Jesus is God {title edited}

[Eleanor]

Logos just means a word, speech, divine utterance, or analogy. Throughout the Bible God creates using words. God created the human Jesus.

Previously addressed (post #170).

God is light and in Him is not darkness. God cannot be tempted by evil.

Jesus was also man (Jn 1:14).

Jesus was tempted in every way as we are.

Yes, the man Jesus was fully man, who never sinned.

Is being susceptible to temptation a darkness? One may say, yes it is.

One may say, no it is not.

Therefore, Jesus isn't the "true light" but the light Jesus received was from God. God gives light to all men entering the world and it refers to life.
The Father is the Lord of heaven and earth:

Matt 11​

25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.​

The Father is the Lord of heaven and earth who gives life to everyone, including Jesus:

Acts 17​

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.​

Since Jesus is never called the Lord of heaven and earth one time in the Bible then he isn't God.

Who made that rule which contradicts the word of God in Jn 1:1, 14.

Your denial of the plain meanng of Jn 1:1, 14 has made you not eligible for NT doctrinal discussion with me regarding the nature of Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus died. What kind of a question is that?! What gymnastics are you doing in your head to even ask it? His body died. Just as your body and my body will die.

The sin sacrifice in Trinitarianism is the same one we find in the Bible.
Heb 9:28 So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Heb 10:4 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness, By his wounds you have been healed.

So your sacrifice is a human body? Are you sure? Is your human body going to be judged for its sin or is your soul going to get judged?

The human body will be left behind here on earth by the time we get there.

You are, when you ask me that question, once again overlaying your beliefs onto mine as though they were mine, and they are not. You are presuming that Jesus is a creature and the creature died, and that nothing else can be true. And if someone says it isn't true, then they have no sin sacrifice.

Do you contest that Jesus is made out of matter, compounds, and elements like all other humans?

Whereas I say that God the Son

"God the Son" isn't a Biblical phrase. That's you overlaying your beliefs on top of Christianity.

He came from out of God (Word made flesh)in the likeness of us, those He came to redeem. Fully human in nature, while also fully having the divine nature from which He came. A divine nature cannot be lost. A human nature was added to but not mixed with the divine, for the purposes of redemption and of necessity in order to redeem. So though Jesus died as Son of Man, Son of God---the divine nature---did not die. And it did not have to die to redeem man. Only the man had to die and rise again to life. And He did. And He returned to the Father who begot Him in the womb of the daughter of man.

But your premise of "God the Son" doesn't follow. There is nothing in regards to Jesus being God in the entire Bible. Otherwise, you did a good job with describing who Jesus is.

Now pick any man. Pick a holy and righteous man in the Bible if you wish. Pick any human being, but make it specific so as to get an accurate picture, and attach a hypothetical perfect righteousness to him.Then send him to the cross. And tell me, there was inherent in him the power and glory to atone for all the sins of all believers in all the world in all of time, past, present, and future. Lets, call him Jake. And then lets say about Jake the same things we say of Jesus--- Jake exalted to the right hand of God, Jake sitting upon God's throne, Jake judge over all people, creation being done through and by Jake. Eternal life coming to creatures through faith in Jake. Jake is the beginning and the end. Jake our High Priest interceding for us with the Father. Jake coming again to earth bearing a sword. The last enemy, death. put under Jake's feet. Jake born of a virgin. Jake the Messiah and Servant of Prophecy. David calling Jake His Lord. Do you get the picture? You have made Jesus to be a hypothetical Jake.

The Bible says Jesus is a man who God made both Lord and Christ. Your hypothetical story Jesus isn't in the Bible.

Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

 

[Runningman]

Irrelevant.
To be joined to the Lord involves worshiping the Lord.

Being one with God doesn't make someone God. Being one with Jesus doesn't make someone Jesus. The original point was that someone quoted the oneness with God as an alleged proof of Jesus being God. It's been debunked. You can move on.

 

[Arial]

All things isn't always literal in the Bible. It normally refers to a specific context. Wisdom, balance, and measure is needed to know when and where to apply literalism to words like "all" and "everything" or "the beginning" in the Bible. So let's look at some examples.

The question isn't about the different uses of "all" in this place or that place, or that it does not always mean all without exception. The question is what does it mean in Col 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
The passage itself identifies the "all" to mean every single thing created. And look at this. The same thing is said of the Father in Is 44:24Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;. Does God lie in His word, or are Jesus and the Father One? And is this "all things", is it not everything?

So all your deflecting into grammar has come to nought.

Your believe is that the word (logos) is Jesus where it suits you, but where the word is not Jesus do you have a workaround?

The Word is Jesus in John 1. The Word is Jesus in Rev 19:13. You start this post pointing out that "all" is not always used in the same way and informing us how important it is that we learn (from you as our example?) how to recognize the differences. Then here you turn around and accuse us of doing so, and you are the one who does not differentiate word, from words, from Word. And this still stands and has yet to be addressed. Posted in Jesus was never prayed to-- post #330, posted 2/8. by Arial.




So lets, try again. I will go back to the passages in John 1, and let's find out what the use of logos by John was intended. That is what matters. Not some generic definition of a translation---logos into word. It takes a bit of understanding of the culture in which John was living as a Jew, but a subject of the Roman Empire, surrounded by paganism. The gospel was most likely written around 90 a.d. Logos of course is a Greek word that in Greek philosophy, referred to logic or reason as an abstract force that brought order and harmony into the universe. In John's writings it was these qualities that he brought gathered in the person of Christ. (Jesus and Christ refer to the incarnation.) In both Greek philosophy and Neo-platonic philosophy of that day, as well as the Gnostic heresy, logos was seen as one of many intermediate powers between God and the world.

John said, no, there is one logos and He was in the beginning (Gen 1) and He was with God, and He was God. And repeats, He was with God in the beginning. And all things were made through Him. he is not using "word" poetically, and he is not using word as respect to speech. ὁ λόγος (John 1:1) which denotes the essential Word of God,i.e. the personal (hypostatic) wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in the creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah and shone forth conspiculously from His words and deeds. John 1:1,14; 1 John 5:7) from Strongs.

 

[Fred]

Being one with God doesn't make someone God. Being one with Jesus doesn't make someone Jesus. The original point was that someone quoted the oneness with God as an alleged proof of Jesus being God. It's been debunked. You can move on.

Irrelevant.

When the word "joined" is used in association with the Lord it means worshiping the Lord.

 

[Arial]

So your sacrifice is a human body?

No your sacrifice is a created human.

Is your human body going to be judged for its sin or is your soul going to get judged?

What does that have to do with the conversation? That is a whole other issue requiring its own examination.

The human body will be left behind here on earth by the time we get there.

Are you saying you do not believe in the resurrection of the dead? If so your faith is in vain according to scripture. 1 Cor 15:12-14 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then no even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

Do you contest that Jesus is made out of matter, compounds, and elements like all other humans?

He consisted of the elements that are common to the nature of humans. But He was not made from the earth. as Adam was, and Adam was not His father, as he is ours. Remember all those elements you speak of were created by God.

"God the Son" isn't a Biblical phrase. That's you overlaying your beliefs on top of Christianity.

It is what Christianity teaches my friend. You and @grace2 seem to think you can define Christianity by your own beliefs, but it doesn't work that way. Christianity is Christianity. Unitarianism is Unitarianism. And never the twain shall meet. But thanks again for thinking that imitating me in the words I use will get you where you are trying to go. It never will, but thanks justs the same.

But your premise of "God the Son" doesn't follow. There is nothing in regards to Jesus being God in the entire Bible.

You have been shown countless places where it is made clear that Jesus is God. In fact Son of God means God the Son. Even the stubborn, spiritually deaf and blind Pharisees knew that. The Son of God is equal with God.

The Bible says Jesus is a man who God made both Lord and Christ. Your hypothetical story Jesus isn't in the Bible.

God set a guard over my mouth!

Hypothetical means hypothetical so I have no idea what you intend to say by that sentence. Did you do the exercise anyway? And in doing so did you see the great disservice you do the Savior by thinking of Him as a mere Jake? Do you not see how a created man, no matter how perfectly righteous he is does not possess the necessary qualities to pay for the sins of all believers, of all time, past, present, and future? And to degrade Him like that is downright blasphemous to the glory of our Lord? No?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Yes, if you are in Jesus. Are you a universalist? Because there are prerequisites for Jesus giving someone eternal life. He didn't intend to say he gives everything eternal life with the authority delegated to him.

Romans 6
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And yet Jesus gives eternal life. More evidence that He is God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

All things isn't always literal in the Bible.

Do you really want to die on this hill?

“without him was not any thing made that was made.”

 

[Runningman]

And yet Jesus gives eternal life. More evidence that He is God.

And yet no one can come to Jesus unless the Father allows it. More proof Jesus isn’t God.

 

[Runningman]

Do you really want to die on this hill?

“without him was not any thing made that was made.”

Do you really want to die on this hill?

The image of God made everything? That’s not a Biblical doctrine.

Is your god an image?

 

[Mr GLee]

Sloppy doctrine and theology based in human reasoning rather than divine revelation. . .

Christ was not a divine man, Christ was a human man with both a human spirit and a Divine Spirit, making him both man and God in one person.

Christ meaning the anointing or teaching Spirit called the Holy Spirit.

He works in mankind the Son of man Jesus as well all born again sons of God

 

[Fred]

1 Corinthians 6
17

To join oneself to YHWH entails praying to YHWH.
Isaiah 56:3
Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”


To join oneself to Baal entails praying to Baal.
Numbers 25:3
So Israel joined themselves to Baal of Peor, and the LORD was angry against Israel.


To join oneself to the Lord (in reference to Jesus) entails praying to Jesus.
1 Corinthians 6:17
But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

 

[Runningman]

To join oneself to YHWH entails praying to YHWH.
Isaiah 56:3
Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”


To join oneself to Baal entails praying to Baal.
Numbers 25:3
So Israel joined themselves to Baal of Peor, and the LORD was angry against Israel.


To join oneself to the Lord (in reference to Jesus) entails praying to Jesus.
1 Corinthians 6:17
But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Being one with someone doesn't make someone God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Do you really want to die on this hill?

The image of God made everything? That’s not a Biblical doctrine.

Is your god an image?

Okay, so, Jesus is like the ultimate savior, not just God's representative, but actually like God Himself.Jjust check out Colossians 1:19 and John 1:1–2, 14–18. It's all there. Jesus is like this perfect picture of God, and at the same time, He's God for real. It's wild, right? The Son is like this clear window into the invisible God. He shows us what God's all about, His power, wisdom, and goodness, everything that makes Him who He is. It's pretty awesome, if you ask me.

And as the last part of the text says, the entire Godhead dwells in him, so yes, he certainly can and did have a hand in creating everything.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

And yet no one can come to Jesus unless the Father allows it. More proof Jesus isn’t God.

I think you mean unless the father draws them. And no one can come to the father except… What reason would you guess?

 

[Runningman]

The question isn't about the different uses of "all" in this place or that place, or that it does not always mean all without exception. The question is what does it mean in Col 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
The passage itself identifies the "all" to mean every single thing created. And look at this. The same thing is said of the Father in Is 44:24Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;. Does God lie in His word, or are Jesus and the Father One? And is this "all things", is it not everything?

If everything and all are demonstrably not literally everything and/or all then the metric of interpretation you and others are applying to Colossians 1:16 is subjective at best. Upon further investigation into the context, it's erroneous. As previously stated, the "image of God" isn't God. One with the "fullness of God" in them isn't God.

The context refers to the church. It's all about what Jesus' lordship over the church and what he accomplished through his blood of the cross.

Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of Jesus demonstrably not being the creator, not being the Lord of heaven and earth, not being God, not being YHWH, etc. We have gone over them many times. Perhaps this is not an issue of scripture, but rather an issue of belief.

So all your deflecting into grammar has come to nought.

The Word is Jesus in John 1. The Word is Jesus in Rev 19:13. You start this post pointing out that "all" is not always used in the same way and informing us how important it is that we learn (from you as our example?) how to recognize the differences. Then here you turn around and accuse us of doing so, and you are the one who does not differentiate word, from words, from Word. And this still stands and has yet to be addressed. Posted in Jesus was never prayed to-- post #330, posted 2/8. by Arial.




So lets, try again. I will go back to the passages in John 1, and let's find out what the use of logos by John was intended. That is what matters. Not some generic definition of a translation---logos into word. It takes a bit of understanding of the culture in which John was living as a Jew, but a subject of the Roman Empire, surrounded by paganism. The gospel was most likely written around 90 a.d. Logos of course is a Greek word that in Greek philosophy, referred to logic or reason as an abstract force that brought order and harmony into the universe. In John's writings it was these qualities that he brought gathered in the person of Christ. (Jesus and Christ refer to the incarnation.) In both Greek philosophy and Neo-platonic philosophy of that day, as well as the Gnostic heresy, logos was seen as one of many intermediate powers between God and the world.

John said, no, there is one logos and He was in the beginning (Gen 1) and He was with God, and He was God. And repeats, He was with God in the beginning. And all things were made through Him. he is not using "word" poetically, and he is not using word as respect to speech. ὁ λόγος (John 1:1) which denotes the essential Word of God,i.e. the personal (hypostatic) wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in the creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah and shone forth conspiculously from His words and deeds. John 1:1,14; 1 John 5:7) from Strongs.

The rest of this is just your arguing to the contrary because you simply don't want to accept that the grammar and translations, upon scrutiny, don't actually produce the desired outcome of what your theology states. It's possibly to have a theology and hunt for what confirms it while completely missing the truth. The correct way is to forget the theology and read the Bible for what it plainly says about the Father, YHWH, being the Sovereign Lord and creator of heaven and earth. Jesus isn't YHWH, Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Jesus isn't the actual creator

By there mere fact that Jesus is the servant of the creator means he isn't the creator. That being the case, you simply are not understanding the verses you're proof texting in their appropriate contexts. I mean this humbly, and sincerely, truly hoping it helps.

Acts 4
24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
...
...
27In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Being one with someone doesn't make someone God.

It does when it means singularity. There are two basic meanings for “being one with” in the Bible. one means to be an agreement in thought and purpose and the other means to be single.

 

[Fred]

Being one with someone doesn't make someone God.

Being joined to the Lord entails praying to the Lord.

 

[Runningman]

No your sacrifice is a created human.

Since Jesus was a created human then who or what is your sacrifice under the trinity? Who actually died for your sins as scripture states?

Romans 5
6For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

What does that have to do with the conversation? That is a whole other issue requiring its own examination.

It has everything to do with this conversation. The matter is that if the human body is irrelevant to sin and won't be judged for sin then what do you think Chris sacrificed?

When Jesus was sacrificed there was no more Jesus left. Jesus was completely sacrificed. Mind, body, soul, and spirit. There was no Jesus to resurrect himself after this which is why the Bible doesn't say Jesus actually acted upon his body to resurrect himself. God the Father resurrected Jesus or the "Spirit of Him who resurrected Jesus." Either way it refers to the Father.


Godbey New Testament
John 15
13No one has greater love than this, that he may lay down his soul for his friends.
Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Are you saying you do not believe in the resurrection of the dead? If so your faith is in vain according to scripture. 1 Cor 15:12-14 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then no even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

Yes, the resurrection of the dead is real, but Jesus was not resurrected until three days later.

He consisted of the elements that are common to the nature of humans. But He was not made from the earth. as Adam was, and Adam was not His father, as he is ours. Remember all those elements you speak of were created by God.

Yes, the elements were created by God the Father. Therefore Jesus was created.

It is what Christianity teaches my friend. You and @grace2 seem to think you can define Christianity by your own beliefs, but it doesn't work that way. Christianity is Christianity. Unitarianism is Unitarianism. And never the twain shall meet. But thanks again for thinking that imitating me in the words I use will get you where you are trying to go. It never will, but thanks justs the same.

I wouldn't conflate trinitarianism with Christianity. The Bible is Christianity and doesn't teach "God the Son." It's your miscellaneous creeds and and commentaries that teach "God the Son." That's an important difference.

You have been shown countless places where it is made clear that Jesus is God. In fact Son of God means God the Son. Even the stubborn, spiritually deaf and blind Pharisees knew that. The Son of God is equal with God.

There is not one place.

God set a guard over my mouth!

Hypothetical means hypothetical so I have no idea what you intend to say by that sentence. Did you do the exercise anyway? And in doing so did you see the great disservice you do the Savior by thinking of Him as a mere Jake? Do you not see how a created man, no matter how perfectly righteous he is does not possess the necessary qualities to pay for the sins of all believers, of all time, past, present, and future? And to degrade Him like that is downright blasphemous to the glory of our Lord? No?

A begotten Son is created and didn't always exist therefore he isn't eternal. Therefore he's created. By the fact alone of being begotten he was created.

Hebrews 1
5For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?

 

[Runningman]

N/a