When Did Satan Had Actually Fallen?

[makesends]

Can I teach it as fact? I would say, probably. Can I be 100% sure? Not really.

I can also present the book of Enoch...from which the bible quotes time to time. The book from which Jesus expands on some of the topics.

I can also point to the Nephilim giants in the bible. I can also point to giants in archeology. Where did this giant genetic information come from?

*Shrugs*

In other words, speculation.

 

[CrowCross]

*Shrugs*

In other words, speculation.

Speculation???? Are you saying the bible doesn't quote the book of Enoch?
Are you saying the un-earthed or found in caves giants don't exist?

Perhaps there ia a tad bit of speculation...but the dots connect.

For fun question......do you think an angel can spin a nut onto a bolt?

 

[Arial]

Can I teach it as fact? I would say, probably. Can I be 100% sure? Not really.

I can also present the book of Enoch...from which the bible quotes time to time. The book from which Jesus expands on some of the topics.

I can also point to the Nephilim giants in the bible. I can also point to giants in archeology. Where did this giant genetic information come from?

If there is a probably there can be no statement of fact. If there is no 100% sure, a statement of fact is out of line.

The fact that the Bible sometimes quotes the book of Enoch does not mean everything in the book of Enoch can be brought into what the Bible does not say.

I can also point to the Nephilim giants in the bible.

Sure, but it presupposes what the Bible actually means by Nephilim and giants. The etymology of the word nephilim is ambiguous and varied at best. But it occurs in the ancient near east in mythology that has divine beings (their many gods) mating with human beings. So one should be very careful about bringing that into Bible interpretation.

I can also point to giants in archeology.

How big were these giants in archaeology that you can point to. Please give the source and the evidence.

Where did this giant genetic information come from?

What giant genetic information?

 

[makesends]

Speculation???? Are you saying the bible doesn't quote the book of Enoch?
Are you saying the un-earthed or found in caves giants don't exist?

Perhaps there ia a tad bit of speculation...but the dots connect.

For fun question......do you think an angel can spin a nut onto a bolt?

My point was that you have no proof —just what you take for pretty good indicators. And, the Bible quotes a lot of things —"as certain also of your poets have said...". That doesn't make the poets, nor the Book of Enoch authoritative.

I'm not arguing one way or the other about the angels procreating with human women. I tend to think not, but it is even possible that God endowed them with male genitalia for that very purpose in the one situation! (And if they did it, I'm pretty sure it was in rebellion, and not in obedience!)

There are many reasons to believe giants —even a race of giants— can exist even to this day, that have nothing to do with Genesis 6.

Angels can do anything God tells them to do. Even suddenly possess male genitalia complete with sperm. Who knows?

 

[CrowCross]

My point was that you have no proof —just what you take for pretty good indicators. And, the Bible quotes a lot of things —"as certain also of your poets have said...". That doesn't make the poets, nor the Book of Enoch authoritative.

I'm not arguing one way or the other about the angels procreating with human women. I tend to think not, but it is even possible that God endowed them with male genitalia for that very purpose in the one situation! (And if they did it, I'm pretty sure it was in rebellion, and not in obedience!)

There are many reasons to believe giants —even a race of giants— can exist even to this day, that have nothing to do with Genesis 6.

Angels can do anything God tells them to do. Even suddenly possess male genitalia complete with sperm. Who knows?

Who knows? Gen 6. Even Enoch knew. Peter and Jude knew.

This should be interesting...I haven't listened to it yet.

EP: 262 The Sons of God with Timothy Alberino & Dr. Joel Muddamalle (listen)​

 

[ChristB4us]

Job tells us....When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy. These "beings" watch God form the earth. .......
4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. That's what Job says.

Were humans present when God formed the earth? We all know that answer was no. So, who were they?

I know you are having a problem with aligning that verse of the use of the sons of God as Job being one of them, but do we as believers not sin of the wonders of God's creation even though we were not there at the onset? That was what the sons of God were doing.

Think about it.

The morning star of Isaiah is the planet Venus.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

If you believe the earth was created on day 2 & finished on day 3 and then the universe on day 4, then how can any morning stars be there to sing about God laying the foundations of the earth on day 3 when the universe was not created yet until day 4?

The morning stars are present every week when the sons of God with Job, come together to sing of the wonders of God's creation.

So like Job was not there when He laid the foundation of the earth and yet he was among the sons of God praising God for it thus inferring that Job knew better. Read it again because I believe God was being sarcastic in that Job ought to know better as to Who did all that.

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

Can not Job observe all that the Lord has established in creation and would he not have sang songs to this knowledge?

And Job had done so with the sons of God when the morning stars sang together with them whenever they presented themselves to the Lord..

 

[CrowCross]

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This is not Venus.

Sons of God are angels.

You might like this

EP: 262 The Sons of God with Timothy Alberino & Dr. Joel Muddamalle (listen)​

 

[ChristB4us]

This is not Venus.

Sons of God are angels.

You might like this

EP: 262 The Sons of God with Timothy Alberino & Dr. Joel Muddamalle (listen)​

Are there not more than one star in the morning?

Did not the planets align recently in sunrise as of yesterday morning?

See 5 planets after sunset, in the sky or via video

If sons of God are angels, then how are we the sons of God now as believers in jesus christ?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Note how the sons of God were before as born of blood, of the 12 tribes of Israel, or of the will of the flesh or the will of man by conversion to Judaism?

Confirmation that the sons of God is a term for tracing Israelis roots and family tree.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The Hebrew word for son is "ben" which is builder of the family name, and that is why angels were never the sons of God as they never had been commanded by God to go forth & multiply.

 

[CrowCross]

Are there not more than one star in the morning?

Did not the planets align recently in sunrise as of yesterday morning?

See 5 planets after sunset, in the sky or via video

If sons of God are angels, then how are we the sons of God now as believers in jesus christ?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Note how the sons of God were before as born of blood, of the 12 tribes of Israel, or of the will of the flesh or the will of man by conversion to Judaism?

Confirmation that the sons of God is a term for tracing Israelis roots and family tree.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The Hebrew word for son is "ben" which is builder of the family name, and that is why angels were never the sons of God as they never had been commanded by God to go forth & multiply.

How could people...sons of God...watch the earth being created? Adam wasn't even created yet.

 

[ChristB4us]

How could people...sons of God...watch the earth being created? Adam wasn't even created yet.

You are misreading the verse as many do in thinking in that way when it is about how the sons of God with the morning stars got together to praise God in His creation even though Job and the sons of God and the morning stars were not there on day 3 since the universe was not there until day 4.

 

[CrowCross]

You are misreading the verse as many do in thinking in that way when it is about how the sons of God with the morning stars got together to praise God in His creation even though Job and the sons of God and the morning stars were not there on day 3 since the universe was not there until day 4.

Not buying it. It says...
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Not
7after which the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Did you ever read the translation from the LXX...Septuagint ?
7 When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice...........Why did they choose angels rather than "sons of God"?

 

[ChristB4us]

Not buying it. It says...
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Not
7after which the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

When the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord by tradition, it had to have been in the wee early hours of the morning or mayhap the evening after sunset, for when the morning stars greet with them to sing together as witnesses of the wonders of God's creation.

Did you ever read the translation from the LXX...Septuagint ?
7 When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice...........Why did they choose angels rather than "sons of God"?

I can see why you are having a problem seeing that translation from the LXX...Septuagint for the lie that it is.

I can only hope the Lord helps you to see this truth BUT when God laid the foundations of the earth on day 3, the stars were not there yet, remember the order of creation week in Genesis 1:1-2:3??

 

[CrowCross]

I can only hope the Lord helps you to see this truth

Anytime I see a 'christian" respond this way...as if they corner the truth and I should only believe as they believe...I began to worry about them.

 

[CrowCross]

When the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord by tradition, it had to have been in the wee early hours of the morning or mayhap the evening after sunset, for when the morning stars greet with them to sing together as witnesses of the wonders of God's creation.

I can see why you are having a problem seeing that translation from the LXX...Septuagint for the lie that it is.

I can only hope the Lord helps you to see this truth BUT when God laid the foundations of the earth on day 3, the stars were not there yet, remember the order of creation week in Genesis 1:1-2:3??

Rev 1:20 calls angels ...stars.
isaiah 14 calls Satan a star.

 

[ChristB4us]

Rev 1:20 calls angels ...stars.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Not when the terms are metaphors, then angels are not actually stars.

isaiah 14 calls Satan a star.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

If you are referring to this verse, Lucifer is not found in any Greek manuscripts. The term was borrowed from the Latin Vulgate as a footnote or reference to the planet Venus, which is that son of the morning.

 

[ChristB4us]

Anytime I see a 'christian" respond this way...as if they corner the truth and I should only believe as they believe...I began to worry about them.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We either rightly divide the word of truth or we are not, in favor of an Unbiblical teaching that goes contrary to the truths in scripture.

Are Christians the sons of God or not?

Were the sons of God from before of Jewish bloodlines and by conversion to Judaism or not?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I believe a false teaching is preventing you to see the truth in His words as to who the sons of God actually are.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Why would God allow a term for tracing Israel's family tree in the scriptures be assigned to angels? That would create confusion which God is not the author of.

 

[Mr GLee]

Speculation???? Are you saying the bible doesn't quote the book of Enoch?
Are you saying the un-earthed or found in caves giants don't exist?

Perhaps there ia a tad bit of speculation...but the dots connect.

For fun question......do you think an angel can spin a nut onto a bolt?

There is no book of Enoch. There is the one prophecy in the book Jude. declaring .of the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Same kind of prohecy declared in Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

 

[CrowCross]

Not when the terms are metaphors, then angels are not actually stars.

Of course not....Just as Jesus isn't a literal lamb walking around saying baaaaah,baaaah.

 

[CrowCross]

I believe a false teaching is preventing you to see the truth in His words as to who the sons of God actually are.

I've presented you with several different accounts of where the sons of God as you describe them as being only "people"were around or would do what the bible says happens.
Job tells us they watched the creation...people didn't.
Genesis tells of the offspring were Nephilim...giants...and there is never a reason given as to how normal people would have this type of offspring.

Yes, I agree....born again, regenerated, quickened Christ followers are considered as the adopted, grafted into sons of God....but the language is different. The context is different.

 

[CrowCross]

There is no book of Enoch. There is the one prophecy in the book Jude. declaring .of the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Which is word for word from the book of Enoch that the Hebrews studied and understood. Do you know they even found early writings containing portions of the book of Enoch with the scrolls the ancient Hebrews used in their temples?

Do you know the concept of "mansions" is presented in the book of Enoch from which Jesus expounded on?

Do a search for Enoch Chapter 6....and read about the Gen 6 account in more detail.