Lucifer is not a pre-fallen Satan

[3 Resurrections]

``how art thou fallen from on high, who was shining among the sons of men, as the star Venus among the stars.''
Jarchi, as the Talmud F3, applies it to Nebuchadnezzar; though, if any particular person is pointed at, Belshazzar is rather designed, the last of the kings of Babylon.

My vote is along with this above statement from the Gill commentary, that the title of "Lucifer" stood for Belshazzar, the last of the Babylonian kings who was cut down and slain by Cyrus's army in one night of drunken revelry with his court. That night Belshazzar had called for all the vessels of the destroyed Jerusalem temple for his lords, wives, and concubines to boastfully drink from those vessels stolen from the temple. Also, Belshazzar had the stolen menorah lampstand taken from the temple placed against the wall - exactly where the fingers of a man's hand wrote that message of condemnation, "Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin".

Daniel was brought in to translate this message, and rebuked Belshazzar for "lifting up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know; and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified." (Daniel 5:23).

The dead King Belshazzar was going to be the subject of the proverb taken up by those in the post-exilic return when Cyrus's decree authorized the Israelites' return to their homeland. They would then say against this last king of Babylon, "How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!" This was speaking of the end of the Babylonian empire as the "head of gold", which passed in a single night by the attack staged by Cyrus the Persian.

The boast by this "morning star" of "ascending into heaven" was of Babylon having conquered the Jerusalem temple, where God from heaven communed with His people.

"I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" was Belshazzar boasting of the Babylonian empire having suppressed the children of Israel (as in Joseph's dream of the stars representing his brothers and himself the sons of Israel).

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds" was Belshazzar's boast of Babylon having conquered the temple where the shekinah glory cloud of God's presence had been.

Belshazzar also said "I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north." This was the exact way King David had described Mount Zion in Psalms 48:2, and Belshazzar was only copying King David, who had said, "Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, the city of the great king."

"Lucifer" stood for King Belshazzar, the last king of Babylon.

 

[GeneZ]

My vote is along with this above statement from the Gill commentary, that the title of "Lucifer" stood for Belshazzar, the last of the Babylonian kings who was cut down and slain by Cyrus's army in one night of drunken revelry with his court. That night Belshazzar had called for all the vessels of the destroyed Jerusalem temple for his lords, wives, and concubines to boastfully drink from those vessels stolen from the temple. Also, Belshazzar had the stolen menorah lampstand taken from the temple placed against the wall - exactly where the fingers of a man's hand wrote that message of condemnation, "Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin".

Daniel was brought in to translate this message, and rebuked Belshazzar for "lifting up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know; and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified." (Daniel 5:23).

The dead King Belshazzar was going to be the subject of the proverb taken up by those in the post-exilic return when Cyrus's decree authorized the Israelites' return to their homeland. They would then say against this last king of Babylon, "How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!" This was speaking of the end of the Babylonian empire as the "head of gold", which passed in a single night by the attack staged by Cyrus the Persian.

The boast by this "morning star" of "ascending into heaven" was of Babylon having conquered the Jerusalem temple, where God from heaven communed with His people.

"I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" was Belshazzar boasting of the Babylonian empire having suppressed the children of Israel (as in Joseph's dream of the stars representing his brothers and himself the sons of Israel).

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds" was Belshazzar's boast of Babylon having conquered the temple where the shekinah glory cloud of God's presence had been.

Belshazzar also said "I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north." This was the exact way King David had described Mount Zion in Psalms 48:2, and Belshazzar was only copying King David, who had said, "Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, the city of the great king."

"Lucifer" stood for King Belshazzar, the last king of Babylon.

Excellent information. Did not know that about King Belshazzar.

The term "Lucifer" was used to describe Belshazzar's mental attitude.
But it was describing Lucifer to do so.
The king's example offered insight into Lucifer's ways.

Jesus did the same thing with Peter...

Jesus called Peter by the name "Satan," while describing Peter and Satan's way of thinking.
In doing so, Jesus gave us insight into how Satan thinks.

Matthew 16:21-23​

​

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, ​

and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, ​

and be raised the third day.​

​

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, ​

Lord; this shall not happen to You!”​

​

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, ​

for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”​

​

Same approach was used by God with King Belshazzar.
It was describing the king, but also shedding light on how Satan works.

grace and peace ...

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

-------------------

I totally agree with " GeneZ " on this matter

in Eze 28:

The King of Tyre is being influenced by Satan and true Satan has a part and a role to play in the sinful, prideful and rebellious heart of the king,

the passage is explaining that Satan's influence upon this King and his kingdom will be brought to nothingness. As these Kings are possessed by powerful evil spirits of influence and power

for example - Dan 10: visited by an Angel Of the Lord

Dan 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

:6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia " withstood me " one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

so... what we see here is that the King Of Persia has spiritual power of Satan to withstand and prevent against the power of another Angel who is attempting to minister and visit unto Daniel - but the Angel Michael was needed to intervene to fight the battle for the Angel of the Lord to make contact to Daniel.

i believe that " GeneZ " makes a very good truthful point to the mental attitude and also the very power of these powerful Kings who are influenced and in union with the Spiritual Power of Satan whom Satan himself is spiritually influencing and working in the Kings and their attitude and power over others

just imagine what power Satan has over over leaders and agents of government and control today

it's like a spiritual coincidence that the attitude and actions of these Kings are in union with the purpose and goals of Satan who was in the Garden of Eden even influencing the Serpent and attempting to bring about the downfall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden

 

[3 Resurrections]

I totally agree with " GeneZ " on this matter

in Eze 28:

The King of Tyre is being influenced by Satan and true Satan has a part and a role to play in the sinful, prideful and rebellious heart of the king,

the passage is explaining that Satan's influence upon this King and his kingdom will be brought to nothingness. As these Kings are possessed by powerful evil spirits of influence and power

for example - Dan 10: visited by an Angel Of the Lord

Dan 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

:6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia " withstood me " one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

so... what we see here is that the King Of Persia has spiritual power of Satan to withstand and prevent against the power of another Angel who is attempting to minister and visit unto Daniel - but the Angel Michael was needed to intervene to fight the battle for the Angel of the Lord to make contact to Daniel.

i believe that " GeneZ " makes a very good truthful point to the mental attitude and also the very power of these powerful Kings who are influenced and in union with the Spiritual Power of Satan whom Satan himself is spiritually influencing and working in the Kings and their attitude and power over others

Great! Another one who catches this history of the activity of the wicked angels as "Princes" working behind the scenes of history over the human Princes of the world empires.

just imagine what power Satan has over over leaders and agents of government and control today

For the leaders and agents of government today, there is no longer a Satanic realm working behind the scenes anymore. Hebrews 2:5 tells us of the eradication of this wicked angelic control. "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak." The former condition of the world's empires being subjected to the evil influence of Satanic Princes working behind the scenes would be eliminated in the coming world which Hebrews was then describing.

That is the significance of Daniel 2's statue being struck on the feet by Christ the "rock" kingdom. The elements composing that statue which represented the power behind the world's ancient empires were all simultaneously destroyed to dust "together" by one blow of the "rock". That "rock" kingdom established by Christ has steadily continued to grow in size since then, and will one day fill the whole world.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

so you are saying that of Satan, which will have deceived - THE WHOLE WORLD

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived - THE WHOLE WORLD : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

this deception will not eventually have occurred by the hand of modern technology - obviously the ANOINTING / CHRIST / ROCK has not yet put in subjection the world to come after him. - -

meaning - until the day of Judgment this will not be done.

what passages of scripture can Trinitarians provide to substantiate this claim

it is impossible for Satan to deceive - THE WHOLE WORLD - unless Satanic Princes are working behind the scenes to bring the downfall of the current Kingdom Of Christ

the current Kingdom of Christ is prophesied to continue to fall and be overpowered until Christ returns long into the future

please explain from the Trinitarian Translation

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

do forums trade mockery for dope

Drug addicted USA Federal Agents and their deputies have reached into the Kingdom of forums for Christ ?

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

my friends we do not need to feel ashamed by Drug addicted USA Federal Agents and their deputies
these drug addicted Pedophile Child murdering traitorous thieving weaklings only want to take your mothers, wives and daughters to sell them to our enemies, so that they may retire and vacation in their own American haven\

USA Federal Agents and their deputies will take everything you own, everything you invent and create and sell it to your enemy.

let's discuss the manuscripts please

 

[3 Resurrections]

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived - THE WHOLE WORLD : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

this deception will not eventually have occurred by the hand of modern technology - obviously the ANOINTING / CHRIST / ROCK has not yet put in subjection the world to come after him. - -

meaning - until the day of Judgment this will not be done.

In John's days, the devil truly was then "deceiving the whole world". An enraged Satan had been released at that time (in AD 33) from the millennial chain which had bound his deception of the nations, and he was operating at full throttle in those first century days - just like the "roaring lion walking about" to which 1 Peter 5:8 had compared Satan. Satan's great anger was in knowing that he only had a "short time" and a "little season" left to operate in this world.

That "short time" expired in AD 70 with the total destruction of all the members of the Satanic realm, as had been predicted. That day of judgment for Satan is long past. Paul told the Roman believers that God was going to crush Satan under their feet "shortly" in Romans 16:20 (written around AD 60). The end of that "short time" for Satan came in AD 70. The conditions in the "world to come" after that point are not in subjection to the presence of the wicked angelic realm anymore.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

if Satan had deceived the whole world in AD 70

why even read or quote from a Translation of a Book about Satan's deception that was not even translated until nearly 2000 years after Satan had deceived the whole world.

what guarantee can you provide as a Trinitarian that those translating the Bible nearly 2000 years after Satan had deceived the whole world were not a part of the whole world that was deceived ?

if the manuscripts are not what you quote - why trust in a translation that was not produced until nearly 2000 years after Satan had deceived the whole world

the Book of Revelation reveals that the things prophesied are things to - COME IN THE FUTURE

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

all of Revelation is about the future - not the present nor the past - the Book of Revelation was written about 30 years after Rome Destroyed the temple in Jerusalem

 

[Mr GLee]

In John's days, the devil truly was then "deceiving the whole world". An enraged Satan had been released at that time (in AD 33) from the millennial chain which had bound his deception of the nations, and he was operating at full throttle in those first century days - just like the "roaring lion walking about" to which 1 Peter 5:8 had compared Satan. Satan's great anger was in knowing that he only had a "short time" and a "little season" left to operate in this world.

That "short time" expired in AD 70 with the total destruction of all the members of the Satanic realm, as had been predicted. That day of judgment for Satan is long past. Paul told the Roman believers that God was going to crush Satan under their feet "shortly" in Romans 16:20 (written around AD 60). The end of that "short time" for Satan came in AD 70. The conditions in the "world to come" after that point are not in subjection to the presence of the wicked angelic realm anymore.

I would think the timing is when Jesus walked out of the temple made with human hands (the abomination of desolation) he declared it desolate in Mathew 23 .

Some use literal stones. as if the flesh of a Jew had not served its purpose to represent all the nations of the world Not just the Jewish world There is a remnant of stones that some cry out to hoping their flesh could profit.

Mathew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (not will become)For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

all of Revelation is about the future - not the present nor the past - the Book of Revelation was written about 10 to 30 years after Rome Destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, previous authors of the Bible mentioned nothing about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem

But yet, the Book of Revelation also does not specifically mention this destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem -

perhaps the author " john " did not know about the full extent of Jerusalem's destruction as he was writing from an Italian Nazi concentration camp completely cut off from Jerusalem

 

[3 Resurrections]

the Book of Revelation reveals that the things prophesied are things to - COME IN THE FUTURE

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

all of Revelation is about the future - not the present nor the past

More specifically, the YLT translation for Revelation 1:19 said that John was to write about things he had already seen (things in the past), "things that are" (present conditions in John's days for the 7 churches in Asia, for example), and "things which are about to be hereafter" (things which would soon take place in John's own days - not 2,000 plus years down the road from John's times).

if Satan had deceived the whole world in AD 70

why even read or quote from a Translation of a Book about Satan's deception that was not even translated until nearly 2000 years after Satan had deceived the whole world.

Satan had been in the process of again deceiving the nations after he was cast out of heaven down to earth at Christ's ascension in AD 33. This "short time" and "little season" following the end of the millennium in AD 33 until AD 70 arrived was all the time that Satan and his minions had left to operate in this world until Satan was burned to ashes on the earth, as predicted by Ezekiel 28:18-19.

Those receiving John's original message were warned of Satan's then-current, renewed deception of the whole world and its rulers, but Satan's deception would only last for a "short time" after John wrote the book of Revelation in AD 60 (not in the supposed AD 90's or later). We now can read about those past events for the same reason given to those reading the past events of the OT scriptures in Romans 15:4. "For whatsoever things are written aforetime, are written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

 

[Mr GLee]

all of Revelation is about the future - not the present nor the past - the Book of Revelation was written about 10 to 30 years after Rome Destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, previous authors of the Bible mentioned nothing about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem

But yet, the Book of Revelation also does not specifically mention this destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem -

perhaps the author " john " did not know about the full extent of Jerusalem's destruction as he was writing from an Italian Nazi concentration camp completely cut off from Jerusalem

Revelation. .. . . . things that were, things now and the future . Eternal God bringing his word in his seasons.

Not what some call dispensations as if God worked "let there be" differently in different time period,

He finished all the work in 6 days. Yoked with him we can rest as he makes the daily burdens lighter. . with a living hope beyond our last breath, we can pray give us that bread or meat the food the disciples knew not of. . power of God to do and finish the will of the father.

Ecclesiastic 3 provides a great commentary.

 

[GeneZ]

Its not human rulers we are being opposed by....

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, ​

against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in ​

the heavenly places." Ephesians 6:12​

The insanely incompetent leaders we see today, who do stupidly evil things that end up being self destructive, have been selected and chosen for their granted positions of power.

They are self centered human beings who have been scouted out by demons and evaluated, having been found to have the kind of arrogance needed to be duped into doing the bidding for Satan's desire for mankind.

The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. ​

And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and ​

I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.” Luke 4:5-7
​

The only thing that blesses a nation is when enough Christians in their given nation seek and listen for sound doctrine to overcome all the false doctrines that cites Scripture in distorted ways, which evil designed to flatter the carnal thinking emotion driven believers belief patterns.
If enough sound doctrinal thinking believers in a nation are found by God? They become like finding ten righteous in Sodom, having their nation preserved by God.

That is where we are today...

grace and peace ...............