If the Wailing Wall is the Remains of the Temple Then Jesus Made A False Prophecy

[eclipseEventSigns]

So what did the one official NT quote of Dan 9 mean?

I'm not interested in playing childish gotcha games. There are 2 places where Dan 9 are directly referenced. Mat 24:15 and Mar 13:14. How about you get your quotes right first.

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm not interested in playing childish gotcha games. There are 2 places where Dan 9 are directly referenced. Mat 24:15 and Mar 13:14. How about you get your quotes right first.

They are the same instance in reality. This is no gotcha game. If you don’t know that they refer to figures in that generation in the Jewish revolt, you have not even started your studies.

The last week of Daniel 9 is a remarkable description of the revolt by Israel under a horrible person , ruining the country. But what Messiah was meant to accomplish succeeds.

It’s NT history compressed to about as few words as possible.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

They are the same instance in reality. This is no gotcha game. If you don’t know that they refer to figures in that generation in the Jewish revolt, you have not even started your studies.

The last week of Daniel 9 is a remarkable description of the revolt by Israel under a horrible person , ruining the country. But what Messiah was meant to accomplish succeeds.

It’s NT history compressed to about as few words as possible.

Yes, your games continue. Not interested.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

It's not a false prophecy by Jesus. Rather, "the end of the world" refers to exactly just that - the fact that this planet earth will eventually cease to exist along with everything on it. So when Jesus says no stone will be left, he is not talking about some eschatological system involving his second coming with all its related activities and theories that Christians have devised. He is literally saying that the world will disappear along with everything on it. A similar type of "end times" Biblical passage occurs in Peter's epistle about the heavens being consumed by fire.

 

[Hobie]

If you believe that Messiah Jesus was always correct, how do you explain Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2, and Luke 21:5-6?

[Mar 13:1-2 LSB] 1 And as He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" 2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."

It's very clear that the New Testament Gospel writers record that Jesus predicted total and complete destruction of the 2nd temple complex. It is verified and accepted history that the Roman army beseiged, captured and ultimately destroyed the temple and the city walls in 70 AD.

Yet, we are told by the Jewish religious leaders and archaeologists that a portion of that temple still exists. The Wailing Wall. The western portion of the temple mount. It is considered one of the most holy sites.

Both can not be true. Either Messiah Jesus is a liar or Jewish tradition is believing a lie. Oh, but the inventive minds of Christian scholars provide an answer. They get around this problem by stating that the Wailing Wall is only the retaining wall of the temple - not really part of the temple itself. However, Jesus said "not one stone will be left".

Josephus provides some inconvenient facts in his history. "NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind." War of the Jews, Book VII, Chapter 1

Josephus states the entire city AND temple were demolished. But scholars would have you believe that the army left the foundations intact. Josephus says that part of the city's western wall was spared including 3 truly magnificent towers. This western wall had nothing to do with the temple. But all of the rest of the wall was so thoroughly destroyed no one could even tell anything had ever been there. Anyone can research where the temple was located. It was part of the EASTERN wall of the city. That means, the temple buildings AND the retaining walls and complex would have been thoroughly demolished. Just as Jesus predicted.

But no one has ever discovered where the Roman fort of Antonia was. The fort that was located just north of the temple, on a hill which provided an overview of the temple complex. A fort that was a city within a city. Housing for an entire legion. Why would the Romans destroy their own massive fort? They wouldn't. So what the Jews consider the Wailing Wall and the current temple mount, is actually the location of that Antonia Fortress. They are deluding themselves and believing a lie.

This is an important realization. If any part of the temple still exists, then Jesus' prophecy is not true. Can you accept that?

The Temple was completely destroyed, only the walls of the inner court were left, that is what the Wailing Wall is. The Romans covered the inner court with 50 feet of ruble and dirt, and later built on top of it a pagan temple to thier gods which is where the Dome of the Rock is now. Here is a good explanation.."Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who was present in Jerusalem when the city was captured and burned, described the devastation in this manner:

“The countryside like the City was a pitiful sight; for where once there had been a lovely vista of woods and parks there was nothing but desert and stumps of treesÖ every trace of beauty had been blotted out by war, and nobody who had known it in the past and came upon it suddenly would have recognized the place: when he was already there he would still have been looking for the city.”

As the fire set by the Romans in 70 AD raged through the sanctuary in the Temple, quantities of silver and gold, which had been placed there for safe-keeping, melted and ran down between the stones. Roman soldiers tore apart the stones to retrieve the gold and silver, literally leaving “not one stone left upon another” as Yeshua had foretold forty years earlier as recorded in Matthew 24:2. "https://hope4israel.org/jerusalem-70-ad-not-one-stone-left-upon-another/

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

The Temple was completely destroyed, only the walls of the inner court were left, that is what the Wailing Wall is. The Romans covered the inner court with 50 feet of ruble and dirt, and later built on top of it a pagan temple to thier gods which is where the Dome of the Rock is now. Here is a good explanation.."Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who was present in Jerusalem when the city was captured and burned, described the devastation in this manner:

“The countryside like the City was a pitiful sight; for where once there had been a lovely vista of woods and parks there was nothing but desert and stumps of treesÖ every trace of beauty had been blotted out by war, and nobody who had known it in the past and came upon it suddenly would have recognized the place: when he was already there he would still have been looking for the city.”

As the fire set by the Romans in 70 AD raged through the sanctuary in the Temple, quantities of silver and gold, which had been placed there for safe-keeping, melted and ran down between the stones. Roman soldiers tore apart the stones to retrieve the gold and silver, literally leaving “not one stone left upon another” as Yeshua had foretold forty years earlier as recorded in Matthew 24:2. "https://hope4israel.org/jerusalem-70-ad-not-one-stone-left-upon-another/

Some of what you write is factual. Some isn't.
The "walls of the inner court" remaining is not factual. The Wailing Wall is the western portion of a retaining wall.
The quote from Josephus is one of the very important eye witness statements that the ENTIRE temple structure was demolished. So much so that no one could tell there was ever anything at that site. In that same part, Josephus talks about the Antonia Fortress remaining and how it was attached to the eastern wall of the city. All the rest of the city wall was torn down at that time.
Only the Roman fortress wasn't destroyed. And why would it be? It was the city within a city that was the home for the Romans.

 

[Hobie]

Some of what you write is factual. Some isn't.
The "walls of the inner court" remaining is not factual. The Wailing Wall is the western portion of a retaining wall.
The quote from Josephus is one of the very important eye witness statements that the ENTIRE temple structure was demolished. So much so that no one could tell there was ever anything at that site. In that same part, Josephus talks about the Antonia Fortress remaining and how it was attached to the eastern wall of the city. All the rest of the city wall was torn down at that time.
Only the Roman fortress wasn't destroyed. And why would it be? It was the city within a city that was the home for the Romans.

They had a wall to keep the Gentiles out, sorry must have been still asleep, I meant to say the 'outer court' which I think is the 'retaining wall' you refer to. It surrounded the entire temple court and had warning signs. Here is from Josephus..."The historian Josephus also mentions this inscription in his work, Antiquities of the Jews: “The center of the structure was the tallest, with the front wall being built with beams which sat upon interlocking pillars. Highly glossed stones made up this wall, so finely polished that those who looked upon it for the first time marveled at it in amazement. This was the description of the first structure. Located within it, and nearby, were steps which led up to the second structure, which was surrounded by a stone wall used as a barrier, engraved with an inscription not allowing foreigners to enter into it under the penalty of death.”

The Soreg Inscription Seperating Jews and Gentiles

The wall of seperation warning found in the Bible is mentioned on the Soreg Inscription

www.biblehistory.net

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

They had a wall to keep the Gentiles out, sorry must have been still asleep, I meant to say the 'outer court' which I think is the 'retaining wall' you refer to. It surrounded the entire temple court and had warning signs. Here is from Josephus..."The historian Josephus also mentions this inscription in his work, Antiquities of the Jews: “The center of the structure was the tallest, with the front wall being built with beams which sat upon interlocking pillars. Highly glossed stones made up this wall, so finely polished that those who looked upon it for the first time marveled at it in amazement. This was the description of the first structure. Located within it, and nearby, were steps which led up to the second structure, which was surrounded by a stone wall used as a barrier, engraved with an inscription not allowing foreigners to enter into it under the penalty of death.”

The Soreg Inscription Seperating Jews and Gentiles

The wall of seperation warning found in the Bible is mentioned on the Soreg Inscription

www.biblehistory.net

A retaining wall is not a court. It is a foundation that a structure is built on. This is basic architecture design. Your statements show lack of understanding of building construction.

 

[Hobie]

A retaining wall is not a court. It is a foundation that a structure is built on. This is basic architecture design. Your statements show lack of understanding of building construction.

Stone wall that was around the outer court, but the temple was demolished, that was my point... https://lucris.lub.lu.se/ws/portalfiles/portal/57820558/Court_of_the_Gentiles_m_fr.pdf

Design of Jerusalem's Temple

What are the major interior sections of Jerusalem's temple? What are they called? Where is the Holy of Holies located?

www.biblestudy.org

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Stone wall that was around the outer court... https://lucris.lub.lu.se/ws/portalfiles/portal/57820558/Court_of_the_Gentiles_m_fr.pdf

Design of Jerusalem's Temple

What are the major interior sections of Jerusalem's temple? What are they called? Where is the Holy of Holies located?

www.biblestudy.org

Yes, stone walls were part of the temple. The Wailing Wall is not this type of wall. It is a foundation. No one went "in" to the structure through the Wailing Wall. The retaining wall is part of the entire upper flat area that is EXACTLY the same size as Roman forts built all over their empire. Exactly the same size. It was not where the Temple stood.

 

[Hobie]

Yes, stone walls were part of the temple. The Wailing Wall is not this type of wall. It is a foundation. No one went "in" to the structure through the Wailing Wall. The retaining wall is part of the entire upper flat area that is EXACTLY the same size as Roman forts built all over their empire. Exactly the same size. It was not where the Temple stood.

But the temple was completely destroyed, only the outside 'foundation' around the temple complex that make the wailing wall were left, right......

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

But the temple was completely destroyed, only the outside walls around the temple complex that make the wailing wall were left, right......

Read the quote you posted yourself from Josephus. Absolutely NOTHING remained from the temple. No stone on top of one another. No one could recognize anything was ever there. The Wailing Wall is a false tradition made up after all eye witnesses were no longer around.

It continues to boggle my mind how very few want to accept Jesus's own words as a literal prediction.

 

[Hobie]

Read the quote you posted yourself from Josephus. Absolutely NOTHING remained from the temple. No stone on top of one another. No one could recognize anything was ever there. The Wailing Wall is a false tradition made up after all eye witnesses were no longer around.

It continues to boggle my mind how very few want to accept Jesus's own words as a literal prediction.

Thats what I said, "the temple was demolished, that was my point..."

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Thats what I said, "the temple was demolished, that was my point..."

Well, the main point is that NOTHING remains of the temple. The Wailing wall was not part of the temple. It is the site where the Roman Antonia Fortress was.

 

[Marty]

No Jesus was just being symbolic of destruction

Jesus confirms it Himself in the verses below talking about that very same event and generation. Obviously He was being symbolic

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

 

[EarlyActs]

Yes, your games continue. Not interested.

There is no game. It's published. M. Sanford THE COVENANT REVOLT, Amazon. Based on my master's degree research as well. Over the past 50 years, I have heard a new expert every month; none of them history-based, none of them interested in what Josephus and Caiaphas meant about Daniel 9. Not really good research that.

Here's a way to get introduced to Holford, though the doc is wider than his work. The doc is about revolution in general.

Have you read Barnett BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT? IVP. I pasted a section here on the 1st century situation as understood at the time.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

There is no game. It's published. M. Sanford THE COVENANT REVOLT, Amazon. Based on my master's degree research as well. Over the past 50 years, I have heard a new expert every month; none of them history-based, none of them interested in what Josephus and Caiaphas meant about Daniel 9. Not really good research that.

Here's a way to get introduced to Holford, though the doc is wider than his work. The doc is about revolution in general.

Have you read Barnett BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT? IVP. I pasted a section here on the 1st century situation as understood at the time.

Nothing you write about even happened historically. And you can't provide any proof for any of your claims.

 

[EarlyActs]

Yes, your games continue. Not interested.

There is no game. It's published. M. Sanford THE COVENANT REVOLT, Amazon. Based on my master's degree research as well. Over the past 50 years, I have heard a new expert every month; none of them history-base, none of them interested in what Josephus and Caiaphas meant about Daniel 9. Not really good research that.

Here's a way to get introduced to Holford, though the doc is wider than his work. The doc is about revolution in general.

Have you read Barnett BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT? IVP. I pasted a section here on the 1st century situation as understood at the time.

 

[EarlyActs]

Nothing you write about even happened historically. And you can't provide any proof for any of your claims.

The biological proof of it is Luke 23:28.

Here's Barnett:






Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”



Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).

This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).

Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.

John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.

The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.

The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)

Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.

Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.

The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).

Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)

Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…

The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…

In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.

It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.

But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.



--pages 237—241.

 

[EarlyActs]

If Luke 23:28 is a problem on that question of historicity, let me know.