How God gives us Truth.

[Hobie]

God has given us and explained to men spiritual truths in the following ways..

By using visible phenomena of His creation and men`s lives such as Job.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

By examples, figures, allegories and likenesses of history and describing the truth by symbols, signs, images, parables and designs.

Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

He also used the earthly sanctuary and the ceremonies to point to Christ and His purpose...

Exodus 25:8-9
8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Exodus 25:40
And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

 

[Josheb]

God has given us and explained to men spiritual truths in the following ways..

By using visible phenomena of His creation and men`s lives such as Job.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

By examples, figures, allegories and likenesses of history and describing the truth by symbols, signs, images, parables and designs.

Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

He also used the earthly sanctuary and the ceremonies to point to Christ and His purpose...

Exodus 25:8-9
8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Exodus 25:40
And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

This is true. Is there a relevant Theological Question?

 

[Hobie]

This is true. Is there a relevant Theological Question?

Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives, just to name a few...
The Second Coming of Christ to take us to heaven. That Jesus will come soon and take us to His heavenly kingdom has been an core belief. That Jesus will come remains solid, but now it is not sustainable except in general terms to say nothing of Him taking us to heaven..

The 7th-Day Sabbath is another. Many Christians are beginning to accept Sabbath keeping, the Sabbath concept of 24 hours of sacred time, but others avoid the Sabbath/Seventh Day given in the Bible on which to do it.

Truth of Soul Sleep and Hell is making headway but still fighting the corruption that the devil brought in. Gods Word show us the soul sleeps in death, and man is not immortal of himself. The pagan immortality of soul got grafted into Christian belief and corrupted the truth giving in Gods Word, to say nothing of how the pagan concept of the underworld got picked up into what Christians hold toady..

 

[Josheb]

Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives, just to name a few...
The Second Coming of Christ to take us to heaven. That Jesus will come soon and take us to His heavenly kingdom has been an core belief. That Jesus will come remains solid, but now it is not sustainable except in general terms to say nothing of Him taking us to heaven..

The 7th-Day Sabbath is another. Many Christians are beginning to accept Sabbath keeping, the Sabbath concept of 24 hours of sacred time, but others avoid the Sabbath/Seventh Day given in the Bible on which to do it.

Truth of Soul Sleep and Hell is making headway but still fighting the corruption that the devil brought in. Gods Word show us the soul sleeps in death, and man is not immortal of himself. The pagan immortality of soul got grafted into Christian belief and corrupted the truth giving in Gods Word, to say nothing of how the pagan concept of the underworld got picked up into what Christians hold toady..

Do you see the paradox in your reply to my inquiry?

Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives is paradoxical to everything modern futurism teaches! If the concern is genuinely following the truth God gives and understanding why Christians don't, the modern futurism must be abandoned in its entirety. You will experientially understand the answer to the question the minute you do so, and fully understanding the answer(s) anyone her might post will not be possible while still on the throes of modern futurism. This should be obvious from the simple fact modern futurists have never made a single true prediction in 200 years. The utter lack of truth is not only speaking bluntly to the question, "Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives?" Scripture explicitly states people who do that sort of thing should not be given any credence or followed.

Scripturally speaking, modern futurism is never stated in scripture as taught by modern futurists, especially those of the pre-tribulational premillennial variety. Theologically speaking, modern futurism is a man-made invention of the 19th century that grossly contradicts much of what historical orthodox Christianity has always taught, and its teachings are irreconcilable with both plainly read scripture, and historically orthodox Christianity. Educationally speaking, modern futurism is learned solely from other modern futurists. It's not possible to obtain modern futurism from an exegetical reading of scripture alone. It is, therefore, not likely that any answer posted to the question, "Why do Christians not follow the truth of God?" can or will be understood by the modern futurist!

 

[Hobie]

Do you see the paradox in your reply to my inquiry?

Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives is paradoxical to everything modern futurism teaches! If the concern is genuinely following the truth God gives and understanding why Christians don't, the modern futurism must be abandoned in its entirety. You will experientially understand the answer to the question the minute you do so, and fully understanding the answer(s) anyone her might post will not be possible while still on the throes of modern futurism. This should be obvious from the simple fact modern futurists have never made a single true prediction in 200 years. The utter lack of truth is not only speaking bluntly to the question, "Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives?" Scripture explicitly states people who do that sort of thing should not be given any credence or followed.

Scripturally speaking, modern futurism is never stated in scripture as taught by modern futurists, especially those of the pre-tribulational premillennial variety. Theologically speaking, modern futurism is a man-made invention of the 19th century that grossly contradicts much of what historical orthodox Christianity has always taught, and its teachings are irreconcilable with both plainly read scripture, and historically orthodox Christianity. Educationally speaking, modern futurism is learned solely from other modern futurists. It's not possible to obtain modern futurism from an exegetical reading of scripture alone. It is, therefore, not likely that any answer posted to the question, "Why do Christians not follow the truth of God?" can or will be understood by the modern futurist!

You arent satisfied with any answers it seems, a verse comes to mind..

2 Timothy 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Josheb]

You arent satisfied with any answers it seems, a verse comes to mind.

Nothing in this thread is about me. The op is yours and only you can evidence it, explain it, and prove it. No one else can speak for you.

2 Timothy 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Nice, godless scripture-abusing ad hominem.

Now can I get some answers to the questions asked, or are we going to have another thread in which you insinuate negatives about me personally and never discuss your own assertions?

• Is there a specific theological question not asked but to be answered with the posting of this op? If not then it is in the wrong board. If so then please post the question to be answered.
• Do you see the paradox presented by Post 3 given modern futurism is not something taught in scripture and not something Christians have historically held to be an orthodox eschatology?

Presumably, neither question is difficult to answer AND the immediate, direct answers to those questions would move the discussion along. Asked once. No answers. Now asked twice.

Would you please lay aside any obstacles preventing you from answering the questions asked and, speaking for yourself in support of your op, would you please answer the questions asked.

That Jesus will come soon and take us to His heavenly kingdom has been an core belief.

No, it has not.

Christians have always believed Jesus will return at the end of the age to gather his harvest, but Christians have not always believed that will occur "soon." What they have always believed is imminence, not soon-ness. Modern futurism is an invention of the 19th century. Dispensationalism and its modern futurist iterations elevates eschatology to a preeminent doctrine when, historically speaking, Christianity has NEVER done that. Modern futurism alone separates the rapture from the final return of Christ. It is NOT a "core belief" of Christianity. It is a core belief of modern futurism, not orthodox Christianity.

And when I ask you very plain, very direct, very simply questions that are, presumably very easily answered from your perspective, I will appreciate it if I receive equally plain, direct, and simple answers so we can move the conversation forward in attempt to achieve some semblance of agreement with the whole of God's word.

• Is there a specific theological question not asked but to be answered with the posting of this op? If not, then this op is in the wrong board. If so, then please post the question to be answered.
• Do you see the paradox presented by Post 3 given modern futurism is not something taught in scripture and not something Christians have historically held to be an orthodox eschatology?

Succinct answers to the questions asked are appreciated. Thx

Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives[?]

Christians do follow the truth God gives. Christians follow it imperfectly, but God's truth is followed. This op is a good example of imperfectly following God's truth because scripture does not separate the rapture from Jesus' final return. Dispensationalism (and its modern futurist kin) does that, not God's truth.


Now, is there a theological question you have relevant to this op or not because this is the Theological Questions board but there is no question asked in this op and the question asked in Post 3 is 1) easily answered and 2) paradoxically lame.


What is the theological question you'd like answered? Be specific.

 

[Hobie]

Nothing in this thread is about me. The op is yours and only you can evidence it, explain it, and prove it. No one else can speak for you.

Nice, godless scripture-abusing ad hominem.

Now can I get some answers to the questions asked, or are we going to have another thread in which you insinuate negatives about me personally and never discuss your own assertions?

• Is there a specific theological question not asked but to be answered with the posting of this op? If not then it is in the wrong board. If so then please post the question to be answered.
• Do you see the paradox presented by Post 3 given modern futurism is not something taught in scripture and not something Christians have historically held to be an orthodox eschatology?

Presumably, neither question is difficult to answer AND the immediate, direct answers to those questions would move the discussion along. Asked once. No answers. Now asked twice.

Would you please lay aside any obstacles preventing you from answering the questions asked and, speaking for yourself in support of your op, would you please answer the questions asked.

No, it has not.

Christians have always believed Jesus will return at the end of the age to gather his harvest, but Christians have not always believed that will occur "soon." What they have always believed is imminence, not soon-ness. Modern futurism is an invention of the 19th century. Dispensationalism and its modern futurist iterations elevates eschatology to a preeminent doctrine when, historically speaking, Christianity has NEVER done that. Modern futurism alone separates the rapture from the final return of Christ. It is NOT a "core belief" of Christianity. It is a core belief of modern futurism, not orthodox Christianity.

And when I ask you very plain, very direct, very simply questions that are, presumably very easily answered from your perspective, I will appreciate it if I receive equally plain, direct, and simple answers so we can move the conversation forward in attempt to achieve some semblance of agreement with the whole of God's word.

• Is there a specific theological question not asked but to be answered with the posting of this op? If not, then this op is in the wrong board. If so, then please post the question to be answered.
• Do you see the paradox presented by Post 3 given modern futurism is not something taught in scripture and not something Christians have historically held to be an orthodox eschatology?

Succinct answers to the questions asked are appreciated. Thx

Christians do follow the truth God gives. Christians follow it imperfectly, but God's truth is followed. This op is a good example of imperfectly following God's truth because scripture does not separate the rapture from Jesus' final return. Dispensationalism (and its modern futurist kin) does that, not God's truth.


Now, is there a theological question you have relevant to this op or not because this is the Theological Questions board but there is no question asked in this op and the question asked in Post 3 is 1) easily answered and 2) paradoxically lame.


What is the theological question you'd like answered? Be specific.

We have to discern from what God gives us...

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Josheb]

We have to discern from what God gives us...

That is true. Part of the problem is.....

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Part 1: Then it is wise when the natural man refrains from misusing scripture to justify doctrinally biased unscriptural positions and, instead, receives the things of the Spirit.

If you do not like it when someone turns the misuse of 1 Cor. 2:14 on you then do not try that nonsense to begin with. The insinuation that others are natural, but you and you alone are spiritual and therefore everyone should believe what you post when it contradicts scripture in a multitude of ways is not just unseemly and natural; it is ungodly. Practice Phil. 2:3 and every single word posted obedient to the command to consider all other more significant that yourself. Obey Ephesians 4:29 and don't post unwholesome insinuations because when that happens it is the one abusing scripture to indict Christians who is acting like the natural man.

This op quotes Romans 1:20 and then appeals to OT verses to inform the NT text. Other NT verses that are relevant and applicable to the Romans 1 text are completely absent. That's a huge problem. There's nothing wrong with the use of the OT but it becomes a problem when that occurs at the expense of the newer revelation being neglected, ignored, or abandoned. That is a dead-sure sign of natural-ness. The discerning Christian picks up on that immediately. The discerning Spirit-filled, Spirit-led Christian avoids that mistake (and does so intentionally). Similarly, because of Romans 13:1, the Spirit-led Christian follows the guidelines and rules of the the environment in which he lives and participates. Although we are not citizens of this world, we live in it and are supposed to be agents of change wherever God has placed us. Being a Christian in America, for example, is different from being a Christian in the UK or Syria. The Christian abides by the laws of those countries. Similarly, but much less demanding, we follow the respective rules of each forum in which we post. Posting in CARM is different than posting in CCAM or Worthy, or the Puritan Board.

Romans 13:1-2
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

Which is why I asked if there was a specific theological question that is unstated in the op but you wish to discuss. It was sort of a test, and the response is commendable because if there hadn't been a question then this op would have served as an example of what the natural man does, an example of fleshly disobedience because it's an op posted in the Theological Questions board without an actual theological question. The answer to my inquiry is,

"Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives[?]"​

.....and then the post immediately segues into the second coming and the Law. In other words, this op turns out to be an eschatological op, not an inquiry of theology in general. The discerning Christian picks up on that immediately. The discerning Christian avoids making every single op about eschatology, especially a very specific sectarian eschatology. Neither does the Spiritual man couch the answer to the question solely in the Law of Moses because the Law of the Spirit has freed us from the Law of Moses in very real and practical ways directly relevant to this inquiry. The discerning Christian avoids writing a veiled op with a hidden agenda that is never disclosed. Credit is deserved for being forthcoming and disclosing the answer when asked, but much of the merit is undermined by the unnecessary imposition of eschatological bias and legalism. The spiritual man avoids asking fair questions prejudicially sectarian. These are all functions of discernment. Scripture directs each of us to look first at ourselves and there is a huge problem in this forum (and most other Christian forums) because modern futurists like yourself constantly try to make everything about eschatology and chronically sneak eschatology into every thread. It is disingenuous. It's also tiresome. It's a very natural-man practice. Seventh Day Adventists, for example, have a difficult time grasping these discernable truths because their entire education in Adventism is by definition skewed by the Adventist reading of scripture. The Adventists is necessarily going to give a much different answer to the question than everyone else because his/her orientation and allegiance is to Adventism, Adventist doctrine, and Adventist practices (including the way Adventists parse the truths God has given). The same could be said to many a Reformed-only poster.

The fact is, if and when modern futurism is used as the sole measure of that question's answer it immediately creates conflict with everyone else. According to Galatians 5, that is a very fleshly thing to do. The fact is modern futurism has a specific definition of what constitutes being a "Christian," and a very specific definition of the "Church," and the latter is definitely not a definition shared by most of Christianity. By making this op about the modern futurist Adventist viewpoint of the second coming you marginalized your own input because Adventism is a minority point of view, the least historical point of view and in some ways, an unorthodox point of view (theologically speaking). The discerning spiritual man, again, will avoid all that.

So.....

Let's regroup. Let's re-approach the inquiry, "Why do so many Christians not follow the truth God gives?" from a whole-scripture position and not solely an eschatological one, not specifically a modern futurist eschatological one, and definitely not a legalistic one. If the interest is solely eschatological then this op belongs in the Eschatology board, not the Theological Questions board. If "following the truth God gives" is code for a modern futurist or an Adventist view of Christians, Christianity, and the Church then, again, this op belongs in the Eschatology board and not the Theological Questions board.


Please read Part 2 before deciding whether or not to post any response to this post.

 

[Josheb]

Part 2:

We have to discern from what God gives us...

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here's my whole-scripture, non-doctrinal, non-eschatological, non-Adventist answer to the question asked: "Why do Christians not follow the truth God gives[?]"


Christians do follow the truth God gives! The question is a bit of a red herring. It's like asking, "Why do Christians beat their children senseless in the closet while wearing rubber gloves on their heads and hula skirt?" We do not beat our children! A whole scripture, non-sectarian answer is necessarily couched in the doctrine of the Church's impeccability AND the reality of sanctification and sanctification's necessity. There'd be no need of any Spirit-driven sanctification after conversion if every Christian was instantly rendered perfect. That would be an extreme form of Perfectionism that is 1) rejected by scripture both in word and precedent, and 2) also rejected historically by the Church as heresy. The Spirit-filled, Spirit-led spiritual man (or woman) knows s/he and everyone else is imperfect and therefore will disobey the truth God gives and will alternately resist and embrace it, allowing the Spirit to continue its work to cleanse, purify, sanctify him or her. The Christian life is very much one in which disobedience is trained, learned, and increasingly practiced. The conflict is paradoxical evidence of the Spirit's work because the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirt and thinks them foolish. He does not have any conflict. He (or she) continues in sin unabated, unconvicted, unresponsive, and unchanged. That man is not really a Christian. Again, the spiritual man discerns this immediately and rejects those teachers who teach a different hamartiology and a different ecclesiology.

Therefore, an accurate re-wording of the original question might be, "Why are there so many non-Christians in Church congregations?" or maybe even, "Why do Christians permit non-Chris in the congregation, do little about it and still call them Christians as if the chronically disobedient natural man is comparable to the Spirit-filled spiritual man who is constantly being cleaned up by God in a manner that his/her sanctification is visible?"

The angel is in the details .

Of course, a Dispensationalist-only orientation will have a different take on all of that because one of the fundamental differences between modern futurism and all the rest of Christendom is that modern futurism is built on the premise the Church is corrupt, and only modern futurists are the true Church. The natural man does not see the fallacious appeal to purity in that position. The spiritual man instantly recognizes the appeal to a logical fallacy and rejects that appeal. He necessarily understands God's Spirit does not argue fallacy and He does not direct His people to do so, either.

When the question is considered in light of whole scripture the reality the Church is a messy place and episodes of not following God's truth are to be expected..... and then addressed. Most Christians do follow the truth God gives but they follow it imperfectly because they are imperfect people living in corruptible mortal bodies of sinfully adulterated flesh. We have been washed clean and have everything we need to live a godly life but, according to 2 Peter 1:3-11, we must believe that truth and add to that reality. Not a single word of that would be necessary if the Christian always followed the truth God gives. If the Christian always followed the truth God gives there'd be no need for confession, repentance, forgiveness or any kind of reconciliation among Christians. There'd be no need for supplicative prayer. These are fundamental and necessary aspects of the Christian's spiritual life.

All of the above is a function of discernment, and discernment that the natural man thinks is foolish and does not understand.


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