Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[Josheb]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?​

Possibly, but imo, no.

If death no longer exists in eternity, then neither do the dead.

 

[Carbon]

Possibly, but imo, no.

If death no longer exists in eternity, then neither do the dead.

Id death no longer exists, what is the secone death.
Wjhat is death?

 

[CherubRam]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?​

Can the breath of God be destroyed?
In Genesis, God breathed into the lifeless clay and Man became a living being. The words “breath” and “wind” and “soul” and “spirit” (both man’s spirit and the Holy Spirit) are all related words. Therein lies the source of the concept of the Imageo Dei (Image of God). So we know that the soul (literally “breath”) survives past the death of the body. We know that some “souls” go on to “eternal life” and others to “eternal punishment”. We know that many things, including DEATH and the GRAVE are ultimately destroyed by being cast into a fiery lake at the end of Revelation (it is irrelevant whether this is literal of symbolic - both reflect a SPIRITUAL reality).

So the question becomes, can this God-breathed “soul” be destroyed? Can the breath of God ever be destroyed?

• If YES, then destruction is eternal, but torment may not be.
• If NO, then eternal punishment lasts as long as eternal life and is a soul’s forever state.

It is a question far above my pay grade and one I am content to trust God to make the RIGHT decision (whatever He decides).

Death and the grave are done away with after the final Judgement. "The Lake" is parabolic for a body of people, and the "smoke or fire" is parabolic for Judgement.


Revelation 12:15
Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
Sent a column of soldiers, which from above looks like a flowing stream.


Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, “The waters" you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

This is a short list of the word FIRE being used to mean JUDGEMENT.

Psalm 78:21
When the LORD heard them, he was furious; his fire broke out against Jacob, and his wrath rose against Israel,

Psalm 79:5
How long, LORD? Will you be angry forever? How long will your jealousy burn like fire?

Psalm 89:46
How long, LORD? Will you hide yourself forever? How long will your wrath burn like fire?

Psalm 104:4
He makes [winds / spirits] his messengers, flames of fire his servants.

Isaiah 4:4
The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

Isaiah 66:15
See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Isaiah 66:16
For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment on all people, and many will be those slain by the LORD.

Deuteronomy 32:22. For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of sheol below.

Amos 7:4
This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land.

Hebrews 10:27
but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
The word "fire and lightning" is often used as a parable to mean judgment. In one place the word "coal" means judgment. And where there is smoke there is fire, so the word smoke can also be used as a parable to mean judgment.

KJV
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be (touch stoned / tormented) with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Since those people are (Touch Stoned,) then they are (Rubbed Out.) (DEAD)

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their (touch stoned / torment) ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Touch stoned

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be (touch stoned / tormented) day and night for ever and ever.
Touch stoned

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If Hell is done away with in the second death, then how can there be anyone to torment?

The Hebrew word sheol means grave and nothing else.

When used as a parable "thunder" can mean action, and lightning can mean judgement.

Mark 3:17
James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”),
Sons of Action.

Psalm 29:3
The voice of the Lord is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the Lord thunders over the mighty waters.

Joel 2:11
The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty is the army that obeys his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

 

[CherubRam]

Zechariah 3:8
" 'Listen, O high priest [of] Joshua [Yahshua] and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come:
9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes
The stone is the (corner stone.)

Mark 3:17
James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder

Revelation 1:19. "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampsticks is this: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven congregations, and the seven lampsticks are the seven congregations.

Revelation 4:5
From the throne came flashes of lightning, (judgement) rumblings and peals of thunder (action.) Before the throne, seven lampsticks were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 10:3
and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. (Sons of Action)

Revelation 10:4
And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down." (Sons of Action)

Revelation 19:6
Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. (Sons of Action)



Seven Eyes
Zechariah 3:9
See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

Zechariah 4:10
“Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone in the hand of Zerubbabel?”

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

 

[CherubRam]

You should see post 8.

Also this from A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature:

βασανισμός, οῦ, ὁ
② the severe pain experienced through torture, torment ...14:11

Let me guess, you ignore what I write, because you know in your mind and heart that I am wrong.

 

[Fred]

Let me guess, you ignore what I write, because you know in your mind and heart that I am wrong.

Let me guess, you choose to engage in fairy tale definitions no matter how many Greek lexicons I quote.

 

[atpollard]

If Hell is done away with in the second death, then how can there be anyone to torment?

“Hell” is a sloppy translation for one of several different Greek words. In this case “Grave” is a better translation since the Greek word is “the place of the dead” rather than “the place of punishment”.

 

[atpollard]

Death and the grave are done away with after the final Judgement. "The Lake" is parabolic for a body of people, and the "smoke or fire" is parabolic for Judgement.

The Lake of Fire does not fit well with this hermeneutic. Irrespective of whether the “Lake of Fire” is literal or figurative for ANYTHING, the context of DEATH and the GRAVE being cast into the LAKE OF FIRE is that both DEATH and the GRAVE are no longer needed (thus “destroyed” is implied).

 

[CherubRam]

The Lake of Fire does not fit well with this hermeneutic. Irrespective of whether the “Lake of Fire” is literal or figurative for ANYTHING, the context of DEATH and the GRAVE being cast into the LAKE OF FIRE is that both DEATH and the GRAVE are no longer needed (thus “destroyed” is implied).

Correct.

Revelation 21:4
‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

[CherubRam]

You should see post 8.

Also this from A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature:

βασανισμός, οῦ, ὁ
② the severe pain experienced through torture, torment ...14:11

Your link does not work, and I am not going to register.

 

[CherubRam]

Let me guess, you choose to engage in fairy tale definitions no matter how many Greek lexicons I quote.

The word TORTURE is an INTERPRETATION for TOUCH STONE. Rubbed out is, dead.

 

[CherubRam]

Let me guess, you choose to engage in fairy tale definitions no matter how many Greek lexicons I quote.

Strong's Concordance
basanos: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), hence examination by torture, torture
Original Word: βάσανος, ου, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: basanos
Phonetic Spelling: (bas'-an-os)
Definition: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), examination by torture, torture
Usage: torture, torment, examination by torture.


Torture and torment is an INTERPRETATION for (touch stone.) IT IS NOT A TRANSLATION OF THE WORD (TOUCH STONE.)

Touchstone is a parable for rubbed out. (Dead)

 

[Fred]

Your link does not work, and I am not going to register.

I didn't give a link.

 

[Fred]

Strong's Concordance
basanos: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), hence examination by torture, torture
Original Word: βάσανος, ου, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: basanos
Phonetic Spelling: (bas'-an-os)
Definition: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), examination by torture, torture
Usage: torture, torment, examination by torture.


Torture and torment is an INTERPRETATION for (touch stone.) IT IS NOT A TRANSLATION OF THE WORD (TOUCH STONE.)

Touchstone is a parable for rubbed out. (Dead)

I'll go with Greek lexicons.

Since your thrilled with Strong's instead have at it:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
torment.
Perhaps remotely from the same as basis (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch-stone, i.e. (by analogy) torture--torment.


See here for more help:
HELPS Word-studies
931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]

Strong's Greek: 931. βάσανος (basanos) -- a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), hence examination by torture, torture

 

[3 Resurrections]

No rest day and night (= forever and ever) for the unsaved (Revelation 14:10), which is tormenting, corresponds to being tormented day and night (= forever and ever) for Satan, the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 20:10).
Both groups are assigned to (1) the same place (The Lake of Fire) and both groups undergo (2) conscious torment forever and ever.

Regular day and night is still going on during this time of torment. That means we are talking about a location on our planet.

This is not the afterlife condition for the wicked, because the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast and the False Prophet (the Rev. 13 Beast from the Land) were to be thrown "alive" into this Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20). The Lake of Fire was called the "second death" because it was the second time that Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed since its first death under the Babylonian destruction in 586 BC. Both times the city was burned, and some say on the same day of the year. Both times Death and Hell (the Grave) descended upon the city and overcame its tormented inhabitants (as in Isaiah 28:14-19 and Revelation20:14).

Also, this torment is being experienced by these individuals directly in the eyesight and presence ("enopion") of these holy angels and of the Lamb. In other words, these angels and the Lamb are in the same location as those being tormented. This is not describing the conditions of the afterlife for the wicked, because there is no "afterlife" existence of the wicked dead. Their fate is to utterly perish in the judgment, which is completely opposite to the destiny of the righteous dead.

The scripture's use of "forever" does not always mean something perpetual with no ending point. As in the case of Isaiah 32:13-15. "Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city: Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens forever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high..." So, in this case, "forever" is a continual condition until a point in time when something occurs to change that continual condition.

 

[Fred]

these angels and the Lamb are in the same location as those being tormented. This is not describing the conditions of the afterlife for the wicked, because there is no "afterlife" existence of the wicked dead. Their fate is to utterly perish in the judgment, which is completely opposite to the destiny of the righteous dead.

Circular reasoning.
You just asserted what you haven't proven.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Circular reasoning.
You just asserted what you haven't proven.

I didn't need to supply the proof for this, since @Hobie already gave a substantial list of texts in the very first #1 post, proving that the wicked dead will perish.

The opposite of eternal life for the righteous is not tormented eternal life for the wicked.
The opposite of eternal life for the righteous is an eternal death sentence of destruction for the wicked which is never rescinded.

 

[CherubRam]

I'll go with Greek lexicons.

Since your thrilled with Strong's instead have at it:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
torment.
Perhaps remotely from the same as basis (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch-stone, i.e. (by analogy) torture--torment.


See here for more help:
HELPS Word-studies
931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]

Strong's Greek: 931. βάσανος (basanos) -- a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), hence examination by torture, torture

I'll go with Greek lexicons.

Since your thrilled with Strong's instead have at it:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
torment.
Perhaps remotely from the same as basis (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch-stone, i.e. (by analogy) torture--torment.


See here for more help:
HELPS Word-studies
931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]

Strong's Greek: 931. βάσανος (basanos) -- a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), hence examination by torture, torture

Torture and torment is an INTERPRETATION for (touch stone.)

 

[Fred]

I didn't need to supply the proof for this, since @Hobie already gave a substantial list of texts

Non-answer.

The opposite of eternal life for the righteous is not tormented eternal life for the wicked.
The opposite of eternal life for the righteous is an eternal death sentence of destruction for the wicked which is never rescinded.

The words of the Bible are properly defined one way, but your confusion insists on something else.

 

[Fred]

Torture and torment is an INTERPRETATION for (touch stone.)

A correct one.