was creating the world? Job 38ish.
 
Scripture also tells us that believers worship and praise God of His wonderful acts in creation even though they were not there.
But it says they were there.

But, heck, you want to be right....have at it. Seth and or Cain's descendants married people...women...just like them and had giant Nephilim. Yeah, that works. People procreate and make giants.

Perhaps you should sit down and actually read Enoch chapter 6. Or not.
 
Which is word for word from the book of Enoch that the Hebrews studied and understood. Do you know they even found early writings containing portions of the book of Enoch with the scrolls the ancient Hebrews used in their temples?

Do you know the concept of "mansions" is presented in the book of Enoch from which Jesus expounded on?

Do a search for Enoch Chapter 6....and read about the Gen 6 account in more detail.
Again no such animal as a book of Enoch . Jude records the prophecy( ten words) of Christ spoken through Enoch.. That is all he needed to make a point same point made in Deuteronomy behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
 
I've also read where "when the morning stars and the sons of God sang together" is a type of ancient Hebrew poetic parallelism.
That is the first part is repeated by the second but with different words.

Sons of God (Christian) as children's of light morning stars praying the golden bowl censer .Without parables Christ spoke not hiding the spiritual understanding from the lost

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God (Not a gigantic. . fe fi fo fum alien. I see a helpless female ,serial rapist) came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God (Not a gigantic. . fe fi fo fum alien. I see helpless female ,serial rapist) shouted for joy?

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
 
But it says they were there.
The question was posed to Job whom was obviously not there when God laid the foundations of the earth BUT Job was there among the sons of God singing about that as one of His wonderful acts in creation.
But, heck, you want to be right....have at it. Seth and or Cain's descendants married people...women...just like them and had giant Nephilim. Yeah, that works. People procreate and make giants.
Seth replaced godly Abel and his descendants carried on godly traditions which Seth and the other descendants of Adam and Eve did not.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:

So Seth came into being when Adam was 130 years old. That means Adam had other children besides Cain and Abel before Seth was to replace Abel. That is where Cain got his wife from one of his siblings or offsprings of siblings.

And Adam lived 800 more years begetting more sons and daughters before he died at 930 years old.

So picture the goldy lineage of Seth that had replaced Abel as his descendants marrying outside of that godly lineage with the daughters of men as not of the godly lineage of Seth.

Perhaps you should sit down and actually read Enoch chapter 6. Or not.
You are not discerning this issue with Him at all.

Enoch chapter 6 does not testify to the result of the union.

Plus, they are admitting as "angels" that they are committing sin in taking women as wives for themselves and thereby overlooking the discernment that God would not marry them in being in collusion with their sins, now would He? He would not join them in "holy matrimony" for those women to be called wives to them in His words in Genesis 6th chapter any more than He would not join same sex couples or people with animals in "holy matrimony".

Enoch Chapter 7 reads like a fable. It is also lacking verses that was testifying to these giants being evil spirits.

The Benei Elohim, the Watchers, and the Origins of Evil

This link claims there are 3 versions to the story and yet tried to cover up the error of the omitted verses by saying that these giants were killed for how they were evil spirits but do note that the gap between verse 8 and 6 hardly testify to that end. I do not know why they did not share verse 7.

7:2 And they (=the human women) became pregnant and bore large giants, and their height [was] three thousand cubits. 7:3 These devoured all the toil of men, until men were unable to sustain them. 7:4 And the giants turned against them in order to devour men. 7:5 And they began to sin against birds, and against animals, and against reptiles and against fish, and they devoured one another’s flesh and drank the blood from it. 7:6 Then the earth complained about the lawless ones.

7:8 And now the giants who were born from spirits and flesh will be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth will be their dwelling. 7:9 And evil spirits came out from their flesh because from above they were created; from the holy Watchers was their origin and first foundation. Evil spirits they will be on the earth, and spirits of the evil ones they will be called. 7:10 And the dwelling of the spirits of heaven is in heaven, but the dwelling of the spirits of earth, who were born on the earth, [is] on earth. 7:11 And the spirits of the giants . . . which do wrong and are corrupt, and attack and fight and break on the earth, and cause sorrow; and they eat no food and do not thirst, and are not observed. 7:12 And these spirits will rise against the sons of men and against the women because they came out [from them].

Anyway, that was the version of the Book of Enoch that I had read which testified to those giants having been born as evil spirits. It is highly likely that they had omitted those other verses to avoid seeing the Book of Enoch as an obvious Jewish fable.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Plus, that lie in Enoch chapter 18

14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.'

Enoch is supposedly seeing this punishment of creation in that third Heaven which runs contrary to His words in Isaiah.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

if you believe that part of the Book of Enoch, you might as well cast off all assurance of salvation because it testifies His word will not always come forth.

Then there is this truth that Jesus had shared for why it is a lie that Enoch had even ascended to God's throne, the third heaven

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The apostle John was able to be taken to the Third Heaven after Jesus had ascended for how Paradise is now located in that Third heaven as testified indirectly by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 whereas before it was located beneath the earth and across that great gulf from hell Luke 16:19-31 KJV with 1 Samuel 28th Chapter for when King Saul sinned against the Lord by consulting with a medium to bring up the spirit of the prophet Samuel.

So how can Enoch see all that in God's throne, that Third Heaven?

Why would we care to see the punishment of His rebellious creation in Heaven when the Marriage Supper commence?

The Book of Enoch is a fraud and whatever fragmented remnant of the tattered scrolls that they have found among the Dead Sea Scrolls are Jewish fables.

As if Noah was carrying the Book of Enoch around for future generations. Not.
 
The question was posed to Job whom was obviously not there when God laid the foundations of the earth BUT Job was there among the sons of God singing about that as one of His wonderful acts in creation.
If you ned to believe that...then go for it.
 
If you ned to believe that...then go for it.
Why do you need to believe otherwise? Got a book out hoping to sell? Or just do not want to admit you were wrong in teaching that falsehood? I would believe that if you desire truth to be abiding in Him and in truth, then by His grace & by His help, you would have noticed in that post that I had reproved the Book of Enoch as a fraud. He has to show that truth to you as I know I cannot if you have settled in your mind that the Book of Enoch is scripture. God has been known to do the impossible and so I can hope He will open your eyes to see that truth.
 
Why do you need to believe otherwise? Got a book out hoping to sell? Or just do not want to admit you were wrong in teaching that falsehood? I would believe that if you desire truth to be abiding in Him and in truth, then by His grace & by His help, you would have noticed in that post that I had reproved the Book of Enoch as a fraud. He has to show that truth to you as I know I cannot if you have settled in your mind that the Book of Enoch is scripture. God has been known to do the impossible and so I can hope He will open your eyes to see that truth.
Why is the book of Enoch a fraud?

Now, I do believe that the book of Enoch is broken up into 4 parts...and the 3rd and 4th part may have been additions.

But I ask....why did Peter and Jude quote from the book? Why did Jesus expound on some of the topics mentioned in the book of Enoch? Why did the early Hebrews have the book as part of their collections? Why was the book...or fragments....found with the Dead Sea Scrolls?

So, why is the book a "fraud"?
 
Why is the book of Enoch a fraud?
I had exposed it as such in post #48 and so obviously did not care to read it since you had prompted me to go to the Book of Enoch to prove it a fraud.
Now, I do believe that the book of Enoch is broken up into 4 parts...and the 3rd and 4th part may have been additions.
Or others taking poetic licensing to it or cutting it down to make it so Christians would not see it as a fraud right away.
But I ask....why did Peter and Jude quote from the book? Why did Jesus expound on some of the topics mentioned in the book of Enoch? Why did the early Hebrews have the book as part of their collections? Why was the book...or fragments....found with the Dead Sea Scrolls?

So, why is the book a "fraud"?
I believe the Book of Enoch, that whole one that they had found from the area of Alexandria where poetic licensing and Gnosticism has been known to exists, is a fraud, copying a verse verses from actual scriptures into that fraudulent Book of Enoch to make it look legit.
 
I had exposed it as such in post #48 and so obviously did not care to read it since you had prompted me to go to the Book of Enoch to prove it a fraud.

Or others taking poetic licensing to it or cutting it down to make it so Christians would not see it as a fraud right away.

I believe the Book of Enoch, that whole one that they had found from the area of Alexandria where poetic licensing and Gnosticism has been known to exists, is a fraud, copying a verse verses from actual scriptures into that fraudulent Book of Enoch to make it look legit.
You can believe that if you like.
 
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