Is repentance needed for salvation?

[Mr GLee]

However, in terms of salvation, there was no "first love" of God prior to salvation to return to.
We were dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1), enemies of God (Ro 5:10).

Amen! Two turnings He turn us so we can have the power to turn to Him

 

[makesends]

Salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9.)
Complete. It includes faith, repentance, conversion, fruit, gifts, and everything that accompanies salvation of the LORD.
The Holy Spirit is all those things. He is everything with regard to salvation. It cannot be divided or bifurcated or separated for in Eternity He is all those things. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.
Men are dead in trespasses and sins. Like Lazarus he could not exhibit faith, repent, or anything else as a dead man. Completely passive until the command "Lazarus, Come Forth!"
He was dead before Christ as we are all dead before God until the Holy Spirit invades, immerses, occupies our lives by touching us and quickens us. In that quickening He brings everything which accompanies salvation.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Jn 1:3–5.

Including the new man created by Him:

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:24.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [Gr. "creation"]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:16–17.

From death to life. From nothing to everything.
Nothing to the cross I bring, surely to the cross I cling.
'Nuff said.

Is that intended in opposition to something @Eleanor said or implied, or is it intended to supplement what she said? I didn't read anything she said to be in disagreement with what you said.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

This verse shuts down anyone who claims repentance is not needed for salvation. And it shuts up anyone who says this is a "race" thing and that Jews are special in this regard.

[Act 11:18 LSB] 18 And when they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance [that leads] to life."

 

[brightfame52]

@Soyeong

I showed that repentance is intrinsically part of what the gift of salvation is, not something that accompanies it.

I see no difference here, you just want to be argumentative.

so we can't be saved from not doing them while refusing to participate in doing them. While there are many verses that speak against earning our salvation as the result of our works, which is works salvation, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 and Hebrews 5:9 that show that our salvation nevertheless still requires us to choose do works through faith, which is salvation through faith.

Apostacy. Theres no requirements to be met in any part of Salvation, and those verse dont support such a apostate notion.

 

[brightfame52]

God is VERY ethnic. God chose a family in which to reveal Himself and His salvation.
Over all the families of earth He chose Eber, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Reuben, Simeon, Judah, etc., and the covenant of Abraham contained natural and spiritual blessings to him and His seed.
Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles nor any seed of Gentiles.
The Church Christ built was founded with the salvation of 3000 Jews and Christ added to His Church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2:47.) Taking 3000 in one day as a median number by weeks end 21,000 Jews would be born again and for the next four decades until the destruction of the Jewish Temple everything that happened in Israel was the result of Covenant promises God made with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. When Christ returns, He comes to fight alongside Israel against ALL NATIONS - Gentile Christians included - who fight against Israel for His name's sake.
At the Marriage Supper Israel the Bride and Church of God is there by Covenant.
Gentiles are there by invitation (Matt. 22.)
Isn't that wonderful!
Can I get a Praise God and Amen!

Race Salvation, thats an attack on Grace, Apostacy

 

[Mercy_Shown]

God is VERY ethnic. God chose a family in which to reveal Himself and His salvation.
Over all the families of earth He chose Eber, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Reuben, Simeon, Judah, etc., and the covenant of Abraham contained natural and spiritual blessings to him and His seed.
Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles nor any seed of Gentiles.
The Church Christ built was founded with the salvation of 3000 Jews and Christ added to His Church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2:47.) Taking 3000 in one day as a median number by weeks end 21,000 Jews would be born again and for the next four decades until the destruction of the Jewish Temple everything that happened in Israel was the result of Covenant promises God made with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. When Christ returns, He comes to fight alongside Israel against ALL NATIONS - Gentile Christians included - who fight against Israel for His name's sake.
At the Marriage Supper Israel the Bride and Church of God is there by Covenant.
Gentiles are there by invitation (Matt. 22.)
Isn't that wonderful!
Can I get a Praise God and Amen!

All believers are Israel. There is no longer a wall of separation.

 

[Eleanor]

All believers are Israel. There is no longer a wall of separation.

All believers are the body of Christ, the church, the one people of God of both the OT and the NT saints (Heb 12:22-23).

 

[Mercy_Shown]

R

All believers are the body of Christ, the church, the one people of God of both the OT and the NT saints (Heb 12:22-23).

Right, as Paul teaches, we were grafted in. In Galatians 3:7, Paul, writing to Gentiles, says, “Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham” (ESV). Here Paul advances the idea of a spiritual family in contrast to a physical family—a family sharing faith rather than a bloodline.

 

[brightfame52]

All believers are the body of Christ, the church, the one people of God of both the OT and the NT saints (Heb 12:22-23).

And that's all Israel that God Promised to Save in the Lord Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

 

[Eleanor]

And that's all Israel that God Promised to Save in the Lord Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Keeping in mind that "not all Israel is Israel."

The true Israel believes in its Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.
Those who don't are not God's Israel, they are rejectors of God because they reject his Son, their Messiah (Lk 10:16).

 

[jeremiah1five]

We're in the NT now where salvation has a specific meaning; i.e., saved from the wrath of God on one's sin (Ro 5:9) by faith in and trust on the atoning work of Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9) for the remission of that sin and right standing (not guilty, reconciled) with God (Eph 2:16).

Salvation (and all its parts) is still from the Lord.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes it is necessary for conversion, and yes it is the work of God.



Man is active in conversion, that is the regenerate man, he is active even though hes being acted upon by God. Its like when Paul said Phil 2:12-13

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
To say the renewed man isnt active in conversion lacks understanding. God causes him to be active Ezk 36:27
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Yes, God is the cause of salvation in all its parts.

Saul is writing to Jewish Christians at Philippi who are already saved.

And Ezekiel:

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze. 36:25–27.

Remember Lucifer's 5 "I wills"? (I will ascend into heaven, I will sit upon..."?)
God has 7 "I wills."

Not only is God the first cause in salvation and brings all that accompanies it, He is also directly involved in keeping a person saved and from falling. Totally. Finally. Eternally.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude vs. 24.

If God does nothing men die in sin and eternally separated from Him.
Men (and women) are dead before Him. Even physically "alive" men are dead before Him.
What did Jesus say to "alive" dead people?

10 The thief [sin] cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Jn 10:10.

And again, speaking to "alive" dead people:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jn 5:24.

Mankind has been infused with a false notion and belief since creation that we are alive, but we are not. We are merely animated. What's the term? "Dead man walking"?
God is alive. He defines life and living. He is the standard by which life and living is not only defined but judged against.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Jn 1:4.

It doesn't say, "and the life was the life of men."

God is life. If our present existence is life, why is it necessary for God to take life from us? Why and how does sin kill life, especially if God breathed His life in man's nostrils?
Life cannot kill life. The Father cannot kill the Son. There is no such thing as deicide. Logos did not die on the cross. One cannot kill God. Jesus the man died on the cross. Sin cannot kill God, but it can kill man. It kills man because man is only animated. It mars and eventually destroys the animation God breathed into the nostrils of man. Since God is life and sin cannot kill God who is life, and if one thinks man when created became alive as God is alive how can sin kill the Deific Nature of life of God in man if indeed God breathed into man's nostrils His very own Deific life-nature? This ties in with my belief that God created man sinful.

Now, having said all that, salvation is the saving of man. If God breathed into the nostrils of man His very own Nature of His very own life, then sin could not kill man and man would not die. But man does die. Sin cannot kill God. Sin cannot kill any aspect of Deity. Sin cannot kill life, especially God's life. Man possessed nothing redeemable. Nothing. Not even faith. It was Christ's Faith that God honored and by which we are saved. God accepteth no man’s person (Gal. 2:6.)

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, Gal. 2:16.

But it is the Faith of Christ He had towards His Father and THEN in salvation is imparted to us that we might believe. Before that, we are as Lazarus, dead to God and dead without life.

We might be able to attempt to understand the 'ordo salutis' or the order of salvation, but every aspect of salvation is and comes from God. Man possessed none of what God brings to the table in the salvation of man. The only 'thing' needed for salvation is God. Repentance comes with salvation. Conversion comes with salvation. Justification comes with salvation. Righteousness comes with salvation. When God saves (salvation) a person everything comes from God towards that person's redemption. All these add-ons that this or that is NEEDED before we are salved comes from a man-centered theology, that I participated in my salvation, or God could not save me unless I allow it. No. God is not making things up as He goes along. He is actively and directly involved and it the first cause in man's salvation. It is a plan He initiated in Himself BEFORE He created heaven, earth and man. He wrote names in a book of life of the lamb before He created anything. All He is doing is following His pre-creation plan and saving individuals at their appointed time. Nothing is needed in order to be saved.
Only God. Salvation - and all its parts - is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Race Salvation, thats an attack on Grace, Apostacy

There are only two races in existence: covenant Jew and non-covenant Gentile.
God is the one that called out ONE family among the rest. He called Hebrews. Hebrews became Jews in general.

Concerning Israel:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev. 5:8–10.

When one or millions realize they are the kindred, tongue, people, and nation whom God did not redeem and they see a people God did call out of these groups, they're going to hate God and His Chosen people to whom He chose to reveal His Son and redeem. Since they cannot touch God they will hate and attack His people whom they can touch.


Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,
And thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
And the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and ethe women ravished;
And half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
And the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations,
As when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
Which is before Jerusalem on the east,
And the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
Zec 14:1–4.

And I'm pretty sure Gentile Christians will be among those attacking Israel in that day, especially after God turns His full attention back on Israel, removes their blindness and incredible things start happening in Israel and the motivation of Gentile Christians turning on Israel - as we see it happening in the world's present war between Israel and Hamas - Gentile Christians will not take lightly God using them to make His Bride and Church Israel jealous.
No one likes to be used. Gentile Christian or otherwise.
And the other rub will be when God's two witnesses arrive and begin their ministry to Israel and against the non-covenant world, the witnesses will correct a great many doctrinal errors of the past 2000 years and restore true, Biblical Christianity back to Israel on which the New Covenant was first founded in Acts 2 with 3000 Jews being born again and the Lord adding to His Church (of Jews) daily such as should be saved. I say it again, if God saved 3000 Jews on the Day of Pentecost and added to His Church daily, then by weeks end the Lord's true Church would have at least 21,000 Jews born=again and filled with the Holy Spirit. Add to that four weeks in a month, twelve months in a year, ten years in a decade, and four decades from Pentecost to when the Jewish Temple was destroyed and the "ism" of the New Covenant Judaism effectively ended, Jews went to the backseat, and God began to bring in uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles to salvation and without a covenant.

The Times of the Gentiles which began around the time of the destruction of the Jewish Temple will itself end with the destruction of the Gentile nations in which Gentile Christians reside. It will not be pretty. It will be very, very, ugly.

Christ, speaking to covenant Israel says:

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. Mt 24:9.

When the dust clears people will realized this one truth:

Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss.

 

[jeremiah1five]

All believers are Israel. There is no longer a wall of separation.

Disagree.
There is no evidence in the Law, Psalms, or Prophets of God making covenant with Gentiles or the seed of any Gentile.
In the three major Jewish Covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New) there is no mention of Gentiles in these covenants and to try to add them after each covenant is closed and ONLY with the House of Israel is to elbow ones way into these Jewish Covenants and is tantamount to inheritance theft.
Thou shalt not steal.
Oh, but Gentiles were NEVER under the Law, weren't they.
God is saving hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles without a covenant.
His prerogative.
Israel is betrothed to God. Israel is the Church of God. They were known as 4-million strong "Great Congregation" in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle when God delivered the Hebrews out of Egypt.
Nothing's changed.

 

[brightfame52]

DP sorry

 

[brightfame52]

There are only two races in existence: covenant Jew and non-covenant Gentile.
God is the one that called out ONE family among the rest. He called Hebrews. Hebrews became Jews in general.

Concerning Israel:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev. 5:8–10.

When one or millions realize they are the kindred, tongue, people, and nation whom God did not redeem and they see a people God did call out of these groups, they're going to hate God and His Chosen people to whom He chose to reveal His Son and redeem. Since they cannot touch God they will hate and attack His people whom they can touch.


Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,
And thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
And the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and ethe women ravished;
And half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
And the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations,
As when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
Which is before Jerusalem on the east,
And the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
Zec 14:1–4.

And I'm pretty sure Gentile Christians will be among those attacking Israel in that day, especially after God turns His full attention back on Israel, removes their blindness and incredible things start happening in Israel and the motivation of Gentile Christians turning on Israel - as we see it happening in the world's present war between Israel and Hamas - Gentile Christians will not take lightly God using them to make His Bride and Church Israel jealous.
No one likes to be used. Gentile Christian or otherwise.
And the other rub will be when God's two witnesses arrive and begin their ministry to Israel and against the non-covenant world, the witnesses will correct a great many doctrinal errors of the past 2000 years and restore true, Biblical Christianity back to Israel on which the New Covenant was first founded in Acts 2 with 3000 Jews being born again and the Lord adding to His Church (of Jews) daily such as should be saved. I say it again, if God saved 3000 Jews on the Day of Pentecost and added to His Church daily, then by weeks end the Lord's true Church would have at least 21,000 Jews born=again and filled with the Holy Spirit. Add to that four weeks in a month, twelve months in a year, ten years in a decade, and four decades from Pentecost to when the Jewish Temple was destroyed and the "ism" of the New Covenant Judaism effectively ended, Jews went to the backseat, and God began to bring in uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles to salvation and without a covenant.

The Times of the Gentiles which began around the time of the destruction of the Jewish Temple will itself end with the destruction of the Gentile nations in which Gentile Christians reside. It will not be pretty. It will be very, very, ugly.

Christ, speaking to covenant Israel says:

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. Mt 24:9.

When the dust clears people will realized this one truth:

Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss.

Ethnicity Salvation, Apostacy, Salvation based on race

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, God is the cause of salvation in all its parts.

Saul is writing to Jewish Christians at Philippi who are already saved.

And Ezekiel:

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze. 36:25–27.

Remember Lucifer's 5 "I wills"? (I will ascend into heaven, I will sit upon..."?)
God has 7 "I wills."

Not only is God the first cause in salvation and brings all that accompanies it, He is also directly involved in keeping a person saved and from falling. Totally. Finally. Eternally.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude vs. 24.

If God does nothing men die in sin and eternally separated from Him.
Men (and women) are dead before Him. Even physically "alive" men are dead before Him.
What did Jesus say to "alive" dead people?

10 The thief [sin] cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Jn 10:10.

And again, speaking to "alive" dead people:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jn 5:24.

Mankind has been infused with a false notion and belief since creation that we are alive, but we are not. We are merely animated. What's the term? "Dead man walking"?
God is alive. He defines life and living. He is the standard by which life and living is not only defined but judged against.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Jn 1:4.

It doesn't say, "and the life was the life of men."

God is life. If our present existence is life, why is it necessary for God to take life from us? Why and how does sin kill life, especially if God breathed His life in man's nostrils?
Life cannot kill life. The Father cannot kill the Son. There is no such thing as deicide. Logos did not die on the cross. One cannot kill God. Jesus the man died on the cross. Sin cannot kill God, but it can kill man. It kills man because man is only animated. It mars and eventually destroys the animation God breathed into the nostrils of man. Since God is life and sin cannot kill God who is life, and if one thinks man when created became alive as God is alive how can sin kill the Deific Nature of life of God in man if indeed God breathed into man's nostrils His very own Deific life-nature? This ties in with my belief that God created man sinful.

Now, having said all that, salvation is the saving of man. If God breathed into the nostrils of man His very own Nature of His very own life, then sin could not kill man and man would not die. But man does die. Sin cannot kill God. Sin cannot kill any aspect of Deity. Sin cannot kill life, especially God's life. Man possessed nothing redeemable. Nothing. Not even faith. It was Christ's Faith that God honored and by which we are saved. God accepteth no man’s person (Gal. 2:6.)

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, Gal. 2:16.

But it is the Faith of Christ He had towards His Father and THEN in salvation is imparted to us that we might believe. Before that, we are as Lazarus, dead to God and dead without life.

We might be able to attempt to understand the 'ordo salutis' or the order of salvation, but every aspect of salvation is and comes from God. Man possessed none of what God brings to the table in the salvation of man. The only 'thing' needed for salvation is God. Repentance comes with salvation. Conversion comes with salvation. Justification comes with salvation. Righteousness comes with salvation. When God saves (salvation) a person everything comes from God towards that person's redemption. All these add-ons that this or that is NEEDED before we are salved comes from a man-centered theology, that I participated in my salvation, or God could not save me unless I allow it. No. God is not making things up as He goes along. He is actively and directly involved and it the first cause in man's salvation. It is a plan He initiated in Himself BEFORE He created heaven, earth and man. He wrote names in a book of life of the lamb before He created anything. All He is doing is following His pre-creation plan and saving individuals at their appointed time. Nothing is needed in order to be saved.
Only God. Salvation - and all its parts - is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9.)

Race Salvation.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Disagree.
There is no evidence in the Law, Psalms, or Prophets of God making covenant with Gentiles or the seed of any Gentile.
In the three major Jewish Covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New) there is no mention of Gentiles in these covenants and to try to add them after each covenant is closed and ONLY with the House of Israel is to elbow ones way into these Jewish Covenants and is tantamount to inheritance theft.
Thou shalt not steal.
Oh, but Gentiles were NEVER under the Law, weren't they.
God is saving hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles without a covenant.
His prerogative.
Israel is betrothed to God. Israel is the Church of God. They were known as 4-million strong "Great Congregation" in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle when God delivered the Hebrews out of Egypt.
Nothing's changed.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Eleanor]

Salvation (and all its parts) is still from the Lord.

Indeed, and which salvation has a very specific meaning in the NT; i.e., from condemnation on one's sin at the final judgment, through
faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of that sin and right standing (not guilty, reconciled) with God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Indeed, and which salvation has a very specific meaning in the NT; i.e., from condemnation on one's sin at the final judgment, through
faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of that sin and right standing (not guilty, reconciled) with God.

I can’t praise God enough for this.