Hebrews 6

[Eleanor]

Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. Heb 6:9.
Yes, I believe this verse proves the author was teaching about those who are not saved.

Paul also had a way of speaking positively, to encourage, when salvation was at issue, as in Ro 11:23, making God's rejection conditional.

 

[Eleanor]

There are good arguments on both sides for sure that are persuasive. It depends upon ones premise. The million dollar question is can salvation be lost.

Of course not (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14), apostasy is simply evidence of counterfeit faith (1 Jn 2:19).

 

[Eleanor]

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Will someone please explain how one can be a partaker of the Holy Ghost and not be saved?

Saul?

Not to mention "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come".

The same as Mt 7:22-23.

 

[Eleanor]

It is well above one’s pay grade to judge a man’s soul even if one disagrees with their doctrine. I would be willing to bet that most everything you know about Hagin is second hand info. Just my opinion.

Did not the facts presented demonstrate the conclusion?

 

[Eleanor]

I can judge a man by his doctrines, especially the doctrines of demons and the spirit of antichrist. God calls us to discern truth from error/lies. Hagin and Copeland teach the very spirit of antichrist as per 1 John 4:1-4 and 2 John 1:7. We are to beware of false prophets and expose them.

You can also judge
open sin in the body (1 Co 5:1:12-13),
rightly, by action (Jn 7:24), and
yourself (1 Co 11:31).

 

[civic]

Then how are they able to choose Christ of their own free will?

I will let it come straight from the horses mouth .

Jacob Arminius writes,

“IN the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with ‘righteousness and true holiness,’ and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen 1:26-27) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (Gen 2:17) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)



But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)



In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.” 6



Arminius further writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7

Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

 

[civic]

You can also judge
open sin in the body (1 Co 5:1:12-13),
rightly, by action (Jn 7:24), and
yourself (1 Co 11:31).

No disagreement there

 

[Eleanor]

@civic would probably recommend listening to John MacArthur. So would I.

https://www.gty.org/ is his site.

You can also find his podcast to play his sermons.


Here is something I think you would enjoy: https://macarthurcenter.org/the-expositor/

But you can find the above on podcasts in either apple or android formats.

Except for eschatology, I totally agree.

 

[Carbon]

Except for eschatology, I totally agree.

Same here.

 

[Eleanor]

What follows will be my take on things.

I am a firmly believe that before any book of the Bible is begun, time should be spent in the prelude which in a good study Bible will give the relevant information. And each time that book is begun no matter how many years we have been a Christian. It puts and keeps what follows in the book in its proper perspective, rather than isolated interpretation. And the study notes should be read.
Right but whoever the author is, what is his background. We learn from the text that he did not come to faith through direct contact with Jesus. but through the apostles teaching. (2:3-4),and that he knew Timothy. (13:23) etc.

Is he not saying in Heb 2:3-4 ("this salvation was confirmed to us by those who heard him") what he is saying in Gal 2:6-9 ("those men--leaders in Jerusalem--added nothing to my message, on the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles.")?
He not only knew Timothy, but the letter closes with the typical closing of Paul.
It appears to me that Paul took the pen in his own hand at 13:22. We know that Paul had a scribe, and maybe not always the same one.

Yes, but why did these particular Christian's need to hear these things? And Christian's they were, though like Paul and all the other writers and apostles, they were no doubt aware that there would be both true believers and those who were not among the recipients of the letter. We can surmise from the book itself that they were not in Israel and most likely were in Italy. We can surmise from the book itself and from historical documentation that they were undergoing persecution for their faith in Jesus and would be tempted to abandon the faith at least in practice for self preservation. The entire theological presentation from the OT showing the supremacy of Christ and the completion of His work, His sole and final position of mediator between God and man, was to strengthen their faith and encourage perseverance in it. In those verses being addressed in chapter 6, he author points out what drawing away from it would do.

Yes predominately, but also not necessarily exclusively. In any case the audience was familiar with the OT scriptures and the Jewish religious practices.

Until one understands Heb 3:7-4:11 correctly, where all the details therein fit the narrative precisely, one will not correctly understand Hebrews and its five stated warnings against apostasy.

 

[civic]

Except for eschatology, I totally agree.

I agree with his eschatology not his other theology now

 

[Carbon]

Who is a pastor/ evangelist you think I should listen to?

Voddie, Sinclair, Sproul

 

[Arial]

I will let it come straight from the horses mouth .

Jacob Arminius writes,

“IN the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with ‘righteousness and true holiness,’ and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen 1:26-27) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (Gen 2:17) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)



But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)



In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.” 6



Arminius further writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7

Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

A lot is left out of what Arminius taught. Both C'ism and A'ism agree that God must work in the human heart for anyone to be saved. Where they disagree is in the extent of God's involvement in decisions that affect salvation.

Arminists believe that God can only woo or plead but can never work in the human heart in such a way as to render the decision certain. From this comes the misinterpretation of those scriptures that say He died for all men or the whole world, making it to mean every individual ever, and a Redeemer who was for the most part ineffective, or universalism.
Calvinists insist that there are some decisions that are made certain because of God's purposes. No one chosen by God can fail to come to Christ. In this we have a Redeemer who accomplished exactly what He came to do and "all men" meaning all types of people, and the "whole world" meaning all nations and peoples (as well as the restored world which will be every individual in His kingdom.) We have a Redeemer who died for those God gave Him.

 

[civic]

A lot is left out of what Arminius taught. Both C'ism and A'ism agree that God must work in the human heart for anyone to be saved. Where they disagree is in the extent of God's involvement in decisions that affect salvation.

Arminists believe that God can only woo or plead but can never work in the human heart in such a way as to render the decision certain. From this comes the misinterpretation of those scriptures that say He died for all men or the whole world, making it to mean every individual ever, and a Redeemer who was for the most part ineffective, or universalism.
Calvinists insist that there are some decisions that are made certain because of God's purposes. No one chosen by God can fail to come to Christ. In this we have a Redeemer who accomplished exactly what He came to do and "all men" meaning all types of people, and the "whole world" meaning all nations and peoples (as well as the restored world which will be every individual in His kingdom.) We have a Redeemer who died for those God gave Him.

And that is a misrepresentation of classic Arminianism .

 

[Arial]

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Will someone please explain how one can be a partaker of the Holy Ghost and not be saved? Not to mention "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come".

See the big IF in verse six? Does "if" mean they did or is a warning to not do it? As a aid to grasping that I give an example of the word if in a similar context.

If you drive over that cliff you will not survive? Does that say someone did drive over the cliff or is it a warning not to.

How about this one? "If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will surely die." A warning with its consequences?

 

[Arial]

And that is a misrepresentation of classic Arminianism .

In what way?

 

[civic]

See the big IF in verse six? Does "if" mean they did or is a warning to not do it? As a aid to grasping that I give an example of the word if in a similar context.

If you drive over that cliff you will not survive? Does that say someone did drive over the cliff or is it a warning not to.

How about this one? "If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will surely die." A warning with its consequences?

Do you apply that same argument to all the “ if we say” passages in 1 John ?

 

[Arial]

Is he not saying in Heb 2:3-4 ("this salvation was confirmed to us by those who heard him") what he is saying in Gal 2:6-9 ("those men--leaders in Jerusalem--added nothing to my message, on the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles.")?
He not only knew Timothy, but the letter closes with the typical closing of Paul.
It appears to me that Paul took the pen in his own hand at 13:22. We know that Paul had a scribe, and maybe not always the same one.

Does that change anything? There is also much in the book that is not consistent with Paul's style. And Paul and the other apostles got their message from Jesus. Gal 1:12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Until one understands Heb 3:7-4:11 correctly, where all the details therein fit the narrative precisely, one will not correctly understand Hebrews and its five stated warnings against apostasy.

Do you mean until one has the same understanding and comes up with the same purpose of Heb 3:7-4:11 and draws the same conclusions that you do, they can't understand the warnings of Heb 6? In what way have I misunderstood them?

 

[Arial]

Do you apply that same argument to all the “ if we say” passages in 1 John ?

I would have to go read them to see what you are talking about and I don't have time right now. But I can tell you this much. I will apply them according to the context they are in, and in the context of all the teachings of scripture on the same subject.

 

[ReverendRV]

@ReverendRV Maybe you thought I was not the one who deleted the post. Well new day, seven hours of uninterrupted sleep and a few cups of coffee later, I am invigorated again. Sometimes I feel Christian and Theology forums are the devil's playground (and they certainly can be) where the people of Christ are tempted and yield to the hidden desires of our flesh that are not fully sanctified. It can either expose them to ourselves and we can go to God for both His mercy and His further sanctification, or they can remain hidden from us though they are quite visible to us in others.

But as with all social media platforms, and especially for the very young, who can completely lose sight of reality and who they are, we need to recognize when it is creating a distance within our own personal communion with God. When the life and power has gone out of His word for us, and in its place we have only knowledge.

Be encouraged...

Stay here and keep us straight...