Is belief a choice?

[Bob Carabbio]

Not inaccurate at all Bob.

Christian is a name given to the first people to follow Christ. So, for this, I will use the word believer, it's more accurate to your question. Are you alright with that?

Not really if we're being accurate. We both know that "Belief" in general use only means "Mental assent", Christians have FAITH (Heb 11:1 ROm 10:17, Mark 11:22-24). I prefer "Born AGain" as the proper classification for a genuine Christian. (Christian is another word - like "love" which is so bandied about as to have lost any real significance.

And the answer is yes, I did become a believer without making a decision for Christ.

I don't have any understanding of THAT proclamation AT ALL. My decision to repent and surrender was agonizing.

The natural man does not accept the things of God, he is unable to.

Abram was a "Natural Man" (a Caananite heathen), and he accepted what God told him just fine right up to being willing to kill his only SON as an offering. What's your "Calvinist work around" for that??? (probably something to do with Old Testament "Calvinist Regeneration" wanna bet??).

 

[civic]

Interesting way of putting it.

How would you phrase it ? Thanks

 

[PeanutGallery]

Well, I think you should study and become more educated about Calvinism if that is your passion. This way you can become more consistent if that is what you desire to do.

I'll have nothing more to say to you until you decide to actually discuss the op.

One cannot believe unless first regenerated, no matter how much scripture one reads, studies, or thinks.

What exactly am I uneducated about Calvinism in the above statement?.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Are there many here who do not like or accept Calvinism? For those who do not: Do you think it is a Christian system? If not, what is suggested for the Calvinist who thinks he’s Christian?

When I was converted to Christianity, it was into an independent fundamentalist Baptist kind of church. They were KJV-Only, vehemently opposed to Calvinism, and held to young-earth creationism. (Curiously, I am none of those things now, and yet my faith in God is more mature and stronger than ever—which should be impossible, according to them.)

Since we strongly believed that Calvinism was a diabolic heresy, literally from the pit of hell, obviously we thought that Calvinism was not a Christian system. It was, in fact, anti-Christ and an existential threat. The only thing one could suggest for Calvinists was humble repentance, to surrender human logic and intellectualism at the cross of Christ, to follow Christ instead of mere men—especially men as wicked as John Calvin, the guy who burned Michael Servetus at the stake for the sin of disagreeing with him.

Or is it the other way around and the anti-Calvinist’s are wrong?

Obviously, somewhere along the way I became convinced that the anti-Calvinists were wrong. Just about everything they said about Calvinism was either a misrepresentation or simply false. That was an uncomfortable discovery. I had befriended someone who was a Calvinist and my views began to change when he challenged me on the sovereignty of God. When I discovered that my church had been wrong about Calvinism, I started to look at it more closely, to find out what they actually believed—and slowly, little by little, I found myself agreeing at each step. I briefly flirted with Amyraldism along the way but eventually, thanks in large part to the boys at Reformed Forum and to R. C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, I moved from a premillennialist Arminian dispensationalism to an amillennialist Reformed covenant theology.

Well, personally, I do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean, how can someone choose to believe anything?

I choose to believe that my wife loves me, even though everything in me broken by a traumatic childhood is always trying to convince me she doesn't. And that is analogous to my faith in God: I choose to believe that he loves me, because I choose to believe that his promises are more certain than my brokeness, a choice I make countless times each and every day because everything in me broken by sin is always trying to convince me otherwise.

The Spirit of God whispers in my soul, testifying to what scripture assures us about our Lord and Savior. I cling to those promises through daily confession and repentance, choosing to believe the truth in spite of the beguiling lies. I echo the words of that man who confessed to Jesus (Mark 9:24), "Lord, I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" As Spurgeon said, once a man is blessed with even a little faith, he is soon conscious of the greatness of his unbelief.

I believe—and it is a choice I make every single day. The struggle is real.

 

[Marilyn C]

It's absolutely consistent.

A similar example would be God decreeing to harden Pharaoh's heart, so that he refused to let Israel go, in spite of numerous warnings and plagues from God. When he finally did let them go, after all the firstborn in Egypt were killed, he pursued Israel, to destroy them; but, instead, God destroyed him and his whole army.

They were destroyed with a deluge of water, and, as we know, water is sometimes used as a symbol of God's word.

God in His foreknowledge knew that Pharoah would never agree to God`s plans for Israel, but it still did not prevent God from giving Pharoah numerous times to repent. It was Pharoah himself who chose to harden his own heart to God, and God knew Pharoah`s heart.

 

[Ritajanice]

God in His foreknowledge knew that Pharoah would never agree to God`s plans for Israel, but it still did not prevent God from giving Pharoah numerous times to repent. It was Pharoah himself who chose to harden his own heart to God, and God knew Pharoah`s heart.

I never knew that @Marilyn C about Pharaoh....thanks for sharing, I would never have known that, if I hadn’t looked it up online, it turned out to be a very interesting read...

 

[Marilyn C]

I never knew that @Marilyn C about Pharaoh....thanks for sharing, I would never have known that, if I hadn’t looked it up online, it turned out to be a very interesting read...

Hi Rita, nice to see you here too. Maybe we will have time to get to know each other as it looks like a caring environment.

 

[Ritajanice]

One thing for sure, you can’t choose to be “ birthed in the Spirit “.....nowhere in scripture does it say that ...what it does say is below in God’s word....you must be Born Again, which is the spiritual birth, that only God can do.

So, NO!!...you cannot choose to become “ Born Again.”....an impossibility......it’s a supernatural act, which only God can do through the Spirit.....

To receive God’s saving faith....belief comes from the Spirit of God to believe in Jesus....then comes the spirit, birthing you supernaturally ......if one thinks they can birth themselves into Christ, as thats what the rebirth is, we are in Christ, a new creation...then they are deluded if they believe they can do that.....imo/ belief....sin can only imo be revealed by God ,once we become born again, then we know in our spirit that we have just miraculously been set free from sin..as the setting free from sin, is a precious gift from God...undeserving on our part...an act of God’s mercy and grace.
One is set free from sin when we are birthed and NOT before..imo/ belief.

John 3:6​

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King James Version​

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6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:3-8​

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King James Version​

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3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[David1701]

They will remain as such, until such time as God changes decrees/ordains otherwise; that is consistent Calvinism.

God doesn't change his decrees; however, he could have decreed that you'll see the light today, or tomorrow, or ... we just don't know. We can but try.

 

[PeanutGallery]

God doesn't change his decrees ...

God could decree to change his decrees as he did with repentance:
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

... ; however, he could have decreed that you'll see the light today, or tomorrow, or ... we just don't know. We can but try.

We can only try what God has decreed us to try; right?

 

[David1701]

God could decree to change his decrees as he did with repentance:
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God's did not change his decree towards the Ninevites! Do you not realise that this would negate his omniscience (at the least)? The Bible makes it clear how God deals with repentant people; and God's warning, through Jonah, produced repentance in them.

 

[Josheb]

Is Belief a Choice?

Are there many here who do not like or accept Calvinism? For those who do not, do you think it is a Christian system? If not, what is suggested for the Calvinist who thinks he’s Christian? Or is it the other way around?
And the anti-Calvinist’s are wrong,
This could be quite confusing for many people.

Well I personally do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean. How can someone choose to believe anything?
You might like something and think it is interesting but if there really is no evidence? Why would anyone or should I say, how can anyone believe it. Can someone make themselves believe? I don’t think so.

How can someone believe then? "They must have evidence."And by another person explaining something to you is not evidence, that’s information. Which puts it right back at the beginning again.

So how do we get evidence? I think in this may be the answer. From reading/studying and thinking it over, I believed in Jesus because it became evident that he was who the scripture says he was, I just knew he was.
Not because people told me who he was or what he did. If I had to believe, or, “make myself believe” I don’t know if I could have gone it. I mean, how?

In my forty years working in the mental health and social services field I have met thousands (literally) of people who claim to believe one thing or another with absolutely no evidence of that said belief actualized anywhere in their life, past or present. Very little of what is said to be a belief is evidenced in an ability to articulate the case for that belief with any logical substance.

• Folks often say they believe X.
• They have very little ability to logically clarify or explain the constituent elements of that belief.
• There is no evidence any word of it is actualized, or observable in their life.

A lack of integrity between "thought," and word and deed is quite common.

That does not happen without choices . The plethora of choices necessary to absent an articulate explanation followed by the plethora of choices necessary to not act on said "belief," betray any possibility any claim of belief as choice has any veracity. Therefore, I am inclined to say to anyone who claims belief is a choice,

"Show me."

It's a Catch-22 and I'm not going to explain that (yet) because I suspect many won't understand the "catch".

 

[fastfredy0]

Therefore, I am inclined to say to anyone who claims belief is a choice,

"Show me."

Communication requires definition ....
Choice: To select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.

Everyone who has heard the salvific message has the ability to choose (select from possible alternatives) to believe leading to salvation.
Qualifications:

1. If God does not regenerate a person, said person will always choose to not believe.
2. If God regenerates a person, said person will always choose to believe.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
John 6:39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the last day.

It's a Catch-22 and I'm not going to explain that (yet) because I suspect many won't understand the "catch".

Oh, oh ... ... it's a trap ...

 

[Eleanor]

Communication requires definition ....
Choice: To select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.

Everyone who has heard the salvific message has the ability to choose (select from possible alternatives) to believe leading to salvation.

Ro 8:7?

Qualifications:

1. If God does not regenerate a person, said person will always choose to not believe.
2. If God regenerates a person, said person will always choose to believe.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
John 6:39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the last day.


Oh, oh ... ... it's a trap ...

 

[Eleanor]

Are there many here who do not like or accept Calvinism? For those who do not, do you think it is a Christian system? If not, what is suggested for the Calvinist who thinks he’s Christian? Or is it the other way around?
And the anti-Calvinist’s are wrong,
This could be quite confusing for many people.

Well I personally do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean. How can someone choose to believe anything?
You might like something and think it is interesting but if there really is no evidence? Why would anyone or should I say, how can anyone believe it. Can someone make themselves believe? I don’t think so.

How can someone believe then? "They must have evidence."And by another person explaining something to you is not evidence, that’s information. Which puts it right back at the beginning again.

So how do we get evidence? I think in this may be the answer. From reading/studying and thinking it over, I believed in Jesus because it became evident that he was who the scripture says he was, I just knew he was.
Not because people told me who he was or what he did. If I had to believe, or, “make myself believe” I don’t know if I could have gone it. I mean, how?

You cannot make yourself believe what you do not believe. At least, I couldn't.

 

[Carbon]

You cannot make yourself believe what you do not believe. At least, I couldn't.

Exactly.

 

[Eleanor]

I think it is safe to say, faith always follows the judgment of the intellect as to, whether a thing is true. It is never a product of the will. Men never believe a thing because they like to believe it, or because they resolve to believe it.
After all, all people, time and time again believe things that they do not like at all, just because they are forced to acknowledge these reports as reality. So, psychologically speaking, saving faith, just as well as any other kind of faith, is forced consent.

Not if you agree.

 

[Carbon]

Not if you agree.

But you agree because you have been shown evidence. And since you have been shown, and it is irresistible, in this sense, it is forced consent. Do you catch my meaning? Perhaps there is a better way of explaining it?

 

[Eleanor]

I do not play, I am being consistent with Calvinism; I do as decreed/ordained by God. Asking me if I would rather play, would reveal your belief that man can freely choose.

Biblical free will is the power to freely choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Every believer chooses what he prefers in that regard.

 

[Eleanor]

But you agree because you have been shown evidence. And since you have been shown, and it is irresistible, in this sense, it is forced consent. Do you catch my meaning? Perhaps there is a better way of explaining it?

I choose chocolate ice cream because I prefer it. Period. The preference is the "evidence" by which I choose, and preference is never forced.

I choose to believe because I prefer it. Preference is never forced.
It's about disposition, not intellect.
Intellect then sorts out what the disposition prefers and has chosen.

Disposition "owns" it, even when it doesn't understand it.
That "ownership" is the power of insight and understanding.