If the Wailing Wall is the Remains of the Temple Then Jesus Made A False Prophecy

[Mr GLee]

Read the quote you posted yourself from Josephus. Absolutely NOTHING remained from the temple. No stone on top of one another. No one could recognize anything was ever there. The Wailing Wall is a false tradition made up after all eye witnesses were no longer around.

It continues to boggle my mind how very few want to accept Jesus's own words as a literal prediction.

Why look to the private interptation of of Josephus? or any called "church fathers "

Living faith is the gift of eternal life.

Christians have the same perfect source of Christ's faith as it is written (sola scriptura) sealed with 7 seals till the end of time .as they did.

Christians are lovingly warned not to add or subject from the perfect.. . using the oral traditions of dying mankind to make his word desolate No one can serve two good teaching masters coming.from. . . #1 a unseen eternal God. or #2 the temporal things of men, oral traditions after the things seen, dying faithless mankind? Men or God?.

When the Son of man Jesus was given words from the Holy Father. In Mathew 23 God declared it is desolate (not will be. . .is.)

The mark of His word what he prophecies it become law . . not subject to change after the oral traditions of dying mankind. Jesus in Matthew 23 walked out of the abomination of desolation. Temple made with human hands declared it is desolate .

No signs as temporal shadows . . . what the eyes see were given to wonder after .Signs are ceremonies to the world in a hope of drawing mankind to the living word of God . Prophecy as it is writen for the believers .

No signs were given. Jesus said signs are for faithless they have no vision as it is writen as power that could please God the author and perfecter. The power that works in born again believers.

The pagan or atheist foundation (out of sight out of mind) as in who believes in God as a Holy Father not seen? The fool say there is no God in thier hard dark hearts.

No faith as power of God by which they could please God. Faithless none not little

Hebrews11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

He gives us new eyes to see and new ears to understand

Christians are empowered by his Spirit that works in them therefore they can continue to walk by faith the power of His unsen labor of love

Yoked with him our daily burdens can be made lighter, with a future living hope beyond the grave

 

[Hobie]

When you show respect for the subject of this thread and actually read and verify the research I have presented, then I might do the same for the material you present. I'm just not interested in derailing this thread.

Well, the 'wailing wall' was not part of the Temple, that is where you have a problem in the OP of the thread. The whole temple complex was enclosed by the 'foundation'/wall which kept the Gentiles out, and that is not the Temple. When the Romans filled up the temple complex after its destruction, they filled it up to the top of the 'foundation'/wall and thus you have the 'base' on which the Dome of the Rock sits on. The Temple sat 50 feet below and the Jews cant even get up where the Dome of the Rock is to rebuild, much less dig down and uncover where the Temple sat.

 

[Hobie]

Here is something I came across on what happened when the Jews tried to rebuild way back then...
"

The Historian Ammianus Marcellinus (A.D. c.330 - 395)​

"Res Gestae," Book XXIII​

He [Julian the Apostate] planned at vast cost to restore the once splendid Temple at Jerusalem, which after many mortal combats during the siege by Vespasian and later by Titus had barely been stormed. He had entrusted the speedy performance of this work to Alypius of Antioch... But though this Alypius pushed the work on with vigor, aided by the governor of the province, terrible balls of fire kept bursting forth near the foundations of the Temple and made the place inaccessible to the workmen, some of whom were burned to death; and since in this way the element persistently repelled them, the enterprise halted..."

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Well, the 'wailing wall' was not part of the Temple, that is where you have a problem in the OP of the thread. The whole temple complex was enclosed by the 'foundation'/wall which kept the Gentiles out, and that is not the Temple. When the Romans filled up the temple complex after its destruction, they filled it up to the top of the 'foundation'/wall and thus you have the 'base' on which the Dome of the Rock sits on. The Temple sat 50 feet below and the Jews cant even get up where the Dome of the Rock is to rebuild, much less dig down and uncover where the Temple sat.

As I stated and is so plainly obvious if anyone researches this topic, you do not understand the basics of architecture and how the site was designed. You don't realize how silly your statements really are.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This is an important realization. If any part of the temple still exists, then Jesus' prophecy is not true. Can you accept that?

Correction: " If, IN MY OPINION, any part of the temple still exists, then Jesus' prophecy is not true."

Opinions (and theologies) are like noses.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Correction: " If, IN MY OPINION, any part of the temple still exists, then Jesus' prophecy is not true."

Opinions (and theologies) are like noses.

Jesus own words are NOT an opinion. If you don't want to believe him, that is your choice.

 

[Josheb]

Jesus own words are NOT an opinion.

But the first two opening posts of this thread are opinions....

If you don't want to believe him, that is your choice.

...and opinions that do not believe Jesus' words.


Therefore, Post 66 undermines Posts 1 and 2.

 

[Hobie]

As I stated and is so plainly obvious if anyone researches this topic, you do not understand the basics of architecture and how the site was designed. You don't realize how silly your statements really are.

The Temple Mount (Hebrew: הַר הַבַּיִת, romanized: Har haBayīt, lit. 'Mount of the House [of the Holy]'), also known as Haram al-Sharif (Arabic: الحرم الشريف, lit. 'The Noble Sanctuary'), al-Aqsa Mosque compound, or simply al-Aqsa (المسجد الأقصى, al-Masjid al-Aqṣā, lit. 'The Furthest Mosque'),[2] and sometimes as Jerusalem's holy esplanade,[3][4] is a hill in the Old City of Jerusalem that has been venerated as a holy site in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam for thousands of years.[5][6]

The plaza is surrounded by retaining walls (including the Western Wall), originally built by King Herod . The Western Wall (Hebrew: הַכּוֹתֶל הַמַּעֲרָבִי, romanized: HaKotel HaMa'aravi, lit. 'the western wall',[1] often shortened to the Kotel or Kosel), known in the West as the Wailing Wall, and in Islam as the Buraq Wall (Arabic: حَائِط ٱلْبُرَاق, Ḥā'iṭ al-Burāq ['ħaːʔɪtˤ albʊ'raːq]),[2] is a portion of ancient limestone wall in the Old City of Jerusalem that forms part of the larger retaining wall of the hill known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount. Just over half the wall's total height, including its 17 courses located below street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, and is believed to have been begun by Herod the Great.

 

[Hobie]

The Wailing Wall, is the outer court retaining wall as I said, which surrounded the Temple, so need to get your facts lined up.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

The Wailing Wall, is the outer court retaining wall as I said, which surrounded the Temple, so need to get your facts lined up.

Putting aside the FACT that the Wailing Wall was not part of the Temple, architecturally, your statement is completely against building design.

 

[Hobie]

Putting aside the FACT that the Wailing Wall was not part of the Temple, architecturally, your statement is completely against building design.

All I can only say, everyone can look it over and see what the layout is. If you have something you can show us, we are willing to look at it.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

All I can only say, everyone can look it over and see what the layout is. If you have something you can show us, we are willing to look at it.

LOL. Yes, please do look. Because any historical temple building design PROVES that a RETAINING WALL is part of a foundation. And not the walls of the building proper. Your statement are completely against any kind of factual evidence in historical building design or modern building design. Your comments display complete ignorance of the subject.

 

[Mr GLee]

LOL. Yes, please do look. Because any historical temple building design PROVES that a RETAINING WALL is part of a foundation. And not the walls of the building proper. Your statement are completely against any kind of factual evidence in historical building design or modern building design. Your comments display complete ignorance of the subject.

God does not dwell in temples made with human hands as a will. Right before he walked out of the abomination of desolation temples made with dying mankind's hand. Jesu was given words from the Father ,Jesus the Son of man prophecies it is desolate not wil be but is
No signs were given to wonder after

That which remained was used as a idol wordships a warning not follow after the things seen the temporal corrupted but look to the unseen work of our Holy Father . . your house is left unto you desolate.

Is desolate. The mark of His word (666) what he says comes to pass .

Mathew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Genesis 4: 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, (666) lest any finding him should kill him.

The mark of his word no one killed Cain before his time he suffered the pangs of hell till the day he departed

The mark of His word is left desolate

 

[Josheb]

The Wailing Wall, is the outer court retaining wall as I said, which surrounded the Temple, so need to get your facts lined up.

Yep. It was the wall surrounding the temple grounds, NOT part of one of the buildings.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Yep. It was the wall surrounding the temple grounds, NOT part of one of the buildings.

This is like arguing that the sky is blue. It's laughable what you people are saying. I just shake my head.

 

[Shulammite]

If you believe that Messiah Jesus was always correct, how do you explain Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2, and Luke 21:5-6?

[Mar 13:1-2 LSB] 1 And as He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" 2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."

It's very clear that the New Testament Gospel writers record that Jesus predicted total and complete destruction of the 2nd temple complex. It is verified and accepted history that the Roman army beseiged, captured and ultimately destroyed the temple and the city walls in 70 AD.

Yet, we are told by the Jewish religious leaders and archaeologists that a portion of that temple still exists. The Wailing Wall. The western portion of the temple mount. It is considered one of the most holy sites.

Both can not be true. Either Messiah Jesus is a liar or Jewish tradition is believing a lie. Oh, but the inventive minds of Christian scholars provide an answer. They get around this problem by stating that the Wailing Wall is only the retaining wall of the temple - not really part of the temple itself. However, Jesus said "not one stone will be left".

Josephus provides some inconvenient facts in his history. "NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind." War of the Jews, Book VII, Chapter 1

Josephus states the entire city AND temple were demolished. But scholars would have you believe that the army left the foundations intact. Josephus says that part of the city's western wall was spared including 3 truly magnificent towers. This western wall had nothing to do with the temple. But all of the rest of the wall was so thoroughly destroyed no one could even tell anything had ever been there. Anyone can research where the temple was located. It was part of the EASTERN wall of the city. That means, the temple buildings AND the retaining walls and complex would have been thoroughly demolished. Just as Jesus predicted.

But no one has ever discovered where the Roman fort of Antonia was. The fort that was located just north of the temple, on a hill which provided an overview of the temple complex. A fort that was a city within a city. Housing for an entire legion. Why would the Romans destroy their own massive fort? They wouldn't. So what the Jews consider the Wailing Wall and the current temple mount, is actually the location of that Antonia Fortress. They are deluding themselves and believing a lie.

This is an important realization. If any part of the temple still exists, then Jesus' prophecy is not true. Can you accept that?

Very well said

 

[Josheb]

This is like arguing that the sky is blue. It's laughable what you people are saying. I just shake my head.

You can ridicule, mock and dismiss the posters here all you like but ridicule, mockery, and dismissiveness do not prove the op correct. They only make you look childish and incapable of cogent discourse.

The fact is the texts cited in this op specify the buildings and the buildings visible from the entrance of the temple. The fact is this op is built on an argument saying we must adhere to the exactness of scripture, but the op fails to do that which it claims it requires. The op breaks its own rules. In other words, there isn't just one fatal flaw in the op, there are many. Instead of addressing those problems in polite discussion you ridicule, mock and dismiss (apparently thinking that is somehow meaningful and persuasive).

Several posters have broached very real and valid concerns. In the vernacular of scripture, the matters have been established by more than two witnesses (and these witnesses do not share a common eschatological bias). None of the texts cited in the opening inquiry of this op state anything about the wailing wall. Because it was assumed those scriptures include the wall surrounding the temple area, the entire op is built on a straw man. I do not know whether you learned this argument from someone else or you developed it from your own "study," but had more study been done this op would not exist because had you investigated which part of the temple to which the wailing wall belonged, you'd have readily discovered it did not belong to the temple building at all! Now you know this and therefore you also know your sources are also flawed and should either be used with greater critique and discernment or abandoned altogether (along with the biases that thought those sources acceptable in the first place).

Ridicule, mockery, and dismissiveness do not change facts.

The wailing wall was not part of the temple. The wailing wall is NOT "the remains of the temple." The temple was, in fact, destroyed and destroyed so violently not one stone stood upon another. Exactly as Jesus stated.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

You can ridicule, mock and dismiss the posters here all you like but ridicule, mockery, and dismissiveness do not prove the op correct. They only make you look childish and incapable of cogent discourse.

The fact is the texts cited in this op specify the buildings and the buildings visible from the entrance of the temple. The fact is this op is built on an argument saying we must adhere to the exactness of scripture, but the op fails to do that which it claims it requires. The op breaks its own rules. In other words, there isn't just one fatal flaw in the op, there are many. Instead of addressing those problems in polite discussion you ridicule, mock and dismiss (apparently thinking that is somehow meaningful and persuasive).

Several posters have broached very real and valid concerns. In the vernacular of scripture, the matters have been established by more than two witnesses (and these witnesses do not share a common eschatological bias). None of the texts cited in the opening inquiry of this op state anything about the wailing wall. Because it was assumed those scriptures include the wall surrounding the temple area, the entire op is built on a straw man. I do not know whether you learned this argument from someone else or you developed it from your own "study," but had more study been done this op would not exist because had you investigated which part of the temple to which the wailing wall belonged, you'd have readily discovered it did not belong to the temple building at all! Now you know this and therefore you also know your sources are also flawed and should either be used with greater critique and discernment or abandoned altogether (along with the biases that thought those sources acceptable in the first place).

Ridicule, mockery, and dismissiveness do not change facts.

The wailing wall was not part of the temple. The wailing wall is NOT "the remains of the temple." The temple was, in fact, destroyed and destroyed so violently not one stone stood upon another. Exactly as Jesus stated.

Your statements deserve to be treated as the false assertions that they are. You display complete ignorance of architectural subjects. It's best you stop.

 

[Josheb]

Your statements deserve to be treated as the false assertions that they are. You display complete ignorance of architectural subjects. It's best you stop.

Right back at you. The op and its supporting defense deserve to be treated as the false assertions that they are. Post 78 should be applied according to Lamentations 3:40 and all the many similar admonitions in scripture.

The difference between us is I'm willing to discuss these ops with manners, respect, reason, and scripture, but have not received parity.

It's best you stop.

This is perhaps the most laughable of responses because this is an international internet discussion board where people from all over the globe with hugely diverse perspectives post their views on a hugely diverse set of topics and others should NOT stop doing exactly what the forum is designed to facilitate. Ops like this one are always going to receive dissent and that cannot be prevented. Every minute in the forum is necessarily going to come accommodated with those who hold different views and accusing those posters, mocking them, ridiculing them, and demanding they stop will never work. An expectation dissent will stop is a recipe for personal dissatisfaction. It's also the easy way out.

It takes work for a person to make an impeccable case for what s/he believes and the flawlessness of a case is proved by its withstanding the demands its critics bring to bear upon it. The single best case any of us can make is.....

a polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent and coherent topical case of well-rendered scripture.

This op fails in every single one of those metrics. The wailing wall was not part of the temple buildings cited in Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2, and Luke 21:5-6. The entire op is built on a scripture abusing straw man and an irrational appeal to exactness. What is best is that the fact the wailing wall is not a temple building be acknowledged.

Mark 13:1-2
As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."

Matthew 24:1-2
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

Luke 21:5-6
And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."

Explicit mentions of the building(s). Not one single mention of the wall.

It's very clear that the New Testament Gospel writers record that Jesus predicted total and complete destruction of the 2nd temple complex.

That is not what Jesus said, at all. He never mentioned any "complex." He specified the temple, and the "buildings" of the temple specifically. He never once mentioned the "complex" or the wall surrounding the buildings. The op's reading of the texts cited is wholly eisegetic.

Yes, stone walls were part of the temple. The Wailing Wall is not this type of wall. It is a foundation. No one went "in" to the structure through the Wailing Wall. The retaining wall is part of the entire upper flat area that is EXACTLY the same size as Roman forts built all over their empire. Exactly the same size. It was not where the Temple stood.

There is nothing "exactly" about this op. It is built on over-generalizations, falsehoods (factual errors), and sloppy readings of scripture (and history), and faulty logic. If the wailing wall is not where the temple stood, then it is not a part of the temple.

Therefore, the premise the wailing wall is evidence Jesus words have not yet come true is baseless.

Your statements deserve to be treated as the false assertions that they are. You display complete ignorance of architectural subjects. It's best you stop.

Right back at you.

 

[Mod46]

The difference between us is I'm willing to discuss these ops with manners, respect, reason, and scripture, but you are not. You had behind accusation, not evidence. Your statements deserve to be treated as the false assertions they are but you are given the benefit of the doubt and invited to examine greater evidence (along with your biases). You routinely and repeatedly display ignorance on many subjects but are given the benefit of the doubt and invited to discuss additional evidence and you always refuse to do so.

This is about the poster and not the post and has no manners or respect. It is accusatory. This is a warning to keep to the subject and stop with the personal derogatory remarks.