Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Only 2 possibilities? Maybe if man is the center of importance.

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

The highest good in reality is God's glory. Like Paul asks, what if God showing another side of Himself by damning those people brings God glory? Carnal minds will be at enmity against that.

don't forget though, he endures to those vessels of wrath with much longsuffering..

Look at his dealings with Israel. How many warning did he give before he said he is done.. and they were punished

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

When did I say God gives people dead faith. Dead faith is a human faith that is not genuine.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.

Simon believed and was baptized. Just a little later Peter tells him that his heart is not right in the sight of God.

That is a Spiritless dead faith.

Amen

Dead faith is faith is self. not God

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

James says if you have broken even the teeniest of God's commandment, you are guilty of breaking them all.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

So we are all murderers, adulterers, liars, thief's and so forth.

Yes,

I like pauls words

1 cor 6: 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

I love the end. It does not stay they cleaned themselves up. It does not say they even stopped their sins. it says they were washed, They were sanctified, They were justified (declared righteous) by the spirit of our God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You might call me frustrated. I've always loved the Bible but have spent decades with Arminians who seem to avoid the topic of hell.

wow.. This is a first. I never even heard them do this.. Something to ponder

Then again, A legalist usually does not like to discuss hell. Because deep down. they are not secure in Christ. they are basing their eternity on their works..

Its also why they will act out and attack a person who preaches grace (like the Pharisees did Jesus) because a grace believer and Christ forces them to admit they are not good enough

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, the way I interpret those verses I don't see that we are currently in the situation spoken of. For example Rev.22:4 says there will be no more death which is not the current situation. Isaiah 65:17 speaks of a new heaven and earth which I see as future.

Maybe you define "kingdom" differently than I. I think of Kingdom as heavenly kingdom.

I think there can be confusion.

we are in the kingdom of God..

But there is a future kingdom coming.

Much like the prophets. They spoke of Jesus. But the mystery is he would come 2 times. not once..

 

[Hazelelponi]

The jews prety much did the same. its sad we see a repeat in NT times of things we say in OT times

its almost like Satan found a weak spot.. and takes advantage of it (religion)

In the 2 chapter of James, speaking to the sin he saw believers engaging in within the church meetings he cautioned them not to sin by showing favoritism to the wealthy over those who are poor in seating arrangements and attention given when they come to the church meetings.

James 1:27, states, "Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world".

Religion is how we follow our Lord and Savior, and Satan hates our religion and our Lord so greatly so he lies in wait hoping to snatch the seed. (Matthew 13)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, when using the term "kingdom of God" one should clarify as it can have various meanings

• Psalm 103:19 (ESV) “The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.”
• Daniel 2:44 (ESV) “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed...”
• Mark 1:14-15 (ESV) “Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.’”
• John 3:3 “Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
• Millennial kingdom - “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit... He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan... and bound him for a thousand years...
  ...They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
  
  
  

we can see in matt 24 also. The disciples asked about 3 events

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

these things being no stone left on another fulfilled in 70AD

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There are two kingdoms: the kingdom of darkness and the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God rules over all, but not everyone is in it.

yes.

There is a heavenly kingdom. of which we all are part of.

but there will also be an earthly kingdom.. Which most likely non of us will be here at that time.. (although I would love to be here at that time )

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Or there is something else we don't see yet.

I think this is it. Although I am sure many will disagree of what this is

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You have the GIFT of encouragement! Many thanks.

Yes. He is very blessed in this gift!!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Our churches may be friendlier in the south. I remember going to a Missionary(denomination) Church here in the midwest; there were no greeters and not one person said "Hi." It was not a mega church. I understand cultural differences a little, but suggest that Christians have discussions about greeing visitors or inviting new families to dinner. Cults like to "love bomb" newcomers.

sadly, this is so true.

I look at the churches of acts. And I see not much that represents modern churches.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

My church, a Reformed Baptist, has greeters that hug everybody. I'm just glad they don't also welcome them officially from the pulpit, make them stand up and be acknowledged. I also don't like a designated 3 minute fellowship time to greet one another. Makes me feel like it's false. (But then, I also hate having the staff at a restaurant sing happy birthday to someone they don't even know—me.)

100% I do not like this either.

Some of the churches I went to. You would shake everyone's hands on Sunday, then not see them again until Sunday..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

In the 2 chapter of James, speaking to the sin he saw believers engaging in within the church meetings he cautioned them not to sin by showing favoritism to the wealthy over those who are poor in seating arrangements and attention given when they come to the church meetings.

James 1:27, states, "Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world".

Religion is how we follow our Lord and Savior, and Satan hates our religion and our Lord so greatly so he lies in wait hoping to snatch the seed. (Matthew 13)

Undefiled religion. AMEN

When we hear the word religion today. It speaks of mans efforts. hey God look at me, Look how great I am.. etc etc.

when I say or see religion, this is what comes to mind.. Like the Catholics and all their sacraments, The jews and all their laws. The religious churches with all their rules, in fact most religion on earth is based on this religion..

 

[Hazelelponi]

Undefiled religion. AMEN

When we hear the word religion today. It speaks of mans efforts

Well it's not devoid of effort, we engage in it to bring Glory to our Lord and Savior., as well as be in right standing and with the best understanding before God.

when I say or see religion, this is what comes to mind.. Like the Catholics and all their sacraments, The jews and all their laws. The religious churches with all their rules, in fact most religion on earth is based on this religion..

Laws and rules exist, whether we like them or not.

Scripture tells us how to order our churches, how and when and why to baptize, how to arrange our marriges, and so very much more. .

It's only natural for there to be slight variance between how we might view some things, it's when the differences are chasmic and the those differences are not in accordance with Scriptural teachings that there's a problem.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well it's not devoid of effort, we engage in it to bring Glory to our Lord and Savior., as well as be in right standing and with the best understanding before God.

As long as it is to bring God glory.

In alot of cases. it is to bring self glroy

Laws and rules exist, whether we like them or not.

If we are using them to make ourself right with God. We call this in my circle. religion or legalism.

its different that working out of gratitude and love.

I again like how paul puts it

Gal 5: 22 ;But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit

Scripture tells us how to order our churches, how and when and why to baptize, how to arrange our marriges, and so very much more. .

You missing the point of what I am saying.

It's only natural for there to be slight variance between how we might view some things, it's when the differences are chasmic and the those differences are not in accordance with Scriptural teachings that there's a problem.

once again, Legalism, or as many call it religion. Is people saying God look at me.

I was baptized. but not to glory God. but to get saved
I went to confession. But not to glorify God. but to get forgiven and saved
I gave money, But not to glorify God but to glorify myself. and maybe even to hope god will apply it to my sin debt.
I keep the law. But not to glorify God but I am hoping I can be good enough to get to heaven.

Most major religions, sadly including many Christian churches, teach this form of religion.

There is human religion.

And their is pure and undefiled religion.

Most people when we discuss religion are discussin gthe first type.

 

[fastfredy0]

But when it comes to love he is selective?

this is what it appears your saying

Yes, God's love is selective and can be measured.

First a definition from ChatGPT
Agape love, often described as selfless and unconditional, is difficult to quantify precisely as it's primarily a concept rooted in faith and spirituality. However, it can be measured through actions and behaviors that demonstrate care, empathy, and a willingness to sacrifice for the well-being of others.
... so those going to heaven are LOVED GREATLY and those going to hell are not LOVED

John 6 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

so in total.

1. All who see and believe, it is his will that they will have everlasting life. and he will raise him up on the last day
2. It is his will. that he should not lose any, but that he should give them life (eternal life) and again, they will be raised.

they both go together.

God did not not love those who will reject him, he just will not give them life. (john 3, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already)

All true statements but the crux of the matter you have ignored.
Yes, all who believe will have eternal life but the question is: What is the cause of their belief. And the answer to that question is in
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

So their salvific belief is caused by God and God causes this belief in a minority of people who God determined to love.

 

[makesends]

100% I do not like this either.

Some of the churches I went to. You would shake everyone's hands on Sunday, then not see them again until Sunday..

Reminds me of an old "Bible Church" I went to in South Carolina, prayer meetings, people crying out to the Lord on behalf of our poor sister Janelle, but next Wednesday nobody even wondered how things had gone for her.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, God's love is selective and can be measured.

I cant agree here.

God loved the world. as much as he has to judge the world.

Granted. we limit how much God can pour on us. and we all deserve judgment.

First a definition from ChatGPT
Agape love, often described as selfless and unconditional, is difficult to quantify precisely as it's primarily a concept rooted in faith and spirituality. However, it can be measured through actions and behaviors that demonstrate care, empathy, and a willingness to sacrifice for the well-being of others.
... so those going to heaven are LOVED GREATLY and those going to hell are not LOVED

UNLESS God died for them also..

All true statements but the crux of the matter you have ignored.
Yes, all who believe will have eternal life but the question is: What is the cause of their belief. And the answer to that question is in
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

So their salvific belief is caused by God and God causes this belief in a minority of people who God determined to love.

You answered your own question with the verse you posted. I posted this ear;lier. I will repost it

But as many as have RECIEVED HIM to THEM he gave the POWER (Gk exousian - the authority, the power, the right, jurisdiction, strength) to become sons of God, to those who believe in his name

If you look in the Greek. it appears it is saying he gives us the right to save ourselves, to make ourselves children of God. but we both know that is not true.

Because of the next verse

Who were born, not of blood (it is not passed down from father to child) nor of the will of the flesh (I can not will myself saved) nor of the will of man (Another loved one my not will me saved) but of God

The power (the authority, the right, the jurisdiction, the strength) is Christ. He is our power. once we receive him in faith.

if the power is not received it will not be given

 

[Rescued One]

Father, I pray you touch @Rescued One and give her peace and comfort in your love, I pray this in Jesus Name, Amen.


Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me"

This is very very specific.

Something else Jesus said was that we have to be willing to hate mother, father, daughter, son, etc for His sake. We always see this as something emotional, but it's not, it's positional where God is our first and foremost care and concern, even if that means our positional relationship with them changes drastically.

Hate and love with God can be seen not as emotional states, but as positional, covenantal states. When we are inside the covenant relationship we are said to be loved by God, tended, cared for etc, and outside the covenant relationship with God they are said to be hated by God. This idea of love and hate is a position, a state of being inside or outside of God's covenantal relationship with His people.

We who are within God's covenantal relationship and are called His people want everyone we love to know God the way we know have come to know God here inside this relationship with Him but it's not likely to occur that everyone we love will be joining us.

In fact, we might not even know anyone else inside the covenant from our lives - and we have to be willing, not just able but willingly giving our loved ones into hands far more capable than we - those of God.

No matter how we slice it, whether we decide ohhhh it's all free will and God's this emotional creature that created us to worship his own image - or whether we decide that God did in fact declare the ends from the beginnings as the Alpha and the Omega and everything in between including ways and means and even the who without regard to person - we have to decide whether we are going to be willing to hate our own people, even those we love the most, to know Him more deeply, to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

And for those loved ones living and dead, that can mean not being in the same covenantal position as them before God for all eternity.

We really don't have a choice honestly but to trust God, as a God who is God will do God things and we can't control a God, but we do have a decision on whether we think Gods special revelation of Himself is an entity we want to be in a relationship with.

As we learn and study and grow and trust God, I do believe we see an utterly amazing God, one I am certain is of exceedingly great worth.

So... Do you give your loved ones into the hand of a Holy God and worship Him for His Being knowing that both His Justice and His Mercy brings Him Glory (shows His Holiness), or do you walk away because you can't have a God "that would" whatever you declare He "should not" do, when perhaps you're just not fully grasping everything of His Nature yet? (As if we ever could!).

Do you say to God I will give you everything of me because you alone are worthy?

We are being called to love one thing, that is God, first and foremost above every other thing. It necessarily involves hating all that God does not love, positionally.

Abraham said yes. Paul said yes. Jesus Christ said yes.

We have our own yes or no to give in response to our own call. Will we follow Jesus, or no.

I will never turn my back on God. NEVER.

 

[Rescued One]

Reminds me of an old "Bible Church" I went to in South Carolina, prayer meetings, people crying out to the Lord on behalf of our poor sister Janelle, but next Wednesday nobody even wondered how things had gone for her.

Thank you.