Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Dave_Regenerated]

His word is Alive and Active....do you honestly think God can only speak to his children through the Bible?

Do you understand what this means?

Hebrews 4:12​

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New International Version​

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12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

In Acts, there are people that had no Bible and were told to believe in Jesus and they were saved.

 

[fastfredy0]

I've talked to people personally who have these testimonies and they said they didn't hear anything before.

Yes ... that what I tried to allude to in my example. They must have heard something during (not necessarily before) their conversion. Again, faith requires knowledge; something to believe.

So, guy heard nothing.... Christ appears and says "I am giving you knowledge and trust that you are saved because you believe I saved you. ... then Christ disappears. That would do it.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes ... that what I tried to allude to in my example. They must have heard something during (not necessarily before) their conversion. Again, faith requires knowledge; something to believe.

So, guy heard nothing.... Christ appears and says "I am giving you knowledge and trust that you are saved because you believe I saved you. ... then Christ disappears. That would do it.

Yes..God brought me to believe in Jesus...i wasn’t even thinking about him..then “ Boom” he came into my thoughts..the rest is history....

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Yes ... that what I tried to allude to in my example. They must have heard something during (not necessarily before) their conversion. Again, faith requires knowledge; something to believe.

So, guy heard nothing.... Christ appears and says "I am giving you knowledge and trust that you are saved because you believe I saved you. ... then Christ disappears. That would do it.

No, they said they knew nothing about it.

That doesn't fit your belief system, so it must be incorrect.

 

[Ritajanice]

No, they said they knew nothing about it.

That doesn't fit your belief system, so it must be incorrect.

So, they had never heard of Jesus, is that what you are saying?

 

[fastfredy0]

No, they said they knew nothing about it.

So ... you are saying .... some power came upon a guy and now he is saved. You are saying this guy knows nothing of Christ and he is saved.
Again, I'm not saying the guy had to know anything about God before his conversion .... I am saying he learnt something (got knowledge) during his conversion ... .whereas you seem to be saying that the guy knew nothing about Christ before, during and after being saved.
... so faith doesn't necessarily come by hearing of Christ ....???

That doesn't fit your belief system, so it must be incorrect.

Yes, the scenario does not fit my belief system so IMO it is not true.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

So ... you are saying .... some power came upon a guy and now he is saved. You are saying this guy knows nothing of Christ and he is saved.
Again, I'm not saying the guy had to know anything about God before his conversion .... I am saying he learnt something (got knowledge) during his conversion ... .whereas you seem to be saying that the guy knew nothing about Christ before, during and after being saved.
... so faith doesn't necessarily come by hearing of Christ ....???


Yes, the scenario does not fit my belief system so IMO it is not true.

A guy? I mentioned more than one. Where are you deriving your assumptions from?

Yes, I am saying (for the third time) they knew nothing about the Gospel or the Bible and God saved them. You want to try to make that wrong, but you are wrong.

I'm sorry you can't accept the facts as they have been presented to you. Feel free to disagree with things that don't fit into your worldview. I don't need to follow up with explanations of simple facts that at face value don't comply with your belief system.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

So ... you are saying .... some power came upon a guy and now he is saved. You are saying this guy knows nothing of Christ and he is saved.
Again, I'm not saying the guy had to know anything about God before his conversion .... I am saying he learnt something (got knowledge) during his conversion ... .whereas you seem to be saying that the guy knew nothing about Christ before, during and after being saved.
... so faith doesn't necessarily come by hearing of Christ ....???


Yes, the scenario does not fit my belief system so IMO it is not true.

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God". God is the Word, and faith comes from God and hearing comes from God. It does not require a middleman to impart it, it does not require having access to the Bible (most of the first Christians really had no Bibles as we know them today) and it doesn't depend upon your bad exegesis.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

This is unhealthy. You are talking on a forum to strangers that argue with you and you don't even know if they are genuine people or trolls. No matter how many times you are clear and straightforward in your communication, they will find some fault with your sentences or otherwise berate you in subtle ways.

I cannot in conscience continue to post messages on the internet in discussions with people that say they agree with you one moment and then nit pick you at other times. A never ending exercise in futility.

It would be better for society if the internet was destroyed. It causes nothing but problems.

Please delete my account.

 

[Arial]

His word is Alive and Active....do you honestly think God can only speak to his children through the Bible?

Do you understand what this means?

Hebrews 4:12​

​

New International Version​

​

​

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The question is do you understand what it means? I understand it perfectly without isolating it from the sum total of what all the scriptures teach.
Salvation does not come by way of osmosis. It comes by way of hearing something and believing something. And that something is specific and is a Who.

But all you are doing is arguing instead of listening, and you are doing so when you deal specifically with me, as though you know much more than I do. A position of arrogance really. Down talking. Maybe pride not wanting to yield. Who knows? Who can say? Who really cares?

But I am not going to sit here and argue with you.

 

[prism]

I believe so

I guess God knows the heart, maybe that's what @Ritajanice means, but that would mean some have purer hearts than others, which flatly goes against Romans chapter 3.

 

[Arial]

In Acts, there are people that had no Bible and were told to believe in Jesus and they were saved.

Like who?

And they were told about Jesus, and that is what they believed. Besides which you don't know if they had any scriptures or not----which was the OT at that time. Cornelius for one, a Gentile, had the scriptures.

 

[Arial]

To know God in the heart..takes no knowledge as he is the one who births us.

How is it possible to know something without having knowledge?

 

[Arial]

I guess God knows the heart, maybe that's what @Ritajanice means, but that would mean some have purer hearts than others, which flatly goes against Romans chapter 3.

@Ritajanice When the Bible speaks of God knowing a heart, it means that only God can judge whether a person belongs to Christ or not. We cannot make that judgement because we can't see into another's heart.

But feel free to argue about it.

 

[Ritajanice]

The question is do you understand what it means? I understand it perfectly without isolating it from the sum total of what all the scriptures teach.
Salvation does not come by way of osmosis. It comes by way of hearing something and believing something. And that something is specific and is a Who.

It comes by God’s Living word..which I understand perfectly...why does it need isolating, what does that mean even?

He’s telling you that his word is Alive and Active..what more does one needs to know?...as it was for me as he birthed me in the Spirit..he opened my heart to receive and hear...then gave me those eyes to see his amazing creation through the living Spirit.



But all you are doing is arguing instead of listening, and you are doing so when you deal specifically with me, as though you know much more than I do. A position of arrogance really. Down talking. Maybe pride not wanting to yield. Who knows? Who can say? Who really cares?

But I am not going to sit here and argue with you.

I asked you the question...
That is your assumption that I know more than you.

And there you go judging my speck ,when you should be looking at your own plank.

Look at the way “ YOU” too ....speak to believers....we self aware.

You can’t “ tell” believers how to be Born again..only God can do that...

 

[Ritajanice]

How is it possible to know something without having knowledge?

As I already explained that knowledge comes when we are being birthed in the Spirit as God relays his living word to our mind through the Holy Spirit...as he’s indwelling us...and our spirit recognises his living word straight away.

Not sure what’s funny about that.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Ritajanice When the Bible speaks of God knowing a heart, it means that only God can judge whether a person belongs to Christ or not. We cannot make that judgement because we can't see into another's heart.

But feel free to argue about it.

Who said otherwise?

I’m not arguing...I’m disagreeing with you on certain posts...same as you disagree with me...

 

[atpollard]

Why on earth would anyone believe that God drawing us to Jesus...to some means dragging...seriously, I can’t get my head around that one.

Part of me wants to just shut up and keep quiet, but part of me wants to answer what appears to be an honest question, so I will surface from (lurking) BRIEFLY to offer a response to "Why?":

Let's really study every place the word [G1670] appears in the Bible ...

[John 6:44 NASB20] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

• The verse we are looking at to decide ... "draw" = invite or compel? (choice or no choice)

[John 12:32 NASB20] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all [people] to Myself."

• Does Jesus "invite or compel" in this verse? Can't tell (begging the question fallacy since it is the exact same context) ... could be either.

[John 18:10 NASB20] 10 Then Simon Peter, since he had a sword, drew[G1670] it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.

• Does the soldier "invite or compel" in this verse? Does the sword have the option to remain in the scabbard and still be "drawn"? No, the sword MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice)

[John 21:6 NASB20] 6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat, and you will find [the fish.]" So they cast [it,] and then they were not able to haul[G1670] it in because of the great quantity of fish.

• Does the fisherman "invite or compel" in this verse? Does the net have the choice to be "drawn"? No, the net MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice). In this case the net did not come, so the verse says "not able to haul" ... but it was not by choice.

[John 21:11 NASB20] 11 So Simon Peter went up and hauled[G1670] the net to land, full of large fish, and although there were so many, the net was not torn.

• Does the fisherman "invite or compel" in this verse? Does the net have the choice to be "drawn"? No, the net MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice). In this case the net did come, so the verse says "hauled" ... but it was not by the net's choice.

[Acts 16:19 NASB20] 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was [suddenly] gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged[G1670] them into the marketplace before the authorities,

• Were Paul and Silas "invited or compelled" in this verse? Did they have the option to decline the invitation to visit the magistrate? No, they MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice). This case is the closest parallel to the Father drawing men to the Son ... it involves drawing people to a person.

[Acts 21:30 NASB20] 30 Then the whole city was provoked and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged[G1670] him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

• Was Paul "invited or compelled" in this verse? Did Paul have the option to decline the invitation to leave the temple? No, he MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice).

[James 2:6 NASB20] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag[G1670] you into court?

• Were the poor "invited or compelled" in this verse? Did the poor have the option to decline the invitation to go to court? No, they MUST go and "draw" = compel (no choice).

So looking at EVERY use of Strong's G1670, John 6:44 and John 12:32 both reference men drawn to Christ and are the case we are attempting to determine whether "draw" means "an invitation that one can refuse" or "to irresistibly compel". They are parallel and equivalent and simply "beg the question" (both verses could mean either "invite" or "compel"). The other 6 verses (John 18:10; John 21:6; John 21:11; Acts 16:19; Acts 21:30; James 2:6) all contain a version of "draw" that can only mean "to irresistibly compel". Thus from Biblical usage, "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:32 probably also, both, mean "to irresistibly compel" ... like the sword, the fish in the net, Paul and Silas in the hands of the mob and the poor dragged into court.

In THAT SAME WAY, the Father DRAWS men to the Son (John 6:44) and the Crucifixion draws Jews and Gentiles to Salvation (John 12:32).

 

[fastfredy0]

Salvation does not come by way of osmosis. It comes by way of hearing something and believing something. And that something is specific and is a Who.

Phew ... someone here agrees with me ... *giggle*

 

[Ritajanice]

Phew ... someone here agrees with me ... *giggle*

Why does someone have to agree with you. .?

I don’t care if no one agrees with me why would I?

I post what I believe I am receiving through the Holy Spirit.