Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[Whatever]

If God knows the future and doesn't save them, He's either helpless or uncaring.

Only 2 possibilities? Maybe if man is the center of importance.

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

The highest good in reality is God's glory. Like Paul asks, what if God showing another side of Himself by damning those people brings God glory? Carnal minds will be at enmity against that.

 

[Whatever]

No one has faith unless God gives it to him. God NEVER gives anyone dead faith; that is absurd!

When did I say God gives people dead faith. Dead faith is a human faith that is not genuine.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.

Simon believed and was baptized. Just a little later Peter tells him that his heart is not right in the sight of God.

That is a Spiritless dead faith.

 

[ReverendRV]

My relatives weren't/aren't murderers.

I feel for you Sister...

When I think about loved ones who may be in Hell, it helps me not to think of them as Murderers. All they did, that I know of, was to break the First Commandment; they didn't break the Sixth one. My grandfather fought in WWII; he was from the greatest generation. When my daddy left us, he took my Mother and the rest of us in. The list continues: but he was an Atheist until the end; breaking the First Commandment...

I reject Double Predestination; God doesn't use it. You should reject it, since it troubles you. There's an alternative; Single Predestination. First, God is not far from anyone; we can reach for him. Second, Jesus said he would Save the Trodden Soil if these people Believed in him. A thing is established by two or three Witnesses. This overthrows Double Predestination; he gave All an Option to be Saved...

This reminds me of a time because of a stricter Calvinism I had, when I thought babies dying before they could Believe the Gospel went to Hell. I always thought to myself, if there were just half a Verse to change my Mind; I would. Who wants to believe a hard Doctrine if they didn't have to? One day I was listening to Woodrow Kroll, and he said he was going to show the Verse which said babies don't go to Hell. I got my pen out; I was ready to fight. He looked and looked, then said he couldn't find it. This broke down my stronghold, and I was able to really listen to him give me that half Verse I needed...


Can Single Predestination be good enough for you? Perhaps not believing in Predestination at all would be good for you; but it seems that you Believe in it. It seems you're having trouble, in part, since Double Predestination seems true to you. My suggestion is, accept Single Predestination; the Bible says we get to make up our Minds about these things. Some Keep one Day; some Keep another. Some believe Double Predestination; some don't...

Though we defend Doctrines above all here; sometimes we need to cry with you instead. God bless you and yours...

 

[atpollard]

My relatives weren't/aren't murderers.

Matthew 5:21-22 [ESV] "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I [Jesus] say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.”

Are you sure? (I am a murderer by God’s standard … one of many sins for which I needed a savior.)

 

[Whatever]

Are you sure? (I am a murderer by God’s standard … one of many sins for which I needed a savior.)

James says if you have broken even the teeniest of God's commandment, you are guilty of breaking them all.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

So we are all murderers, adulterers, liars, thief's and so forth.

 

[Rescued One]

God does not love (volition to favor) those He does not save. He cares that His justice is applied to everyone without exception. (Cares: serious attention or consideration applied to doing something correctly or to avoid damage or risk.)

John 6:39 And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose any of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise [them all] up at the last day.

I guess I just keep struggling over the lost who weren't murderers or physically abusive. But I like John 6:39.

 

[Rescued One]

Matthew 5:21-22 [ESV] "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I [Jesus] say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.”

Are you sure? (I am a murderer by God’s standard … one of many sins for which I needed a savior.)

Thanks.

 

[Rescued One]

You might call me frustrated. I've always loved the Bible but have spent decades with Arminians who seem to avoid the topic of hell.

 

[fastfredy0]

I guess I just keep struggling over the lost who weren't murderers or physically abusive. But I like John 6:39.

I've been told we might rejoice over the punishment of those that are not in Christ. On the other hand, I'm of the impression that in heaven thoughts of the past might not come to mind. (Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 43:18, Rev. 21:4)

 

[ReverendRV]

I've been told we might rejoice over the punishment of those that are not in Christ. On the other hand, I'm of the impression that in heaven thoughts of the past might not come to mind. (Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 43:18, Rev. 21:4)

We're in the Kingdom now; how might we help her?

 

[Rescued One]

I feel for you Sister...

When I think about loved ones who may be in Hell, it helps me not to think of them as Murderers. All they did, that I know of, was to break the First Commandment; they didn't break the Sixth one. My grandfather fought in WWII; he was from the greatest generation. When my daddy left us, he took my Mother and the rest of us in. The list continues: but he was an Atheist until the end; breaking the First Commandment...

Thank you for sharing! My dad was in the army from 1949 -1969. he was an atheist.

Though we defend Doctrines above all here; sometimes we need to cry with you instead. God bless you and yours...

Thank you very, very much.

 

[fastfredy0]

We're in the Kingdom now

Well, the way I interpret those verses I don't see that we are currently in the situation spoken of. For example Rev.22:4 says there will be no more death which is not the current situation. Isaiah 65:17 speaks of a new heaven and earth which I see as future.

Maybe you define "kingdom" differently than I. I think of Kingdom as heavenly kingdom.

 

[Rescued One]

I've been told we might rejoice over the punishment of those that are not in Christ. On the other hand, I'm of the impression that in heaven thoughts of the past might not come to mind. (Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 43:18, Rev. 21:4)

I agree about heaven and I hope I'll see the Lutheran who taught me to pray at a young age.

 

[ReverendRV]

Well, the way I interpret those verses I don't see that we are currently in the situation spoken of. For example Rev.22:4 says there will be no more death which is not the current situation. Isaiah 65:17 speaks of a new heaven and earth which I see as future.

Maybe you define "kingdom" differently than I. I think of Kingdom as heavenly kingdom.

Sure...

So how can we help her now?

 

[fastfredy0]

So how can we help her now?

hmm... don't dwell on it perhaps ... there, but by the will of God, go I and be thankful ... .Everything worketh for good to those ...

 

[David1701]

Well, the way I interpret those verses I don't see that we are currently in the situation spoken of. For example Rev.22:4 says there will be no more death which is not the current situation. Isaiah 65:17 speaks of a new heaven and earth which I see as future.

Maybe you define "kingdom" differently than I. I think of Kingdom as heavenly kingdom.

Luke 17:20,21 (W.E.B.)
20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The Kingdom of God doesn’t come with observation;
21 neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

 

[fastfredy0]

Luke 17:20,21 (W.E.B.)
20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The Kingdom of God doesn’t come with observation;
21 neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

Well, when using the term "kingdom of God" one should clarify as it can have various meanings

• Psalm 103:19 (ESV) “The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.”
• Daniel 2:44 (ESV) “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed...”
• Mark 1:14-15 (ESV) “Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.’”
• John 3:3 “Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
• Millennial kingdom - “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit... He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan... and bound him for a thousand years...
  ...They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
  
  
  
  

 

[Arial]

I guess I just keep struggling over the lost who weren't murderers or physically abusive. But I like John 6:39.

That is something that probably won't ever go away. It shows your deep love and concern for them. I am sure most if not all of us deal with it. I don't think that any knowledge or understanding that is available to us will make it go away. No biblical terms or interpretations. And we don't know exactly what happens or what God might have done even in the final moments of someone's life. Keep your heart set on God. Some of the Reformed writers from earlier centuries are worth a read. A good one is "Communion With God" by John Owen. They were not as scattered and distracted as we are today. They were serious about pondering the things of God and you can see that in their writing. It isn't technical with this name and that name for this and that, but just a deep pondering of God. It brings a lot of peace.

 

[David1701]

Well, when using the term "kingdom of God" one should clarify as it can have various meanings

• Psalm 103:19 (ESV) “The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.”
• Daniel 2:44 (ESV) “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed...”
• Mark 1:14-15 (ESV) “Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.’”
• John 3:3 “Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
• Millennial kingdom - “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit... He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan... and bound him for a thousand years...
  ...They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
  

The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of God. There is only one Kingdom of God!

Ps. 103:19 - God's kingdom rules over all.

Dan. 2:44 - When Jesus came, God set up his kingdom that will never be destroyed.

Mark 1:14,15 - Jesus proclaims that the Kingdom of God was "at hand" (or "present").

John 3:3 - Being born again is necessary to perceive and enter God's kingdom.

Luke 17:20,21 - The Kingdom of God is within those who have been born again.

Millenial kingdom - Those who came to life (i.e. were born again) reigned with Christ (his kingdom was within them) for a thousand years (a very long and complete period of time). We reign with Christ now and that continues when this flesh gives up the ghost.

The Kingdom of God is within all those who are born again (being born again is coming to life).

 

[fastfredy0]

The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of God. There is only one Kingdom of God!

Depends upon how you define it as I pointed out in post #177. I suppose you have a point.