Lucifer is not a pre-fallen Satan

[GeneZ]

When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:[Isaiah 14:3-4]

Notice in vs 4 who Isaiah is referring to, the king of Babylon, not a pre-fallen Satan.

Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers.[vs 11]

Here is the king of Babylon's body laid in the ground to be "worm food". This is a human body, not a pre-fallen Satan.

"Prepare slaughter for his sons because of the guilt of their fathers, lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the face of the world with cities.”[vs 21]

Satan never had any sons, and this is God making sure to wipe out his lineage so that none of them can assume the throne.

“I will rise up against them,” declares the LORD of hosts, “and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, descendants and posterity,” declares the LORD. “And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog, and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the LORD of hosts.[vss 22-23]

Here is further proof that God was going to cut off the king of Babylon's lineage and also wipe them off the face of the earth. The Medeo-Persian empire defeated them in 539 B.C.

This is a Cliff's notes version as I am pressed for time, but I will add more later this morning, good Lord willing. @CrazyCalvinistUncle

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me,
for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Matthew 16:23​

Notice that Jesus was not speaking to Satan but to Peter while rebuking Peter.

But, Jesus was perfectly describing Satan while rebuking Peter.

The same principle that the Lord uses was also being used against the King of Tyre!


grace and peace ................

 

[ChristB4us]

Do you believe that Satan can possess an unregenerate man @ChristB4us ?

Yes. Just as devils and unclean spirits can possess a regenerated man, a born again believer, if they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again for why God will permit that strong delusion to occur.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first..........

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

That is why at the pre great tribulation rapture event, these believers that have fallen away from the faith will be denied by Him as that iniquity is denying Him but He still abides in those left behind to finish His work in them so that when they die, their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House.

That is the damnation spoken of in verse 12 above, unless they repent before the time the Bridegroom comes.

As it is, Paul reminds us of the only time we will receive the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth which was at the calling of the gospel. This tradition exposes that lie for what it is, of saved believers thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again by a sign.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Those fallen away from the faith are still our brothers and thus still saved but at risk of being left behind unless they depart from that iniquity. Paul goes on to address them in exhorting Christians to withdraw from them but not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still as they are still His and thus still saved.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Yes. Just as devils and unclean spirits can possess a regenerated man, a born again believer, if they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again for why God will permit that strong delusion to occur.

That is why at the pre great tribulation rapture event, these believers that have fallen away from the faith will be denied by Him as that iniquity is denying Him but He still abides in those left behind to finish His work in them so that when they die, their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House.

You know...you were speaking sense up until this point. Oh well.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me,
for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Matthew 16:23​

Notice that Jesus was not speaking to Satan but to Peter while rebuking Peter.

But, Jesus was perfectly describing Satan while rebuking Peter.

The same principle that the Lord uses was also being used against the King of Tyre!


grace and peace ................

Er...so you don't believe that Satan can possess someone then?

 

[GeneZ]

Er...so you don't believe that Satan can possess someone then?

Not all all... Satan and demons can only possess people who are unregenerate. But, they can not do so at will.
For the demons that wanted to even enter the herd of swine needed to beg the Lord to do so.
And, as with Job, Satan was first granted permission before doing what he did. Not to mention, Satan had to
request to sift Peter like wheat.

What I said (which you referred to) was dealing with the issue of the King of Tyre, as this thread began with.

The thread title is : Lucifer is not a pre-fallen Satan. That is the name of this thread.

It began with the assumption that it was all about the King of Tyre and could not be speaking about Satan.
That is why I gave the passage where the Lord called Peter "Satan" to illustrate how the Lord works, and why
Lucifer and the King of Tyre were written about as they were in Isaiah 14.

For the following can not be speaking about the king of Tyre as the OP suggests.
It was done like Jesus called Peter Satan.

“How you are fallen from heaven,​

O Lucifer, son of the morning!​

How you are cut down to the ground,​

You who weakened the nations!​

For you have said in your heart:​

‘I will ascend into heaven,​

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;​

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation​

On the farthest sides of the north;​

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,​

I will be like the Most High.’​

​

Isaiah 14:12-14​

 

[civic]

Yes. Just as devils and unclean spirits can possess a regenerated man, a born again believer, if they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again for why God will permit that strong delusion to occur.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first..........

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

That is why at the pre great tribulation rapture event, these believers that have fallen away from the faith will be denied by Him as that iniquity is denying Him but He still abides in those left behind to finish His work in them so that when they die, their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House.

That is the damnation spoken of in verse 12 above, unless they repent before the time the Bridegroom comes.

As it is, Paul reminds us of the only time we will receive the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth which was at the calling of the gospel. This tradition exposes that lie for what it is, of saved believers thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again by a sign.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Those fallen away from the faith are still our brothers and thus still saved but at risk of being left behind unless they depart from that iniquity. Paul goes on to address them in exhorting Christians to withdraw from them but not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still as they are still His and thus still saved.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

That’s an oxymoron. A born again believer cannot be possessed by a demon . Plus Jesus dismantled that idea several times in His teaching.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Not all all... Satan and demons can only possess people who are unregenerate. But, they can not do so at will.
For the demons that wanted to even enter the herd of swine needed to beg the Lord to do so.
And, as with Job, Satan was first granted permission before doing what he did. Not to mention, Satan had to
request to sift Peter like wheat.

What I said (which you referred to) was dealing with the issue of the King of Tyre, as this thread began with.

The thread title is : Lucifer is not a pre-fallen Satan. That is the name of this thread.

It began with the assumption that it was all about the King of Tyre and could not be speaking about Satan.
That is why I gave the passage where the Lord called Peter "Satan" to illustrate how the Lord works, and why
Lucifer and the King of Tyre were written about as they were in Isaiah 14.

For the following can not be speaking about the king of Tyre as the OP suggests.
It was done like Jesus called Peter Satan.

“How you are fallen from heaven,​

O Lucifer, son of the morning!​

How you are cut down to the ground,​

You who weakened the nations!​

For you have said in your heart:​

‘I will ascend into heaven,​

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;​

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation​

On the farthest sides of the north;​

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,​

I will be like the Most High.’​

​

Isaiah 14:12-14​

I think we actually agree on something. Well...several things.

 

[GeneZ]

That’s an oxymoron. A born again believer cannot be possessed by a demon . Plus Jesus dismantled that idea several times in His teaching.

Greater is He who is in you who is in the world? What happened to that?

But, that will not matter to some people. Its how they feel about it that matters.

Paul warned when he said... "there god is their belly."

The word "belly' was used back then to speak of the emotions.
They make their emotions their god, and make themselves become enemies of the Cross.
Their emotions trump the Word of God when it gets in the way of their desired outcome.

For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, ​

that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose ​

god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly ​

things. " ​

​

Philippians 3:18-19​

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Not all all... Satan and demons can only possess people who are unregenerate. But, they can not do so at will.

Even though they are children of wrath? Are "of the Devil"?

Not looking for a fight. I just tend to think of them as under a blanket "these are all playthings" of evil powers.

Job, Peter, even Judas ( until the time came ) were under protection. Thoughts?

I was definitely a plaything at one time. But whether that was simply because I was unprotected or it was the Lord lifting His hand I won't know until He tells me.

 

[ChristB4us]

You know...you were speaking sense up until this point. Oh well.

Then explain this.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first..........

 

[ChristB4us]

That’s an oxymoron. A born again believer cannot be possessed by a demon . Plus Jesus dismantled that idea several times in His teaching.

Then explain this.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[civic]

Then explain this.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Giving heed is not possession you are conflating them.

 

[ChristB4us]

Giving heed is not possession you are conflating them.

@CrazyCalvinistUncle & @GeneZ &

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first..........

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If a saved believer believes the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again or for the first time at their salvation by a sign, they are committing spiritual adultery for why Gid will permit that strong delusion to occur. It is akin to the foolish virgins that are of the ten that are the kingdom of heaven for why they were not received for that wedding reception in that kingdom of heaven, but they are still that kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV

That is why at the pre great tribulation rapture event, these believers that have fallen away from the faith will be denied by Him as that iniquity is denying Him but He still abides in those left behind to finish His work in them so that when they die, their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House.

That is the damnation spoken of in verse 12 above in 2 Thessalonians 2::9-12, unless they repent before the time the Bridegroom comes.

As it is, Paul reminds us of the only time we will receive the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth which was at the calling of the gospel. This tradition exposes that lie for what it is, of saved believers thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again by a sign.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Those fallen away from the faith are still our brothers and thus still saved but at risk of being left behind unless they depart from that iniquity. Paul goes on to address them in exhorting Christians to withdraw from them but not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still as they are still His and thus still saved.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So what say ye now?

 

[civic]

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first..........

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If a saved believer believes the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again or for the first time at their salvation by a sign, they are committing spiritual adultery for why Gid will permit that strong delusion to occur. It is akin to the foolish virgins that are of the ten that are the kingdom of heaven for why they were not received for that wedding reception in that kingdom of heaven, but they are still that kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV

That is why at the pre great tribulation rapture event, these believers that have fallen away from the faith will be denied by Him as that iniquity is denying Him but He still abides in those left behind to finish His work in them so that when they die, their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House.

That is the damnation spoken of in verse 12 above in 2 Thessalonians 2::9-12, unless they repent before the time the Bridegroom comes.

As it is, Paul reminds us of the only time we will receive the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth which was at the calling of the gospel. This tradition exposes that lie for what it is, of saved believers thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again by a sign.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Those fallen away from the faith are still our brothers and thus still saved but at risk of being left behind unless they depart from that iniquity. Paul goes on to address them in exhorting Christians to withdraw from them but not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still as they are still His and thus still saved.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So what say ye now?

1 Tim 4 is not talking about believers , those born again who get seduced . Believers are not damned or condemned . That’s your first false assumption.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Then explain this.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first..........

1 Timothy 4:1 - False believers
2 Thessalonians 2:1 - This is not, as some teach, a falling away of the church or believers. The word here used for "falling away" is actually more accurately "departing or leaving". It is only used twice in the NT. Here and Acts 21:21

In the context of the passage Paul is telling them to not believe that Christ has returned no matter who tells them such a thing for He ( Christ ) will not return until a leaving or departing has happened. That leaving or departing is the church. This is a reference to the rapture. ie there is no need to be shaken or troubled about missing the day of Christ for you will not miss Christ coming for He will be coming for YOU.

 

[ChristB4us]

1 Tim 4 is not talking about believers , those born again who get seduced . Believers are not damned or condemned . That’s your first false assumption.

@CrazyCalvinistUncle & @preacher4truth

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Think that warning applies to sinners that are condemned anyway?

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

What happens when a believer does not show mercy but condemned?

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What happens when a believer does walk after the flesh? They get condemned.

Don't get me wrong. Discipleship as in running that race, is not a works salvation, because those left behind are still saved but condemned as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, for not departing from iniquity to be that vessel unto honor in His House instead.

Even former believers that would verbally deny Jesus, will be denied by Him at that pre great tribulation rapture event BUT He still abides which is why we are even to call former believers to depart from iniquity so that they too may obtains the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus, to be that vessel unto honor in His House as received to attend the marriage Supper in heaven.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is the condemnation awaiting every saved believer found in unrepentant iniquity. If you do not believe Jesus will finish His work even in those saved believers left behind, then read this about our Overcomer in what He will do for those saints and former believers left behind.

1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJV

I am using scriptures; what are you using?

 

[ChristB4us]

1 Timothy 4:1 - False believers
2 Thessalonians 2:1 - This is not, as some teach, a falling away of the church or believers. The word here used for "falling away" is actually more accurately "departing or leaving". It is only used twice in the NT. Here and Acts 21:21

In the context of the passage Paul is telling them to not believe that Christ has returned no matter who tells them such a thing for He ( Christ ) will not return until a leaving or departing has happened. That leaving or departing is the church. This is a reference to the rapture. ie there is no need to be shaken or troubled about missing the day of Christ for you will not miss Christ coming for He will be coming for YOU.

@civic & @preacher4truth

You cannot cut someone from the vine unless they were on it.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

You cannot cut saved believers to be left behind with unbelievers unless they are saved believers for not being ready as found abiding in Him.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

You go, d00d.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Let’s get back to the topic of the OP and stop hijacking the thread.

 

[Deleted member 6]

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me,
for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Matthew 16:23​

Notice that Jesus was not speaking to Satan but to Peter while rebuking Peter.

But, Jesus was perfectly describing Satan while rebuking Peter.

The same principle that the Lord uses was also being used against the King of Tyre!


grace and peace ................

But the point remains that the king of Babylon was “Lucifer”, or “Morning Star”, as Lucifer came from Jerome’s Vulgate and is not found in ANY OT mss.