Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Reminds me of an old "Bible Church" I went to in South Carolina, prayer meetings, people crying out to the Lord on behalf of our poor sister Janelle, but next Wednesday nobody even wondered how things had gone for her.

yeah.

And only a few select would even come wed nights.. Its like we would have 300 on Sunday, and only 30 on wed.

 

[makesends]

I guess I just keep struggling over the lost who weren't murderers or physically abusive. But I like John 6:39.

were they sinless though

—And there is the point! We are no more than what God intended for us, and what he sees.

Also, it is worth considering that we do not know the depths of God's mercy. It is WE who draw the lines on the surface, not knowing even what happened in the heart at the last moment, nor even before the end.
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And as God is the only source of what is truly good, though this I'm saying now is speculation, it's worth considering: There is nothing endemic to anybody except what God has done to/in them; we like to say that the person we now see IS that person, but when God withdraws all his virtues and truth from them, what is left, but a husk—a wraith? CS Lewis says there are no "ordinary people", there is no "mere mortal". "the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare."

If that be true, then it may be possible that knowing Christ, seeing God as he is and knowing him as we are known, may even be, in every specific that was truly loved or good in that person, we will see in Christ. —But again, if that comforts, good, but do not take that for Doctrine. It is hardly even cogent speculation—just thoughts.

 

[Rescued One]

Yes,

I like pauls words

1 cor 6: 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

I love the end. It does not stay they cleaned themselves up. It does not say they even stopped their sins. it says they were washed, They were sanctified, They were justified (declared righteous) by the spirit of our God.

But they didn't continue in the old ways; they were given new natures.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I will never turn my back on God. NEVER.

Be careful. Peter said he would never deny, never, then did it three times

I said I would never walk away. then walked away for 5 years (i never denied God, but became a prodigal child)

Luckily as happened before. God brought me to me knees. He left the flock.. We can never truly leave God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

—And there is the point! We are no more than what God intended for us, and what he sees.

Also, it is worth considering that we do not know the depths of God's mercy. It is WE who draw the lines on the surface, not knowing even what happened in the heart at the last moment, nor even before the end.
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that's why even the purest of Godly men in the word fell on their face for even an Angel.. I think of one, saying he was a man of unclean lips.. We will see ourselves one day as we are

in the same way we will see ourselves as God sees us,. beloved and forgiven

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

But they didn't continue in the old ways; they were given new natures.

some of them did not. Thats why Paul called them babes. Alot in the Corinthian church struggled with sexual sin,. One extreme person bragged about having sex with his fathers wife.. Thats why paul had to discipline them so much, and talk to them as babes.

Not everyone stops all sin the moment they are saved.. We all have to grow. and some deep seeded sins may be harder to break (but not impossible.

 

[makesends]

or maybe God does not want to force people to receive him. He wants to show his love no matter what people do.

He will be glorified when he casts out those who reject him, and glorified when he brings in those who receive him

Is He allowed to CAUSE people to receive him? Would that be unloving, seeing as how they are unable to truly want him on their own?

 

[makesends]

some of them did not. Thats why Paul called them babes. Alot in the Corinthian church struggled with sexual sin,. One extreme person bragged about having sex with his fathers wife.. Thats why paul had to discipline them so much, and talk to them as babes.

Not everyone stops all sin the moment they are saved.. We all have to grow. and some deep seeded sins may be harder to break (but not impossible.

Nobody stops all sin the moment they are saved.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nobody stops all sin the moment they are saved.

Because nobody stops all sin.

Post in thread 'Is Total Victory over Sin Possible?'

Apr 10, 2025

I don't think I'm at 100% either, but I believe with God's help, growing towards it is possible.

Holiness - not sinlessness is what we seek after as we trust in Christ for our salvation and our sanctification and our ultimate glorification. The victory over sin is in Christ. Not in men.

But in Christ we can overcome sin, and grow in Holiness.

Welcome to the forum.

• Hazelelponi

• 

^^^ total victory over sin thread.. fun for further debating on that topic.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Nobody stops all sin the moment they are saved.

yes. we start as babes in Christ. even needing milk. and not meet for food..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Because nobody stops all sin.

even truer yet?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us 1 John 1: 8

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Is He allowed to CAUSE people to receive him?

Why would he CAUSE or FORCE people to believe him? (everyime I see the word cause, that is what comes to my mind,

Would that be unloving, seeing as how they are unable to truly want him on their own?

No. Because he brings them to himself and shows himself to them.

Its up to them to say yes Lord. I want your gift. or no lord. I continue to reject you

again, 1 John 1. The power given to us is of Christ. But it is given to those who believe

God will not force you to believe

 

[Hazelelponi]

Why would he CAUSE or FORCE people to believe him? (everyime I see the word cause, that is what comes to my mind,

Try a dictionary then.

If I teach a child obedience and then ask that child to go and wash their hands before dinner I was the cause of them washing their hands

When a man rapes a woman he has "forced' himself upon her.

You've turned God into a rapist not a cause.

 

[fastfredy0]

I cant agree here.

God loved the world. as much as he has to judge the world.

Granted. we limit how much God can pour on us. and we all deserve judgment.

Basically you're saying God is our puppet ... if we are good then He's obligated to love/favor us and we are bad then God must punish us. This contradicts God's independence. When it comes to rewards and punishment, men are the cause and God is obligated to respond to our actions.

Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? To this your answer seems to be .... "we limit how much God can pour on us" which contradicts the verse

UNLESS God died for them also..

Why would God die in vain for those going to hell? That's what your saying if you state God died for everyone without exception.
Isaiah 55:11:
"So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but it will accomplish what I desire, and it will prosper in my purpose." ..... what you seems to say is that God will accomplish His desire and His desire it to accomplish our desires when it comes to our salvation. When it comes to salvation it would seem that man rather than God is almighty as man determines God's action.
Proverbs 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose that will prevail.

But as many as have RECIEVED HIM to THEM he gave the POWER (Gk exousian - the authority, the power, the right, jurisdiction, strength) to become sons of God, to those who believe in his name

Again, you don't address the REASON they believed. I gave you the answer in John 1:12-13

 

[David1701]

yes.

There is a heavenly kingdom. of which we all are part of.

but there will also be an earthly kingdom.. Which most likely non of us will be here at that time.. (although I would love to be here at that time )

There will certainly be a new heavens and a new earth. Since we will be like the angels, I would think that we'll be able to come and go, as they can.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Try a dictionary then.

If I teach a child obedience and then ask that child to go and wash their hands before dinner I was the cause of them washing their hands

They could say no and not do it. Just because you told them t=does not mean they will obey you.

looking at this example. I would not say you caused them to do it. I would say you asked them to do it.

Now if they refuse. You can say they must or be punished.. but even then, I do not see this as being the cause. the cause would be fear of mamma!!

When a man rapes a woman he has "forced' himself upon her.

You've turned God into a rapist not a cause.

I have not turned God into a rapist. I do not think he forces himself on anyone. Which is what I have been trying to show

God will not force you to believe him. We must chose to receive him

But like your child, You could say no. to which you will suffer the consequences (eternal condemnation in this case)

 

[David1701]

View attachment 1085

I'm not convinced (at all) that the millenial kingdom is only future (nor that the 1,000 is meant to be taken in a rigidly literal sense). I believe that it refers to the church age, in which we are ruling and reigning with Christ, who always leads us in triumphal procession.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Try a dictionary then.

If I teach a child obedience and then ask that child to go and wash their hands before dinner I was the cause of them washing their hands

When a man rapes a woman he has "forced' himself upon her.

You've turned God into a rapist not a cause.

lets go back to this

I see this as a secondary cause, You influence them

could we say The main cause is they they feel.

1. They do it out of duty or obligation (They feel they have too)
2. They do it because they are afraid of being punished. (fear)
3. They do it because they love you and want to make you happen (gratitude)
4. They do it because they trust you, and know you have them do it for their own good. (faith)

 

[David1701]

or maybe God does not want to force people to receive him. He wants to show his love no matter what people do.

It's true that God does not force people to receive him (force implies overcoming resistance with greater and opposing power). Rather than forcing people to receive him, against their will (which he would be perfectly capable of doing), God gives us a new heart/spirit that willingly trusts, loves and obeys him (Ez. 36:26,27).

God is willing, not only to show his love, but also all his other attributes (holiness, justice, wrath, etc.).

He will be glorified when he casts out those who reject him, and glorified when he brings in those who receive him

Indeed he will; however, the Bible also says that repentance and faith are gifts from God, not something generated by sinful man (how could sinful man generate them, since he is, by nature, hostile towards God (Rom. 8:7,8) and he hates the light (John 3:19,20 - contrast with the condition of the one who has been born again, in John 3:21?).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Basically you're saying God is our puppet ...

SMH

if we are good then He's obligated to love/favor us and we are bad then God must punish us.

We are not good. there is none righteous no not one. All have sinned and fall short

God owes us nothing but his wrath

This contradicts God's independence. When it comes to rewards and punishment, men are the cause and God is obligated to respond to our actions.

God is independent, He does not require any action on our part. in fact. any action we do would still fall far short of even causing God to forgive the smallest sin we ever committed.

Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? To this your answer seems to be .... "we limit how much God can pour on us" which contradicts the verse

I can not pay God anything. The wage of sin is death. Even my own physical death would not pay for 1 sin, Spiritual death is what must be paid.. I am already dead. so someone has to pay they debt for me, Or I will suffer the consequences. this is called redemption

Why would God die in vain for those going to hell? That's what your saying if you state God died for everyone without exception.
Isaiah 55:11:

Why would god call himself a God of love if he did not die for everyone.)

The non believer goes to hell. not because he sinned, because he did nto believe.

The believer is saved, Not because they did anything, But because they received the gift of God

they both sinned

"So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but it will accomplish what I desire, and it will prosper in my purpose." ..... what you seems to say is that God will accomplish His desire and His desire it to accomplish our desires when it comes to our salvation. When it comes to salvation it would seem that man rather than God is almighty as man determines God's action.
Proverbs 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose that will prevail.

And this is the will of God. that all WHO SEE AND BELIEVE will have eternal life and I will raise them on the last day John 6

Again, you don't address the REASON they believed. I gave you the answer in John 1:12-13

The answer is the reason.

I shared this when I broke down john 1 : 12 - 13..

God is the power that makes us children of God. but we must receive that power.

I can not answer for what every person received God. nor can you. that is between them and God